"Born Again" Catholic?

[ChristMySavior]

Hi all, I’m wondering if you could help me with this.

I was at dinner last night with my girlfriend’s family who are Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin types). I of course, was the only Catholic present and the topic came up of her mom saying that she would never accept a son-in-law that wasn’t a “born-again Christian.” So I said, I’m not a born-again Christian, I am a Roman Catholic Christian [knowing that this would stir up some confusion because I don’t really want to be labeled a “born-again Christian” in the sense that we label certain Protestants that way]. So anyway, then the whole thing came up that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and blah blah blah, all their fun Pentecostal beliefs. So I proceeded to say that I was saved at my Baptism, and while I was saved, I can lose my salvation because of my will and if I were to sin and not repent. So that set them off and they started attacking me saying that it doesn’t say in the bible that Baptism saves, but it does say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior does. I said to refer to 1 Peter 3:21 where it says that “Baptism now saves you.” They outwardly denied the scripture. They kept saying no no no, that doesn’t exist, it’s not true, it doesn’t say that, blah blah. Her sister also said that you can’t take one verse of scripture out of context and that there are other scripture passages stating otherwise. I asked her if she was saying that scripture is contradicting because it clearly states that baptism saves. You can’t deny that. So I took out my trusty iPhone and pulled up 1 Peter 3:18-22 and let her my girlfriend’s sister read it and she said, “oh.”

So, I know that there are tons of scripture verses that I could have used. Unfortunately, I’m no apologist (though I hope to be some day) and I want to prove that water baptism saves and I also want to disprove that their whole you MUST accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (while of course Catholics do) by saying the “sinners prayer” or whatever is false or unbiblical if possible.

I was so annoyed but kept my cool. My gf’s brother-in-law also proceeded to say that there is no “correct” religion. What he meant was that there is no absolute 100% truth in any Protestant denomination or Catholicism. I know this is obviously a ridiculous thought but I didn’t want to get into that. I’ll save that for another day.

I find it funny that protestants are SOO much more well versed in scripture yet most don’t know of this scripture passage from 1 Peter. Interesting. Someone please help!!

 

[Belloc_Fan]

I’m glad you pointed out the verses about Baptism, and that’s a good conversation to have. But you want to be careful about not negating or denying things that are true. As Roman Catholic Christians we are born again… through Baptism. One of the first references you see of Christians referring to themselves as born again is in Catholic work. So, for example, at the Council of Trent, Sixth Session:

For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just.

So you must be born again to be saved. And this being born again is by the washing of water and the word, in Baptism:

And this translation [from sinner to justified], since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So don’t be afraid to acknowledge yourself as a born-again Christian, provided you have the Catholic understanding of it.

 

[Tomster]

Hi all, I’m wondering if you could help me with this.

I was at dinner last night with my girlfriend’s family who are Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin types). I of course, was the only Catholic present and the topic came up of her mom saying that she would never accept a son-in-law that wasn’t a “born-again Christian.” So I said, I’m not a born-again Christian, I am a Roman Catholic Christian [knowing that this would stir up some confusion because I don’t really want to be labeled a “born-again Christian” in the sense that we label certain Protestants that way]. So anyway, then the whole thing came up that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and blah blah blah, all their fun Pentecostal beliefs. So I proceeded to say that I was saved at my Baptism, and while I was saved, I can lose my salvation because of my will and if I were to sin and not repent. So that set them off and they started attacking me saying that it doesn’t say in the bible that Baptism saves, but it does say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior does. I said to refer to 1 Peter 3:21 where it says that “Baptism now saves you.” They outwardly denied the scripture. They kept saying no no no, that doesn’t exist, it’s not true, it doesn’t say that, blah blah. Her sister also said that you can’t take one verse of scripture out of context and that there are other scripture passages stating otherwise. I asked her if she was saying that scripture is contradicting because it clearly states that baptism saves. You can’t deny that. So I took out my trusty iPhone and pulled up 1 Peter 3:18-22 and let her my girlfriend’s sister read it and she said, “oh.”

