Born again at baptism: an essay

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I’ll read yours if you read this one!

carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation
That’s a fair deal. Actually, I’ll come right out and say that you’re being kind as that one is quite a bit shorter than mine. I’ve read several articles by Matt Slick and others refuting baptismal regeneration. I’m not sure if I’ve read that one specifically, but either way I’ll read it again even if I have.

Obviously since I’m writing essays on the subject, I’m pretty set in my ways. However, I’ll try to be as open-minded as possible (something I always attempt to do).
 
Yes there is a physical aspect to baptisum, the act itshelf is physical act and that is only for the physical world to see …but the act itshelf points toward the spirtural side…which is more important…your physical body as it is now will never inherit the kingdom God…but your new spirtural body will.

Peace and blessing
Yes, the world sees that we are physically baptized, and like Nicodemus they do not see anything happening. However, I do see the Kingdom that God established and I do see that this Kingdom granted me citizenship when it baptized me. Like the Ethiopian in Acts I rejoice to have been baptized physically, because that is exactly what I want - to be a citizen in this Kingdom, with Jesus as my King, Benedict as my prime minister, John as my Bishop, Don and Mark as my pastors. I am one with them, one with Jesus, one with Peter, one with Mary, and one with my Father in heaven.

I see the Kingdom, right here, right now; it is not a theory of regeneration - it is actual.
 
I’ll read yours if you read this one!

carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation
Well, not a Catholic article, to be sure.
His last paragraph - baptism as a seal of the covenant is correct, yet that makes it necessary.
Also, baptism is a work, and a work that is necessary for being in the Kingdom that Jesus began. However, it is not ‘my’ work. I did not baptize myself; the Church baptized me, granting me entrance into this Kingdom - I want to be in this Kingdom, but there is nothing I could do to be in it - absolutely no work I could do to be part of Christ. So, I did no works, yet baptism is necessary to joined to Christ. A work is necessary - I can’t do the work… What am I to do? Well, the representatives of Christ (therefore Christ) did the needed work - they baptized me, they included me in his covenant. So, I was not saved by works of my flesh, but I was saved by a work of Christ’s own hands (“though Jesus himself did not baptize anyone, but his disciples did”)
 
RJ,

Like I challenged you before. Can you show me any historical evidence that your definition of Baptism was taught by the Apostles and passed on by them in Church history? Your quote is definitive, and I am only asking you to provide historical evidence that this is what was taught by the Apostles, and those who came after them, and so on.

“Yes there is a physical aspect to baptisum, the act itshelf is physical act and that is only for the physical world to see …but the act itshelf points toward the spirtural side…which is more important…your physical body as it is now will never inherit the kingdom God…but your new spirtural body will.”

What Apostle taught this about Baptism? Where and when and to whom?

To answer your “if you say you love Jesus,…” This is not the point we were discussing. We were discussing the meaning behind Baptism, not the fact that people get Baptised.
A good studie of gods word will back me up on this…we must search the scripture daily.

God loves you…God bless
 
A good studie of gods word will back me up on this…we must search the scripture daily.

God loves you…God bless
RJ,

These are true statements but do not answer my question. Can you show me any historical evidence that your definition of Baptism was taught by the Apostles and passed on to the next generation of Christians. This is a yes/no question.

Thank you.
 
Hi all,
A while back I noticed a string of threads regarding baptismal regeneration and it seemed like they all started from ground level. The basics of Catholic teaching had to be restated each time. I didn’t know of any internet article that gave a comprehensive overview of Catholic teaching on baptism, arguments for baptismal regeneration, and answered questions to common arguments against baptism. Most of them covered one aspect or another fairly quickly.

So I decided to write the article myself. At first I wanted it to be fairly short along with being comprehensive, but after a while, I gave up on it being short. It’s probably about a two hour read. Longer than a lot of people will be willing to read, but at least it’s not book length and it’s free online. It discusses a lot of Old Testament baptismal types (like Noah, the Red Sea, Jonah, Elijah, etc), the key New Testament texts, and the Church fathers, along with describing basic Catholic teaching and answering common questions about baptism.

So here it is:
Regeneration – Born Again at Baptism

I hope it’s of value to Catholics on here. Likewise, for those who don’t believe in baptismal regeneration, it’ll provide a backdrop for our conversation so we don’t have to start at the very beginning and will hopefully have a more fruitful and interesting dialogue. Fellow Catholics, too, might disagree with my interpretation of some of the texts. We could discuss those, as well.

