Born Again Christian Catholic

[rolandjames]

We as Christians should seek common ground with each other and focus more on what we agree on. We all are trinitarians because we believe their is one God with three divine persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is the ecumenical community that I am living in and participate in. My church gave me a copy of a sermon preached by the late Holy Father John Paul II. In his address in St. Peter’s Square on May 30, 2000, before a half million Christians of many faiths he made an astounding statement. Speaking of the Holy Spirit on the eve of Pentecost at the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council he said,“It is not only through the sacraments and the ministrations of the Church that the Holy Spirit makes holy the people, leads them and enriches them with his virtues.” I feel I am a born again Christian outside the sacraments of the Church but I still love my mother Church. Is this so wrong?

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[KingAlfred]

“I feel I am a born again Christian outside the sacraments of the Church but I still love my mother Church. Is this so wrong?”

As a Catholic, you cannot live ‘outside the sacraments’. Sorry, but that idea is definitely wrong, from a Catholic standpoint.

Regarding ecumenism – I once believed in it, until I re-familiarized myself not long ago with the hateful biggotry toward Catholicism that’s all too common in many American evangelical communities. Anti-Catholicism is the last publicly acceptable prejudice in America.

 

[rolandjames]

KingAlfred, I appreciate your answers and your zeal for the Catholic Church. You deal in absolutes and that is what is missing in our world today. Someone has to have the courage to stand up for what they believe in and you do. However, do you really believe Jesus cares about semantics. Those who have the love of Christ in their heart belong to him. If they really and truly believe that Christ death on the cross washed away their sins they have salvation. I confess I am still a sinner but many of the sins I am most ashamed of in my past life disappeared when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

 

[Pani_Rose]

As Catholics we are given all that is necessary for our salvation at Baptism, Chirsmation/Confirmation, and Eucharist. But, at some point in our lives, just as you have done, we have to all make a personal comittment to Jesus Christ. Our Godparents and family can no longer carry us along. It has to become a decision in our own hearts, in our own right - that is what you have done - it takes place in all of us to some extent.

Also, in this process of accepting Christ ourselves, we must allow the Holy Spirit, to stir into flame all that the Triune God has previously given us through the Sacraments. It must become the fire of the Holy Spirit, burnig brightly in our lives, that carries out the evangelization for the Body of Christ.

It is nothing that we ourselves do! It is Jesus Christ living within us by his grace that we say YES Jesus, I want more. More of you Jesus, all you have to give, that is what happened when you went through the Alpha course.

In a way, it is similar to what happens when people go through a Life in the Spirit Seminar.

 

[KingAlfred]

KingAlfred, I appreciate your answers and your zeal for the Catholic Church. You deal in absolutes and that is what is missing in our world today. Someone has to have the courage to stand up for what they believe in and you do. However, do you really believe Jesus cares about semantics. Those who have the love of Christ in their heart belong to him. If they really and truly believe that Christ death on the cross washed away their sins they have salvation. I confess I am still a sinner but many of the sins I am most ashamed of in my past life disappeared when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I wish you well, my friend. My fear is that at some point you’ll get ambushed by anti-Catholics you might have considered your ‘born-again’ brothers and sisters. The sting will hurt, and then you’ll know. Truthfully, I hope it doesn’t happen, but deep down, I’m fairly certain it will.

 

[KingAlfred]

“It is nothing that we ourselves do!”

Not so, technically speaking. According to Catholic theology, we must act properly on our free will, and accept Christ’s invitation. We always have free will. It’s *our *choice. That’s why there can’t be any guarantee of salvation in this life, no stamped passport to Heaven acquired before death. As long as we are subject to free will, we can remain in Christ, or abandon Him. If we choose the latter, we will face consequences on Judgment Day.

 

[Pani_Rose]

“It is nothing that we ourselves do!”

Not so, technically speaking. According to Catholic theology, we must act properly on our free will, and accept Christ’s invitation. We always have free will. It’s *our *choice. That’s why there can’t be any guarantee of salvation in this life, no stamped passport to Heaven acquired before death. As long as we are subject to free will, we can remain in Christ, or abandon Him. If we choose the latter, we will face consequences on Judgment Day.

Amen! The old Southern Baptist in me creeps out sometime. Honestly that was a mis-statment, at the time I writing it, I saw it and forgot to go back to change the wording.

God bless you!

 

[KingAlfred]

Amen! The old Southern Baptist in me creeps out sometime. Honestly that was a mis-statment, at the time I writing it, I saw it and forgot to go back to change the wording.

God bless you!

Just curious. Why did you convert?

 

[Pani_Rose]

Hi Alfred,

Why did I convert?

Because God is faithful and true, he will not let our feet to stumble, and when we cry out to him for truth -he leads the way witthout fail. Thanks be to God! After being away for so long, the hunger for God became a search for where HE wanted us to be, not where we wanted to be. In allowing him to lead us, he did so - at least to me - through very interesting circumstances.