So, I know that there are tons of scripture verses that I could have used. Unfortunately, I’m no apologist (though I hope to be some day) and I want to prove that water baptism saves and I also want to disprove that their whole you MUST accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (while of course Catholics do) by saying the “sinners prayer” or whatever is false or unbiblical if possible.

I was so annoyed but kept my cool. My gf’s brother-in-law also proceeded to say that there is no “correct” religion. What he meant was that there is no absolute 100% truth in any Protestant denomination or Catholicism. I know this is obviously a ridiculous thought but I didn’t want to get into that. I’ll save that for another day.

I find it funny that protestants are SOO much more well versed in scripture yet most don’t know of this scripture passage from 1 Peter. Interesting. Someone please help!!

Just a couple of quotes for you.

The first comes from a pamphlet titled “God’s Simple Plan of Salvation” (GSPS). In it, it states: “You must be born again. Realize you are a sinner. Believe on Him as the one who died in your place, was buried and was raised for your justification. Call upon Him. Lift your heart to God in prayer. Just say: Oh God, I am a sinner, I am sorry, I repent, have mercy upon me, and save me for Jesus’ sake. Now just take Him at His Word. Claim salvation by faith.”

The second consists of three Scripture verses: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole mind . . . thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself (Matthew 22:37-39). If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election (2 Peter 1:10).

The GSPS plan is simple and easy. The biblical plan, God’s plan, is simple but hard.

Note that there are no references in the GSPS plan to bible texts. This is because these words are not in the bible.

The reader of God’s Simple Plan of Salvation would be well advised to remember that when we are judged, we will stand before Christ our Lord. He, not the writers of GSPS, will judge us. It is His standards we will be measured against, not theirs. It is true that He alone can save us. The prudent soul will make an earnest effort to determine what it is “he” has to do, so that He “will”.

Those of us who find the GSPS tract depressing can take comfort in the fact that there is a real Bible-believing Church, the Catholic Church, which, with God’s real plan of salvation in hand, does know the way to heaven.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[ChristMySavior]

I’m glad you pointed out the verses about Baptism, and that’s a good conversation to have. But you want to be careful about not negating or denying things that are true. As Roman Catholic Christians we are born again… through Baptism. One of the first references you see of Christians referring to themselves as born again is in Catholic work. So, for example, at the Council of Trent, Sixth Session:

So you must be born again to be saved. And this being born again is by the washing of water and the word, in Baptism:

So don’t be afraid to acknowledge yourself as a born-again Christian, provided you have the Catholic understanding of it.

Great, thank you Belloc Fan! I knew that I could consider myself born again Christian but when I think of a born again Christian, I think of a Protestant who believes in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. It isn’t true and I know that, it’s just a label I have put on it that I need to get over, lol. I really do thank you for the insight though and from now on, if asked, I will say, yes I am a born again Catholic Christian from the time of my baptism when I got saved =)

 

[ChristMySavior]

Just a couple of quotes for you.

The first comes from a pamphlet titled “God’s Simple Plan of Salvation” (GSPS). In it, it states: “You must be born again. Realize you are a sinner. Believe on Him as the one who died in your place, was buried and was raised for your justification. Call upon Him. Lift your heart to God in prayer. Just say: Oh God, I am a sinner, I am sorry, I repent, have mercy upon me, and save me for Jesus’ sake. Now just take Him at His Word. Claim salvation by faith.”

The second consists of three Scripture verses: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole mind . . . thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself (Matthew 22:37-39). If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election (2 Peter 1:10).

The GSPS plan is simple and easy. The biblical plan, God’s plan, is simple but hard.

Note that there are no references in the GSPS plan to bible texts. This is because these words are not in the bible.

The reader of God’s Simple Plan of Salvation would be well advised to remember that when we are judged, we will stand before Christ our Lord. He, not the writers of GSPS, will judge us. It is His standards we will be measured against, not theirs. It is true that He alone can save us. The prudent soul will make an earnest effort to determine what it is “he” has to do, so that He “will”.