If you read it and like it, you might let others know that it is worth their time (if you don’t like, just move along… 😉 )
Very good! I still need to read it again

but some comments:
John’s baptism a figure of Jesus’ baptism you might like to add:
"Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, ** “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus**. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all." biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV

Where you mention:
“The Catholic Church teaches that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. The Church also teaches that we receive the Holy Spirit again in what eventually became known as the Sacrament of Confirmation, which the Church teaches “completes” baptism (Catechism 1304).”

It might be nice to explain how can we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism then again in Confirmation.
What might be more clear is that we receive the Holy Trinity, instead of stressing the Holy Spirit (as a person) and that we become adopted Sons of God. This is why the point of the Mark/seal of baptism is so important. By this mark in Baptism we are now in a special relationship to the second person, thus participating in the sonship of the Second Person of the Trinity. In confirmation we receive another mark which puts us in a special relationship to the person of the Holy Spirit, thus participating in His activity in a special way by the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.

The Good Thief part:

The Sacraments were not necessary before the birth of the Church,ie- Pentecost. This is why we call Pentecost the birthday of the Church because from that moment on the sacraments became a requirement. The thief was a circumcised Jew so he was already initiated into the People of God. In the same way circumcision was not required before Abraham revealed it as necessary for men in the People of God. Circumcision was a blessing because it was for Abraham household not just for decedents of Seth/Noah/Shem blood line.

The Old Testament salvation was manifested not only by faith but combined by first bloodline, then by marriage, then by circumcision, then by submission to the God’s kingdom (David, Solomon).
 
No one is “born” into Jesus’ kingdom by human birth – you were not born a Catholic. Babies are not “automatically” Christians.
People who desire to be in Jesus’ kingdom are accepted in, baptized into citizenship
However, since its beginnings, the Church has always welcomed whole families into citizenship together, baptizing children, teaching them as they grow up about the true nature of the kingdom of God – that they are part of it on earth and will be part of it when their King returns to claim them.
If we do not baptize our children, then we cannot comfort them by saying, “you are Jesus’ brother / sister”, “you are one of his people”, “Jesus chose you and made you his own”, etc. Instead we would have to say to them, “When you are old enough to choose for yourself, then you can be a part of Jesus’ kingdom, but you cannot be a part of his people yet because you cannot think clearly yet until you reach a certain age.”
That may sound cruel, but the kingdom is here, and it has a physical point of entrance (baptism) – don’t hold back your child / baby from being brought into the kingdom, and then learning to know who their king is.
Jesus declared the same when people brought babies and children to him (Luke 18:15-17) – his Kingdom belongs to them and all who receive it like they do. Jesus rebuked his disciples for stopping these parents, so since then the Church does not refuse citizenship to babies and children who are brought to Jesus’ Kingdom by their parents. The Church grants this blessing of citizenship to the babies and children by baptizing them, and then teaches them about their King as they grow.
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 Ahh....ok first of all here...in Luke 18 Jesus is speaking of the "little children" to illustrate that a person must have a child like faith to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  "The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to [such as these]" verse 16.  "Such as these" refers to those who are "like children" not those who are.  Those who have the faith and humility such as the "little children" will enter. Jesus speaks of this in Matt 18--  3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.(Matt 18:3-6) Notice that Jesus is talking about the children who “believe in Him”. They are not clueless babies. And John 3:16 states: “and whosoever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life”. Its simple to understand, but again, the constant focus on the “physical” and disreguard for the point…which is Spiritual Truth…is a major stumbling block for catholic theology on almost every biblical principal.
Second, and more important. The book of Acts says that: Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the fogiveness of your sins. And you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39) The Apostles make it clear that we are to Repent and be Baptized, and that this command was for those listening, and the generation after them, and the generations to come, and all generations in the future, all who would recieve the Lord. Baptism is a choice made by a repentant sinner who needs a savior…its a physical act yes, but its done for its spiritual significance.
 