I was very young - in high school - when he allowed me to see the hurt, control, and anger that can be caused when small groups don’t like people who are trying their best to serve the body of Christ - it can truly reak havic, not only for individuals, but for a church. I guess that is why there are so many Southern Baptist Churches built right across the street from each other.

I love the SBC though, in that I was taught faith in Christ through it with my families guidence. However, that love of Christ that I was taught left me hungering for more. There is only so much that the Southern Baptist can give. I had never heard of the Sacramental Church - except the condemnation of the Roman Catholic Church - even then, I never heard about the Sacraments, only what the RC was not.

I have posted a bit of our story on CHNI forum, if you want to read it. It shows God’s mercy and love by his clear leading in guiding us to the true Church - - only he brought us in through the Eastern Lung.
chnetwork.org/forums/forum11/2326.html

 

[rolandjames]

Hello PaniRose and KingAlfred. This is what I believe. God loved us so much that he gave us Christ who atoned for our sins. When we confess our sins and admit we are utterly helpless without Jesus, God acquits us. We must comprehend what God did and have faith before anything else happens. By accepting God’s grace in the saving power of Jesus we are justified. Justification is only the beginning of one’s relationship to God. It does not take in the whole process of the Christian life. It deals with the finding of a gracious God in Christ, with the forgiveness of sin. What follows justification is sanctification, and that deals with the development of the life started in the soul when it met God in Christ and became justified. Sanctification is a life-long process. It follows justification and expresses itself in good works, in deeds of love and thanksgiving to God for the salvation which He so freely bestowed upon us when we came to faith in Christ. This theology is being taught at my Catholic Church. Our evangelization program is setting people on fire for Jesus. Our Catholic Church as a whole has failed to do this. It has failed in the new evangelization that Pope John Paul II wanted for our church. I don’t believe in “Once Saved Always Saved” but I did experience a renewal in my faith through evangelization. If protestants think they are the only ones who have a personal relationship with Jesus, they are mistaken. If they can say they are born again Christians because they had an encounter with Jesus, so can I. It is only semantics. The mother church of all churches still gives me the best vehicle for sanctification. I started this dialog so that others may hear me and start evangelization programs in their Catholic churches. Adult education programs are missing in most of our churches. Catholics get their education when they’re children and by the time they become adults, they have already forgotten most of the teaching. Then they just go through the motions not really knowing what’s going on. I should know. I was one of them. Thank you for the forum. I needed to say this. God Bless Us All.

 

[Pani_Rose]

Roland, if I may be so bold, as a Catholic you had your born again relationshiip with Christ when you entered the Baptismal waters of Salvation and were sealed with the Life Giving Holy Spirit.

What has happened in the course you took is just this, and I don’t mean ‘just’ for it is the same as happened to the Apostles when the Holy Spirit came upon them…

Roman Catholic Christians believe that they are first born again of water and the Holy Spirit when they receive the sacrament of Baptism. Catholic Christians also believe that Baptism only begins the work of mission of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.

The person who is truly “born again” and “Spirit-filled” is not necessarily the one who has had an extraordinary experience of the Holy Spirit at some point (though this is a blessing), but the person who lives and “walks” with the Holy Spirit; who has put to death the “works of the flesh” and manifests the “fruits of the Spirit.” This is what it means to be a “new creation” in Christ Jesus - “the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Cor 5:17)
Much today is heard of being “baptized in the Spirit.” The expression comes from Sacred Scripture.

Mt 3:11 He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

Mk 1:8 I (John) have baptized you with water; he (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit.

Lk 3:16 He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

Jn 1:33 On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.

The Roman Catholic Church has never claimed that the work of the Holy Spirit is limited exclusively to Baptism.

Being “baptized in the Holy Spirit” is actually a “release” or a “coming to consciousness” of the power of the Holy Spirit who already has been given to the believer through the sacraments of the Church.
catholicapologetics.org/ap060400.htm

I have been in and a part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for some thirty years almost. I have seem thousands of times the change that you are going through, and I have to say it is TOTALLY AWEOME! To realize that we walk in this fullness of life that the Triune God has so marveously blessed us with, and all we have to do is say YES to Christ, and allow the Holy Spirit to stir into action all that we have been given. It is truly an amazing adventure. Glory to God!

 

[rolandjames]

Amen. I’m still learning. Life is a journey.

 

[Pani_Rose]

Amen. I’m still learning. Life is a journey.

And you are on the most awesome journey - that is one which is totally sold out to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - one that every straight line drawn with so many right and left turns that are truly a wonder - but it is all a straight line leading even closer to our destiny which is the fullness of life in Christ for all time.

Go with God! Enjoy, enjoy this journey and rejoice in Him!

 

[rolandjames]

I still think that what I experienced was extraordinary, magical, real and something I had never before experienced in my life. The non-Catholic brothers call it born again and I agree with them on that. I am still studying and reading my Bible. I can’t understand why I can’t be a born again Christian and a Catholic at the same time. If this isn’t possible, I may have to look for another church that accepts the truth of my encounter with Jesus.