Those of us who find the GSPS tract depressing can take comfort in the fact that there is a real Bible-believing Church, the Catholic Church, which, with God’s real plan of salvation in hand, does know the way to heaven.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

It does help, thank you Tomster. The GSPS sounds like a tract or pamphlet their church would give out. If I ever see it or if they ever ask again, I will pose those questions to them. Thanks again!

 

[EricFilmer]

For the sake of harmony with your girlfriend’s family, I think certain things about baptism and salvation could be emphasized in your conversations with them:

1. Make sure they understand that Catholics believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that this is the one and only reason that anyone gets into heaven.
2. Catholics do not see a water baptism as a substitute for belief in Christ. Rather, belief in Christ is part of it. For example, before an adult is baptized, the priest or deacon goes through the Nicene Creed and asks the person if he believes in the elements therein. In terms of an infant baptism, the parents and godparents are to express belief in the Creed on behalf of the child (as well as promising to raise the child in the Christian Faith as expressed in the Creed). Your girlfriend’s family will probably have issues with baptizing infants, but you can simply state that such a thing is another topic for another day. The point being made here is that in the Catholic rituals for baptism, expressing belief in Christ immediately precedes the water baptism.

If you want to specifically show this to them, get your hands on a Rites One book (maybe you can borrow it from your parish or copy the relevant pages; in terms of borrowing it, your parish may even have lending library with a copy of it). Different English editions may have different page numbers, so look for these paragraph numbers instead (which are universal): Section for “Christian Initiation for Adults” #223-226, and Section for “Baptism for Children” #56-60.

In light of all this, show your girlfriend’s family the Nicene Creed and ask them if there is any element of their belief in accepting Jesus as ones personal Lord and Savior that is not found within the Creed. If they stress the importance of the term “personal”, then point out that each individual Catholic is required to personally believe in the Creed, or risk falling into a state of heresy. So our use of the Nicene Creed does, indeed, express a personal belief in Christ, and also recognizes him as being both Lord and Savior.

1. And finally, in your discussions with them, it would be good to point out that what you are all basically doing is debating interpretations of Scripture. As we all know, this is a blessed thing in and of itself, because there are lots of Christians out there who never bother to read the Bible or truly seek to understand it. So even though your girlfriend found a guy who does not accept all the interpretations of Scripture that her family does, she did find a guy who cares about what the Bible says, and cares about living his understanding of the Christian Faith.

There are lots of people out there who profess to be Christians but are actually more like “neo-pagans.” As soon as a group of people start talking about Jesus and living the Christian Faith, they roll their eyes in boredom, leave to get a beer and look for another group of people to either talk about sports or gossip about their neighbors. So your girlfriend did not find such a guy, but instead found someone who is willing to open the Bible and discuss it. I think they should at least be happy about that.

 

[thistle]

All of the following show that baptism is not symbolic and it is necessary to be baptised to be saved. Of course although baptism is necessary for salvation it does not mean that being baptised is sufficient for salvation. The baptised are only saved if they die in a state of grace.
None of the scripture below says that we are saved only by believing in Christ.

Acts 2:38 Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Acts 22:16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’

Romans 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

1 Cor 6:10-11 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[ChristMySavior]

For the sake of harmony with your girlfriend’s family, I think certain things about Baptism and salvation could be emphasized in your conversations with them:

1. Make sure they understand that Catholics believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that this is the one and only reason that anyone gets into heaven.
2. Catholics do not see a water baptism as a substitute for belief in Christ. Rather, belief in Christ is part of it. For example, before an adult is baptized, the priest or deacon goes through the Nicene Creed and asks the person if he believes in the elements therein. In terms of an infant baptism, the parents and godparents are to express belief in the Creed on behalf of the child (as well as promising to raise the child in the Christian Faith).

If you want to specifically show this to them, get your hands on a Rites One book (maybe you can borrow it from your parish or copy the relevant pages; in terms of borrowing it, your parish may even have lending library with a copy of it). Different English editions may have different page numbers, so look for these paragraph numbers instead (which are universal): Section for “Christian Initiation for Adults” #223-226, and Section for “Baptism for Children” #56-60.