Ahh…ok first of all here…in Luke 18 Jesus is speaking of the “little children” to illustrate that a person must have a child like faith to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. “The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to [such as these]” verse 16. “Such as these” refers to those who are “like children” not those who are. Those who have the faith and humility such as the “little children” will enter. Jesus speaks of this in Matt 18-- 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.(Matt 18:3-6) Notice that Jesus is talking about the children who “believe in Him”. They are not clueless babies. And John 3:16 states: “and whosoever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life”. Its simple to understand, but again, the constant focus on the “physical” and disreguard for the point…which is Spiritual Truth…is a major stumbling block for catholic theology on almost every biblical principal.
Second, and more important. The book of Acts says that: Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the fogiveness of your sins. And you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39) The Apostles make it clear that we are to Repent and be Baptized, and that this command was for those listening, and the generation after them, and the generations to come, and all generations in the future, all who would recieve the Lord. Baptism is a choice made by a repentant sinner who needs a savior…its a physical act yes, but its done for its spiritual significance.
But St.Paul compared Baptism to circumcision as Captain points out in his fine paper:
I"In the following passage, Paul wrote about the meaning of circumcision, and linked it to baptism:
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...and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.  In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.  And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.  (Col 2:10-14)" [bornagainatbaptism.blogspot.com/](http://bornagainatbaptism.blogspot.com/)
Circumcision was for male children 8 days old or older. St. Aquinas makes the argument in his Summa that they received Sanctifying Grace at the time of circumcision in anticipation of Christ’s coming.
If I understand your point correctly, you are saying that the Old testament was more generous than the New by accepting 8 day old children into the Old Covenant while you hold the the New doesn’t care for the children till they can repent? Is that right?
 
If a person was reborn at water baptisum, would there not be evidence of that rebirth in there life…thru producing of spirtural fruit amonst other things?

God bless
 
Ahh…ok first of all here…in Luke 18 Jesus is speaking of the “little children” to illustrate that a person must have a child like faith to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. “The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to [such as these]” verse 16. “Such as these” refers to those who are “like children” not those who are. Those who have the faith and humility such as the “little children” will enter. .
As I said in a post above, the Church granted me citizenship in the Kingdom which God established. You are correct that little children are not part of the Kingdom simply because they are children with a child’s faith. No, those children were not part of the Kingdom when their parents were trying to bring them to Jesus. Actually, they only became citizens of the Kingdom after Jesus told his disciples to let them come to him; he granted them citizenship (as the King) . That is why he required the disciples not to hold them back.

Baptism is not a work we do; it is done to us by the correctly reprimanded disciples. They grant us admission into Christ’s Kingdom. It is here and in heaven (the pilgrim Church and the Church Triumphant). We are wandering citizens now, aliens in the countries where we live, but then we will have our homeland in the new Jerusalem with our King. This is the Catholic Church.
 
If a person was reborn at water baptisum, would there not be evidence of that rebirth in there life…thru producing of spirtural fruit amonst other things?

God bless
Rebirth -
I was born a citizen of the United States. Whether or not I was a “patriotic American” (or, I could say, a “faithful American”, to maintain the parallel) did not change the fact that I was an American.
Then I was Baptized by the Church - suddenly I was a citizen of the Kingdom of God. Whether or not I was faithful, I still had that identity of being a Christian, a citizen. Not only did they baptize me, but the Church also worked at the rest of the work Jesus told them to do when making someone a Christian - they taught me. And they confirmed me, confirmed that I was one of them, and layed their hands on me.

Re-birth - I was born into a new identity of citizenship in a Nation that you cannot get into yourself, no matter how much you might want to. The Church has to baptize you - that is your entry into this new life as a citizen of the Kingdom Christ established. It is “Spiritual Rebirth” because now I call God my Father and Jesus is my Lord (my King), and no one can do that except by the Holy Spirit.

Now, what shall I do as a citizen of this Kingdom? I shall go to mass - citizens meet together for nourishment of the Word and of the Sacraments and meet together so they know they are not alone. Citizens do justice without being asked (or without being forced by courts). Citizens help one another. Citizens are evidence in the world that Christ’s Kingdom is true.

Some people, it is true, do not behave this way after gaining citizenship in the Church. But, as Paul writes, those who do these things have no inheritance in the Kingdom. We all really know this. And so we encourage those who appear to be throwing away their inheritance. The prodigal son was a son, but he had squandered his inheritance, thrown it away and was dead. When he came to his senses his father said, “He was dead, but now is alive” - so we encourage our brothers and sisters, our fellow citizens.
 