 

[Pani_Rose]

I understand why they call it born again. When one has never received what you have, it truly is being born again, for Christ says we must “be born of the water and the spirit.” You had already received that, but you, as an adult made a decision for Jesus Christ! To you, that is born again, and that is ok in a way. But, realize that you have been stirred into flame. Maybe the article I posted on here will help forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=109170

 

[rolandjames]

Hello Jim, I was reviewing all the comments and replies. You seem to understand where I’m coming from more than anyone else. Thank you for understanding. I find myself speaking to old friends and telling them, “That was in my former life. I don’t do that anymore.” As if I died and came back to life again. That would mean I would have to be born again. Wouldn’t it?
God Bless

 

[KingAlfred]

I still think that what I experienced was extraordinary, magical, real and something I had never before experienced in my life. The non-Catholic brothers call it born again and I agree with them on that. I am still studying and reading my Bible. I can’t understand why I can’t be a born again Christian and a Catholic at the same time. If this isn’t possible, I may have to look for another church that accepts the truth of my encounter with Jesus.

Roland, you can’t be both born-again and Catholic, because being born-again requires you to believe these three fundamental beliefs that strongly contradict Catholic teaching:

1. Priesthood of all believers (eg, no need for a priesthood)
2. Salvation through faith alone (eg, no need for good works)
3. Sole authority of the Bible (eg, no need for Catholic tradition or the Magisterium, AKA: the Pope)

This is why, in a nutshell. It’s also what started the Protestant Reformation and ended over a thousand years of Christian unity in Western Europe.

 

[KingAlfred]

“That would mean I would have to be born again. Wouldn’t it?”

No, because you were baptized as a child. According to the Catholic Church, that is when the Holy Spirit came upon you. If the Holy Spirit departed you because of your sinfulness (just speculating here, not accusing), but later returned, you weren’t ‘born-again’, but simply re-embraced. Once baptized, always baptized, if you’re Catholic.

 

[quiet52]

from: JimR-OCDS

(post #17)

Gamera,
of course technically and according to the Church teachings, you are correct. However, I heard my local Bishop talk about it at Confirmation just recently, and he used the term, “born again,” in giving an understanding to what people experience when they accept the faith they have received.

Also, it was Jesus words where the term actually derives from;

Quote:
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. John 3:6.

Remember, Baptism is a sacrament of faith, and being Baptized as infants, it is our parents faith, not ours, that we are Baptized.

Although we have been reborn into the faith, it is not alive and is dead, until we accept it. This is the “born again,” experience that people have.

The Charismatics use the term, “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,” when we receive the gift of faith.

Regardless of how the Church teaches it, is all meaningless until faith comes into the person’s life.

Jim

Huh? The teaching of the Church is wrong? Baptism is “meaningless” until faith comes into the person’s life?

Jim, the early Christians would not have had entire households baptized (including non-believing children) if the sacrament of Baptism was “meaningless.” The child receives sanctifying grace, original sin is forgiven, and the child becomes a member of the Church. Baptism opens the path of salvation.

Even adults who are baptized can lose faith, regain it, lose it, regain it. The benefits of the sacrament are not lost, no matter what degree of faith the person may have at any given time. The efficacy of the sacrament does not depend on a singular powerful emotional experience.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2632317#post2632317

catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp

 

[quiet52]

from rolandjames:

I still think that what I experienced was extraordinary, magical, real and something I had never before experienced in my life. The non-Catholic brothers call it born again and I agree with them on that. I am still studying and reading my Bible. I can’t understand why I can’t be a born again Christian and a Catholic at the same time. If this isn’t possible, I may have to look for another church that accepts the truth of my encounter with Jesus.

rolandjames,

God lets His presence be known in many different ways, and sometimes in ways which help us to significantly transform our hearts and minds.

But … our faith is not based on our emotions or isolated spiritual experiences. Emotions can be good. I’m glad you had such a powerful experience of our Lord’s presence.

Your powerful encounter with Jesus was a gift to you – and we’re to continue seeking to encounter Him. That being said, you seem to be idolizing your experience, with disregard to the faith taught by our Lord and His Church. You seem to be wanting to define your faith based on this singular spiritual experience.

No one is denying the “truth” of your encounter with Jesus. We rejoice with you.

But your insistence to use a non-Catholic definition, and your rejection of Catholic teaching about what Baptism is, is simply putting yourself first. Your “born again” experience happened when you were baptized. During our lifetimes, however, we’re to work on continually renewing our hearts in Jesus.

Please don’t become your own Magisterium, based on your personal experience. Instead, study what the Magisterium teaches. Let your experience propel you to learn more about the faith, and to gird yourself against what may steer you away from Jesus (untruths, sins, sins of omission, lack of charity…).

Again, be grateful that God gave you this wonderful experience of encountering Him. But be careful about defining your faith by it. Or you will think you’ve “lost” your faith when you’re in a spiritually-dry phase.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0022.html