In light of all this, show your girlfriend’s family the Nicene Creed and ask them if there is any element of their belief in accepting Jesus as ones personal Lord and Savior that is not found within the Creed. If they stress the importance of the term “personal”, then point out that each individual Catholic is required to personally believe in the Creed, or risk falling into a state of heresy. So our use of the Nicene Creed does, indeed, express a personal belief in Christ, and also recognizes him as being both Lord and Savior.

1. And finally, in your discussions with them, it would be good to point out that what you are all basically doing is debating interpretations of Scripture. As we all know, this is a blessed thing in and of itself, because there are lots of Christians out there who never bother to read the Bible or truly seek to understand it. So even though your girlfriend found a guy who does not accept all the interpretations of Scripture that her family does, she did find a guy who cares about what the Bible says, and cares about living his understanding of the Christian Faith.

Thanks a lot Eric, really good stuff. I will share. I did point out though to my gf (who is currently questioning her Protestant faith having been exposed to mass) that I find it interesting that ALL of them never read or were never taught the passage of scripture (1 Peter 3:21) where it clearly states that Baptism is the mode for salvation. Like you said, and what I should have said, is that in and through Baptism, we declare our profession of faith.

 

[ChristMySavior]

All of the following show that baptism is not symbolic and it is necessary to be baptised to be saved. Of course although baptism is necessary for salvation it does not mean that being baptised is sufficient for salvation. The baptised are only saved if they die in a state of grace.
None of the scripture below says that we are saved only by believing in Christ.

Acts 2:38 Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Acts 22:16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’

Romans 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

1 Cor 6:10-11 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Awesome, thank you!

 

[Barbkw]

In Acts 10: 1-49, Peter and Cornelius the Centurian receive their united visions. The first thing Peter does is to provide baptism through water and the Holy Spirit.

P.S. Don’t be surprised that words spoken by Peter and the actions that surround him are dismissed by protestant denominations. That is a hangover from the Reformation.

 

[ChristMySavior]

In Acts 10: 1-49, Peter and Cornelius the Centurian receive their united visions. The first thing Peter does is to provide baptism through water and the Holy Spirit.

P.S. Don’t be surprised that words spoken by Peter and the actions that surround him are dismissed by protestant denominations. That is a hangover from the Reformation.

Interesting, thank you…

 

[EricFilmer]

Thanks you for your kind words, ChristMySavior. And to add to all the Scripture verses being posted in this thread, let us all keep in mind what happened between Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch from the Book of Acts (8:26-40). There we see a set of stages: Interest in Scripture led to an explanation (by a deacon) of the saving grace of Christ which, in turn, led to baptism.

Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, "Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route."

So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,

and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

This was the scripture passage he was reading: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth."

Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, "I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?"

Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.

As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"

Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.

When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicing.

Philip came to Azotus, and went about proclaiming the good news to all the towns until he reached Caesarea.    (Acts 8:26-40, NAB)

 

[Tomster]

Hi all, I’m wondering if you could help me with this.

I was at dinner last night with my girlfriend’s family who are Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin types). I of course, was the only Catholic present and the topic came up of her mom saying that she would never accept a son-in-law that wasn’t a “born-again Christian.” So I said, I’m not a born-again Christian, I am a Roman Catholic Christian [knowing that this would stir up some confusion because I don’t really want to be labeled a “born-again Christian” in the sense that we label certain Protestants that way]. So anyway, then the whole thing came up that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and blah blah blah, all their fun Pentecostal beliefs. So I proceeded to say that I was saved at my Baptism, and while I was saved, I can lose my salvation because of my will and if I were to sin and not repent. So that set them off and they started attacking me saying that it doesn’t say in the bible that Baptism saves, but it does say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior does. I said to refer to 1 Peter 3:21 where it says that “Baptism now saves you.” They outwardly denied the scripture. They kept saying no no no, that doesn’t exist, it’s not true, it doesn’t say that, blah blah. Her sister also said that you can’t take one verse of scripture out of context and that there are other scripture passages stating otherwise. I asked her if she was saying that scripture is contradicting because it clearly states that baptism saves. You can’t deny that. So I took out my trusty iPhone and pulled up 1 Peter 3:18-22 and let her my girlfriend’s sister read it and she said, “oh.”