Some people, it is true, do not behave this way after gaining citizenship in the Church. But, as Paul writes, those who do these things have no inheritance in the Kingdom. We all really know this. And so we encourage those who appear to be throwing away their inheritance. The prodigal son was a son, but he had squandered his inheritance, thrown it away and was dead. When he came to his senses his father said, “He was dead, but now is alive” - so we encourage our brothers and sisters, our fellow citizens.]

So you do need evidence to show that you are citizen of the kingdom of God…so water baptisum does not always give you that guranttee of citizenship onto salvation…Paul said it himshelf.

God loves you…God bless
 
“Baptism is, literally, a new birth that makes the person a Christian in his very being, no matter how well or how poorly he lives out his faith.” Michelle Arnold

If you are properly baptized in the name of the triune God, that is sufficient evidence that you are a Christian and no one can ever change that status as a Christian and member of God’s family. But not all Christians will go to heaven (or purgatory) after death if they have not confessed and repented of their mortal sins while on earth.
 
Some people, it is true, do not behave this way after gaining citizenship in the Church. But, as Paul writes, those who do these things have no inheritance in the Kingdom. We all really know this. And so we encourage those who appear to be throwing away their inheritance. The prodigal son was a son, but he had squandered his inheritance, thrown it away and was dead. When he came to his senses his father said, “He was dead, but now is alive” - so we encourage our brothers and sisters, our fellow citizens.

So you do need evidence to show that you are citizen of the kingdom of God…so water baptisum does not always give you that guranttee of citizenship onto salvation…Paul said it himshelf.
Well, you are speaking about going to heaven, to receiving your inheritance. I am in the world, and speaking about “earthly things”.

The Kingdom is here on earth, in the world where you and I are. Baptism was our entrance into this Kingdom established by God with his Son as its King. I am granted the right to participate in the functions and benefits of the Kingdom on earth in virtue of being baptized and confirmed and leading a life (outwardly) conforming to the way a Christian acts. (no one can see my heart, that is why I say “outwardly”)
So, I am a member of this People of God, People established by God, right now, on earth. I am not an outsider looking in. That is my salvation - where once I was not one of the People of God, but now I am, here on earth. The Church saved me by baptizing me, by taking me in as one of them, as one with them.

This is what I wanted, craved. But a person who wants to be his own god, wants to live in greed, wants to live in immorality, wants to live in jealousy, - this person does not want or crave to be joined to this People of God. This person leaves the presence of the the Church because in the presence of the Church he can see his sin (and others can see it) and he prefers that his sin not be seen (loves the darkness rather than the light). He does not want to be “saved”, meaning he does not want to be joined to the People of God. He wants the “inheritance” or “reward” that he is gaining for himself as his own god. Even if he was saved, joined to this People who inherit from God, but then wants to go off seeking his own reward, he gives up wanting to be a “saved” person, he gives up wanting to have the inheritance stored for him by God, and he “leaves” the presence of the People of God to have his own, self-made inheritance, leaves his salvation for self-salvation, for self-life.

But, back to us; we want to be part of Christ, citizens of his Kingdom, children of his Father. And we are, because the Church gave us this relationship by baptizing us. We were called (with the good knews of the Kingdom), we were chosen (by the Church deciding to baptize us), and we are also sanctified as an ongoing activity of the Church (through which the Spirit of Christ acts on us) with Word and Sacraments.

When we go to confession, we are actually going to Jesus when we go to the Priest. I actually say to my priest, “I regard that I am speaking to Jesus when I am confessing to you; right now you are Jesus and I want to tell you about myself.” I am saying to Jesus: “I want to follow you and be with you in this Kingdom of yours; but you need to know what I am; you need to be aware of who I am, of my sin against you and your Father. I have sinned in these things…, …, … My King, do you still want me, knowing all you now know about me?” and to the priest, “Father, can you forgive me and still let me remain in union with the Church, knowing my sin?”
And then I hear the absolution. Jesus is saying to me, “John, yes, you are one with me; I am not going to hold your past against you. Come on, lets go and do the works that are from God and leave off the works men do to gain their own rewards”.
Penance: The priest asks me to do things - what is this? Not punishment; he is asking me to do things that citizens of the Kingdom naturally do (pray, be reconciled to someone, do some acts of charity, etc.) He is giving me things to do to gain practice at living the life of a Christian (the old saying that “practice makes perfect” - he is giving me practice at living my life in the Kingdom, thus sanctification).

