P
You know, I have spent many years understanding concepts of theology, and this is one of them. Yes, the writers tell us about the infusion of grace, about the cleansing of baptism, etc. But all of that understanding does not help the rubber meet the road. Those writers understood something that is very problematic to our thinking - they understood that when a disciple of Jesus baptized you and laid his hands on you, that you were made a member of the Church, and member or citizen of the Kingdom which they represented. They understood that their decision to include you in God’s people was approved by God in heaven and by their King. They understood that God granted you his Grace and Spirit when they chose to include you in the Kingdom. The Church said, “Now you are one with us, a fellow Christian (imputed action by the Church)”. God and Christ in heaven said, “Now you are adopted, and an heir”, and God poured out his Spirit within you because of what he imputed to you. He gave you your new heart and his Spirit because of what he now regarded you to be (state). You were buried with Christ in Baptism (the death or end of the old state), and granted a new life (a new state with all the gifts that come with that state). The state “change” did happen at your baptism. The spiritual effect is all the gifts that God gives to those who are called by his name.Baptism is infused grace which effects real change in the soul. Regeneration is more than just a state, it is the transformation of the old creature into the new creature in Christ, a transformation from death unto life, a regeneration of the soul. It is not merely forensic or imputed. Grace is poured into our souls.
“Few truths are so clearly taught in the New Testament as the doctrine that in baptism God gives us grace. Again and again the sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22). They are unanimous in speaking of baptism in invariably efficient terms, as really bringing about a spiritual effect.” catholic.com/library/Baptismal_Grace.asp
“[we] are spiritually cleansed by the power of the sacrament of baptism. God’s saving word of grace is introduced into the soul, cleanses it of all sin, actual and original, and animates it with sanctifying grace, the very life of the Blessed Trinity.” Patrick Madrid
It could mean either or…when you are in the state of regeneration, it takes time for that regeneration process to be completed…God can regenerate you at the time of water baptisum if he so choose…or he can take his time if he so choose…God is soverien he canRegeneration is not a “process”, it is a “state”. As a member of the Church (citizen of the Kingdom God established / adopted as a son of God) you are regenerated as a status of who and what you are. The Church did that to you - gave you this new status - when it baptized you.
Well, yes, it “could” mean either if we had no direction on which it really meant. However, it is the teaching of the Church that regeneration happens at the instant of baptism:It could mean either or…when you are in the state of regeneration, it takes time for that regeneration process to be completed…God can regenerate you at the time of water baptisum if he so choose…or he can take his time if he so choose…God is soverien he can
do as he pleases.
I not saying regeneration couldn’t happen at the moment of baptisum, of course with God are things possible…but it useally doesen’t, if it did alot more people would be a living testamoney to christ of that regeneration would’nt it?Well, yes, it “could” mean either if we had no direction on which it really meant. However, it is the teaching of the Church that regeneration happens at the instant of baptism:
At that moment the person is purified from all sins, made into a new creature, an adopted son of God, a partaker of the divine nature, a member of Christ and co-heir with Him, and made into a temple of the Holy Spirit. We are made members of the Body of Christ - we are incorporated into the Church. We are born into the one People of God of the New Covenant which is more than all our natural or humanly established limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes.
All of this is from Articles 1265, 1266, and 1267 of your Catechism, which is written by our leaders who were appointed by our King, Jesus, to teach us the correct interpretation of things.
Salvation, fully defined, is being included and one with the People of God, now in His Kingdom on Earth, sacramentally with His Kingdom in Heaven, and eventually with Him in the resurrection. This is why I love what the Church did to me, baptizing me - they included me as one with them.
Actually, it does happen, always, at the moment of baptism. The prodigal son was still a son even though he was not living or looking like one. But with returning and confession, suddenly he looked like a son of his father again (although his older brother did not like it)I not saying regeneration couldn’t happen at the moment of baptisum, of course with God are things possible…but it useally doesen’t, if it did alot more people would be a living testamoney to christ of that regeneration would’nt it?
peace and clessings
You know, there is a difference between:I not saying regeneration couldn’t happen at the moment of baptisum, of course with God are things possible…but it useally doesen’t, if it did alot more people would be a living testamoney to christ of that regeneration would’nt it?
Regeneration is constant state/processes of moving forward…paul likens as a race toward the prise at the finish of the race. What is the prise?,I would think it would be salvation.Actually, it does happen, always, at the moment of baptism. The prodigal son was still a son even though he was not living or looking like one. But with returning and confession, suddenly he looked like a son of his father again (although his older brother did not like it)
1.) John 3:16 says that belief in Jesus saves us, and doesn't mention baptism
2.) What about the theif on the cross? He wasn't baptised, and was given salvation
So does this man go to hell? The bible tells us God is just, I would have to say that the man is given salvation, because similar to the theif on the cross he understands his helpless state of being and asks Christ to forgive him.
FanOfU2, I invite you to search the scriptures a little more. Read carefully and in proper context John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21. Note that in every instance where a person was saved in the New Testament (except the thief on the cross) that baptism was the first thing they did. Also note that the baptisms weren’t always public–so much for “outward expression.” If you are going to deny that there is salvific effect in baptism, you must discard many chapters of scripture.Hello everyone at Catholic Answers.
I am currently a Christian who happens to worship under the Southern Baptist denomination.
I am also in a bad place. I feel like something is drawing me to the Catholic Church, however my parents are Southern Baptist and my father is a deacon.
There are a lot of Southern Baptist doctrines I don’t agree with (Real Presence, sola scriptura, church voting for members baptism).
…Okay, my main spill. Before I become a Catholic, it will really be hard to accept the baptismal regeneration doctrine.
An interesting way of looking at baptism my dad described me:Code:1.) John 3:16 says that belief in Jesus saves us, and doesn't mention baptism 2.) What about the theif on the cross? He wasn't baptised, and was given salvation
“Suppose a non-Christian man is on a trip in an airplane. The plane experiences engine failure and starts to crash. The man immediately and sincerely asks Jesus to save him before he dies”
However Baptism is essential to being a Christian. “Outward expression of an inward change” as my pastor puts it. However, I just can’t believe that Baptism saves us, I believe it is Christ’s work alone that saves us.Code:So does this man go to hell? The bible tells us God is just, I would have to say that the man is given salvation, because similar to the theif on the cross he understands his helpless state of being and asks Christ to forgive him.
pax