So, I know that there are tons of scripture verses that I could have used. Unfortunately, I’m no apologist (though I hope to be some day) and I want to prove that water baptism saves and I also want to disprove that their whole you MUST accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (while of course Catholics do) by saying the “sinners prayer” or whatever is false or unbiblical if possible.

I was so annoyed but kept my cool. My gf’s brother-in-law also proceeded to say that there is no “correct” religion. What he meant was that there is no absolute 100% truth in any Protestant denomination or Catholicism. I know this is obviously a ridiculous thought but I didn’t want to get into that. I’ll save that for another day.

I find it funny that protestants are SOO much more well versed in scripture yet most don’t know of this scripture passage from 1 Peter. Interesting. Someone please help!!

Additionally, you might want to ask your Pentecostal friends to review Matthew 7:19-23.

It is not enough to “call upon the name of the Lord” to assure salvation, even when it is accompanied by “casting out demons” and working “miracles” in His name. To “call upon Him” while failing to do His Father’s will ends in damnation. Furthermore, some “miracle workers” are “workers of iniquity” who “bring not forth good fruit.”

St. Paul, linking conduct with salvation, lists for us those things which constitute deadly sins and threaten our salvation. He sees sects, among other things, as an evil (Galatians 5:19-21). These serious violations of the law of God are called mortal sins because sins of this gravity take away the life of the soul and thus bring death to it (James 1:15 & Romans 1:29-32)

In light of the revealed truth in the passages from the bible above, can one who assures us that the bible says, "Just call upon Him. For ‘whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved’ " be taken seriously?

Just a closing pointer. Remember that your Pentecostal friends have no idea of the difference between the words “redemption” and “salvation”. There is a difference between the two, a very big difference.

 

[Barbkw]

Also, Catholics are the only faith that hold seven Sacraments. We treat each Sacrament as progressive steps - toward a greater understanding of Christ - Baptism, First Eucharist, Reconciliation, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Healing of the Sick.

Most protestant denominations don’t have these progressive steps to rely upon, they teach Bible alone (Sola Scriptura). So, it is logical, that under that “system” that they would be required as some point to personally acknowledge their belief in Jesus - to be “born again”.

When Luther broke from the Church - the Church excommunicated him. Luther established a denomination that was not based on priestly orders (as Catholics understand the apostolic laying on of hands through the Sacrament of Holy Orders).

Protestant denominations, reject all but one or two (Baptism & Marriage) of the seven Sacraments and even then, they have various ways of defining what occurs during Baptism and / or Marriage.

If properly understood, Confirmation for Catholic youth, is similar to the “born again” experience of the Holy Spirit.

However, we also are the only Church, who are “born again” through our two repeatable Sacraments (each time we receive Christ in the Eucharist and when we receive the words of absolution and the gift of grace in Reconciliation).

 

[CaptainPicard]

I wrote the essay in my signature for just this sort of occasion. However, it’s kind of long and it’s the rare person who will spend a couple of hours reading about a position they disagree with. But it might be of interest to you – at least for a skim.

It looks like the New Testament verses for baptismal regeneration have already been listed. I’ll try to shorten down mu Old Testament section here so you can browse it more easily. Here are baptismal types that foreshadow our baptismal regeneration (it may, however, be more trouble than it’s worth to explain this to those people).