So, how is Baptism a “guarantee”? I know that the Catholic Church is a Kingdom, not simply a religion. If I am a member, a citizen, then the future of that Body is my future. This Kingdom is actually eternal, not ending in death, cannot be destroyed the way nations established by men can be destroyed by other nations. The Guarantee is a combination of being baptized PLUS what you believe about the Church that baptized you. Is the Church really established by God, really his Kingdom on earth, and really eternal, and really the place where you want to be to share its future. For me, it is totally real, and that is why I treasure my Baptism, my adoption into this People.
Our King prayed that his Father would keep us safe while being in the world but not of the world.
 
Well said but I would add to citizenship-- sonship. We receive the Baptismal seal on our souls that gives us the ability us to participate as adopted sons, in the Sonship of the Second person of the Trinity, It gives the ability to participate in the sacraments. If we go to hell we would still be sons just ones that have rejected our inheritance.
 
Yes The kingdom of God is here on earth, but it is only a shadow of the kingdom to come… that will be glourious…God will also fully reveal himshelf at the time also.

God loves you…God bless
 
Very good! I still need to read it again

but some comments:
John’s baptism a figure of Jesus’ baptism you might like to add:
"Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, ** “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus**. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all." biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19&version=NIV

Where you mention:
“The Catholic Church teaches that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. The Church also teaches that we receive the Holy Spirit again in what eventually became known as the Sacrament of Confirmation, which the Church teaches “completes” baptism (Catechism 1304).”

It might be nice to explain how can we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism then again in Confirmation.
What might be more clear is that we receive the Holy Trinity, instead of stressing the Holy Spirit (as a person) and that we become adopted Sons of God. This is why the point of the Mark/seal of baptism is so important. By this mark in Baptism we are now in a special relationship to the second person, thus participating in the sonship of the Second Person of the Trinity. In confirmation we receive another mark which puts us in a special relationship to the person of the Holy Spirit, thus participating in His activity in a special way by the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit.

The Good Thief part:

The Sacraments were not necessary before the birth of the Church,ie- Pentecost. This is why we call Pentecost the birthday of the Church because from that moment on the sacraments became a requirement. The thief was a circumcised Jew so he was already initiated into the People of God. In the same way circumcision was not required before Abraham revealed it as necessary for men in the People of God. Circumcision was a blessing because it was for Abraham household not just for decedents of Seth/Noah/Shem blood line.

The Old Testament salvation was manifested not only by faith but combined by first bloodline, then by marriage, then by circumcision, then by submission to the God’s kingdom (David, Solomon).
Thanks for the advice! It’s nice to have a place to go for some peer review. I expanded the section on John the Baptist a bit to include Paul’s clarifying statement regarding the baptism of John.

Regarding baptism not being necessary until Pentecost, I almost included it, but I couldn’t find any official teaching on the subject. It seemed like some people believed that baptism became binding for us at Pentecost, while others believe that it became binding when Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize (Matt 28). Either way, I suppose, most of God’s people throughout the world who died after Pentecost must have been saved through the baptism of desire since it must have taken a while for the message to diffuse.

Anyway, I guess that I was a little soft on the specifics and didn’t want to go out on a limb.
 
Yes The kingdom of God is here on earth, but it is only a shadow of the kingdom to come… that will be glourious…God will also fully reveal himshelf at the time also.

God loves you…God bless
Hi Rjmusseau,
Since I haven’t gotten any feedback from anybody who opposes baptismal regeneration, I was wondering if you had any criticisms of some specific arguments. Or perhaps there were some aspects of the essay that you found convincing? Thanks!
 
in a nutshell what your saying is that at water baptisum, you are born again and the regeneration process begins at that point, and not before?

peace and blessings
 
in a nutshell what your saying is that at water baptisum, you are born again and the regeneration process begins at that point, and not before?

peace and blessings
Regeneration is not a “process”, it is a “state”. As a member of the Church (citizen of the Kingdom God established / adopted as a son of God) you are regenerated as a status of who and what you are. The Church did that to you - gave you this new status - when it baptized you.
 
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