These are examples of a New Creation coming about through water and the Spirit (the original list comes from Steve Ray’s Blog, I’ve added to it) :

• The first creation came from the earth which was covered with water and the Spirit hovered above (Gen 1:1-2).
• When God created man, water welled up from the ground and God breathed the breath of life (the Spirit) into his nostrils (Gen 2:6-7).
• A new humanity was started with Noah through water and Spirit. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch (Gen 6). He was saved from an evil world as we are saved from sin at baptism.
• The nation of Israel was created through the water of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy Spirit overhead (Ex 14). They were saved from the slavery of the Israelites, just as we are saved from the slavery of sin in our baptism. (see 1 Cor 10)
• Ezekiel described what the New Covenant would look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean water and his Spirit would be placed in us. He said that we would be made clean, which is what baptism does for us. (Ez 36:25).
• Naaman was cleansed of his leprosy through the waters of the Jordan, just as we are cleansed of our spiritual leprosy through our regeneration in the waters of baptism.
• The baby Moses was saved from death in the waters of the Nile, just as we are saved from spiritual death in baptism. Likewise, he went into water a slave, and came out a member of the royal family, just as we go into the water a slave to sin and come out a member of Christ the King.
• Jonah went down into the water (the wind represents the Spirit) and experienced a sort of death (he “cries out from Sheol”) and rises out of the water, empowered to do God’s preaching.
• God formed man out of clay in Genesis. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, in the story of the man born blind, symbolically reformed/recreated man out of clay and spittle (Jn 9), but the man was not healed of his blindness until he bathed in the water, symbolizing the fact that Christ reforms us in the waters of baptism.

 

[vwtaylorii]

Hi all, I’m wondering if you could help me with this.

I was at dinner last night with my girlfriend’s family who are Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin types). I of course, was the only Catholic present and the topic came up of her mom saying that she would never accept a son-in-law that wasn’t a “born-again Christian.” So I said, I’m not a born-again Christian, I am a Roman Catholic Christian [knowing that this would stir up some confusion because I don’t really want to be labeled a “born-again Christian” in the sense that we label certain Protestants that way]. So anyway, then the whole thing came up that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and blah blah blah, all their fun Pentecostal beliefs. So I proceeded to say that I was saved at my Baptism, and while I was saved, I can lose my salvation because of my will and if I were to sin and not repent. So that set them off and they started attacking me saying that it doesn’t say in the bible that Baptism saves, but it does say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior does. I said to refer to 1 Peter 3:21 where it says that “Baptism now saves you.” They outwardly denied the scripture. They kept saying no no no, that doesn’t exist, it’s not true, it doesn’t say that, blah blah. Her sister also said that you can’t take one verse of scripture out of context and that there are other scripture passages stating otherwise. I asked her if she was saying that scripture is contradicting because it clearly states that baptism saves. You can’t deny that. So I took out my trusty iPhone and pulled up 1 Peter 3:18-22 and let her my girlfriend’s sister read it and she said, “oh.”

So, I know that there are tons of scripture verses that I could have used. Unfortunately, I’m no apologist (though I hope to be some day) and I want to prove that water baptism saves and I also want to disprove that their whole you MUST accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (while of course Catholics do) by saying the “sinners prayer” or whatever is false or unbiblical if possible.

These verses have been pointed out, but they can be elaborated more.

Jn 3: 3-7 says we must be born again by water and Spirit. A lot of people will say that the water is either the preach word of God or the amniotic fluid. The amniotic fluid is a faulty interpretation because it would be saying that Jesus told Nicodemus to go back into the mother womb and become born again. As for the water meaning preach word of God, if it really means that, why did Jesus began baptizing people after talking to Nicodemus?

Good job pointing out 1 Pt 3: 19-21. However, people will still try to refute this passage by saying that baptism is only a symbol. If that is true, why did St. Peter say Noah’s flood symbolize baptism? It wouldn’t make sense for St. Peter to say an event that is catastrophic symbolize something that doesn’t do anything.

In addition, why did St. Paul shows that baptism circumsize the heart and called it the Circumcision of Christ in Col 2: 11-12?

If you want me to elaborate more on these verses or on baptism, hit me up.

I was so annoyed but kept my cool. My gf’s brother-in-law also proceeded to say that there is no “correct” religion. What he meant was that there is no absolute 100% truth in any Protestant denomination or Catholicism. I know this is obviously a ridiculous thought but I didn’t want to get into that. I’ll save that for another day.

I find it funny that protestants are SOO much more well versed in scripture yet most don’t know of this scripture passage from 1 Peter. Interesting. Someone please help!!

The part in bold is impossible. The Bible says the Church is the Body of Christ. The Church is also the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3: 15). If a pillar and foundation stabalize and prevent a building from falling, that means the Church prevent and defend the truth from error. If there is no correct religion, there is no pillar and foundation to protect the truth. In addition, Jesus told His Apostles that He will send the Holy Spirit to teach all things (Jn 16: 13; 14: 26). If there is no correct religion, your gf brother-in-law is saying the Holy Spirit did not come and teach us all things.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi all, I’m wondering if you could help me with this.

I was at dinner last night with my girlfriend’s family who are Pentecostals (Kenneth Hagin types). I of course, was the only Catholic present and the topic came up of her mom saying that she would never accept a son-in-law that wasn’t a “born-again Christian.”

And your GF sat there and allowed that statement to stand? :ehh:

So I said, I’m not a born-again Christian, I am a Roman Catholic Christian [knowing that this would stir up some confusion because I don’t really want to be labeled a “born-again Christian” in the sense that we label certain Protestants that way].

• Are Catholics Born Again
• Assurance of Salvation?
• Grace: What It Is and What It Does

So anyway, then the whole thing came up that in order to be saved you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and blah blah blah, all their fun Pentecostal beliefs.

Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

So I proceeded to say that I was saved at my Baptism, and while I was saved, I can lose my salvation because of my will and if I were to sin and not repent. So that set them off and they started attacking me saying that it doesn’t say in the bible that Baptism saves, but it does say that accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior does.

• The Necessity of Baptism (Fathers*)
• How Is A Catholic Saved?
• The Case For Infant Baptism
• Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

I said to refer to 1 Peter 3:21 where it says that “Baptism now saves you.” They outwardly denied the scripture. They kept saying no no no, that doesn’t exist, it’s not true, it doesn’t say that, blah blah. Her sister also said that you can’t take one verse of scripture out of context and that there are other scripture passages stating otherwise. I asked her if she was saying that scripture is contradicting because it clearly states that baptism saves. You can’t deny that. So I took out my trusty iPhone and pulled up 1 Peter 3:18-22 and let her my girlfriend’s sister read it and she said, “oh.”

[sign]I LOVE it![/sign]

So, I know that there are tons of scripture verses that I could have used. Unfortunately, I’m no apologist (though I hope to be some day) and I want to prove that water baptism saves and I also want to disprove that their whole you MUST accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (while of course Catholics do) by saying the “sinners prayer” or whatever is false or unbiblical if possible.

You did pretty well IMO.

I was so annoyed but kept my cool. My gf’s brother-in-law also proceeded to say that there is no “correct” religion. What he meant was that there is no absolute 100% truth in any Protestant denomination or Catholicism. I know this is obviously a ridiculous thought but I didn’t want to get into that. I’ll save that for another day.

They all say that because they can’t agree with each other. Hence the gazillion or so denominations since the “Reformation”.

I find it funny that protestants are SOO much more well versed in scripture yet most don’t know of this scripture passage from 1 Peter. Interesting. Someone please help!!

My friend, you’ll soon come to discover that you probably know the Bible as well or better than they do. Most of us (except me…LOL) are not good about chapter and verse, but we’re getting there as we work at situations like yours.

Did you know that there’s a plenary indulgence attached to reading the Bible for a half hour? Do that consistently and you’ll soon get it going quite well.

Other great sources:
Bible Christian Society (Especially get into John’s 2 Minute Apologetics!)
San Juan Catholic Seminars (Inexpensive and comprehensive)
Catholic Home Study Service FREE Catholic courses and ALL good!

 

[kepha1]

I suggest you avoid any confrontation with your girlfriends parents about religion. If they have a question, a misperception, or a misunderstanding about your faith, write it down, and take it home for a little homework. Try to keep it short. Give the answer to your girlfriend to take to her parents. If they want more, they will ask. If you give them more than what they asked for, they will start ranting about Mary, saints, purgatory, and a list of other doctrines they are not ready for. You have to stay in control by being quiet, respectful, and above all, diligently practicing your faith. We can’t defend something effectively if we are not living it. They must WANT to receive from you, or you are wasting your time.

Can you invite your girlfriend to Mass?

 

[ChristMySavior]

I wrote the essay in my signature for just this sort of occasion. However, it’s kind of long and it’s the rare person who will spend a couple of hours reading about a position they disagree with. But it might be of interest to you – at least for a skim.

It looks like the New Testament verses for baptismal regeneration have already been listed. I’ll try to shorten down mu Old Testament section here so you can browse it more easily. Here are baptismal types that foreshadow our baptismal regeneration (it may, however, be more trouble than it’s worth to explain this to those people).

These are examples of a New Creation coming about through water and the Spirit (the original list comes from Steve Ray’s Blog, I’ve added to it) :

• The first creation came from the earth which was covered with water and the Spirit hovered above (Gen 1:1-2).
• When God created man, water welled up from the ground and God breathed the breath of life (the Spirit) into his nostrils (Gen 2:6-7).
• A new humanity was started with Noah through water and Spirit. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch (Gen 6). He was saved from an evil world as we are saved from sin at baptism.
• The nation of Israel was created through the water of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy Spirit overhead (Ex 14). They were saved from the slavery of the Israelites, just as we are saved from the slavery of sin in our baptism. (see 1 Cor 10)
• Ezekiel described what the New Covenant would look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean water and his Spirit would be placed in us. He said that we would be made clean, which is what baptism does for us. (Ez 36:25).
• Naaman was cleansed of his leprosy through the waters of the Jordan, just as we are cleansed of our spiritual leprosy through our regeneration in the waters of baptism.
• The baby Moses was saved from death in the waters of the Nile, just as we are saved from spiritual death in baptism. Likewise, he went into water a slave, and came out a member of the royal family, just as we go into the water a slave to sin and come out a member of Christ the King.
• Jonah went down into the water (the wind represents the Spirit) and experienced a sort of death (he “cries out from Sheol”) and rises out of the water, empowered to do God’s preaching.
• God formed man out of clay in Genesis. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, in the story of the man born blind, symbolically reformed/recreated man out of clay and spittle (Jn 9), but the man was not healed of his blindness until he bathed in the water, symbolizing the fact that Christ reforms us in the waters of baptism.

Thank you so much for the OT help, I will definitely use this…boy do I have some hw to do!

 

[ChristMySavior]

These verses have been pointed out, but they can be elaborated more.

Jn 3: 3-7 says we must be born again by water and Spirit. A lot of people will say that the water is either the preach word of God or the amniotic fluid. The amniotic fluid is a faulty interpretation because it would be saying that Jesus told Nicodemus to go back into the mother womb and become born again. As for the water meaning preach word of God, if it really means that, why did Jesus began baptizing people after talking to Nicodemus?

Good job pointing out 1 Pt 3: 19-21. However, people will still try to refute this passage by saying that baptism is only a symbol. If that is true, why did St. Peter say Noah’s flood symbolize baptism? It wouldn’t make sense for St. Peter to say an event that is catastrophic symbolize something that doesn’t do anything.

In addition, why did St. Paul shows that baptism circumsize the heart and called it the Circumcision of Christ in Col 2: 11-12?

If you want me to elaborate more on these verses or on baptism, hit me up.

The part in bold is impossible. The Bible says the Church is the Body of Christ. The Church is also the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3: 15). If a pillar and foundation stabalize and prevent a building from falling, that means the Church prevent and defend the truth from error. If there is no correct religion, there is no pillar and foundation to protect the truth. In addition, Jesus told His Apostles that He will send the Holy Spirit to teach all things (Jn 16: 13; 14: 26). If there is no correct religion, your gf brother-in-law is saying the Holy Spirit did not come and teach us all things.

Thank you very much for your insight, I’m going to be thoroughly reading over all the advice and scripture that I’ve gotten from all of you and try to implant it into my brain, lol. I am so grateful to have all of you here so willing to help me. God Bless