Born again Christianity

[AlanFromWichita]

Have you ever known a professed Christian who can tell you the exact date and time they were “saved?” The moment they accepted Jesus Christ as their own personal Lord and Savior? The moment they turned from a life of sin to living for God? The moment they were “born again?”

But the person is harsh, judgmental, self-righteous and impatient? And pretty much you don’t like them?

There are two obvious conclusions to draw from this:

1. Either being born again doesn’t help with character flaws, or
2. These people don’t know what they’re talking about.

I choose the latter as the most likely explanation. Now they can probably run rings around me finding Bible verses that explain how they supposedly feel and believe, but I can tell they really don’t feel and believe the things they say at least based on experience, or they wouldn’t be acting like jerks.

They know what they want. They know it’s a Good Thing to be born of the spirit, but through some intellectual exercise come to think they are, in fact. That’s when they tend to get annoying.

But that puts them one step ahead of where some of us Catholics are. At least they know being “born again” is a Good Thing. But sometimes when I write about being born again I get the impression such verbage is dismissed as being too Protestant or something. Catholics don’t get born again, after all. They get baptized, and confirmed. Right?

Unfortunately, I’m afraid that is right for way too many of us. We get the sacraments, we go through the motions, we follow the rules our whole lives and we don’t even know we are supposed to be born again, much less work to bring it about.

To me, being born of the spirit is the basic entryway into following Jesus. This, to me, is our entry-way into the kingdom, which can bring me peace and joy (fruit of the spirit) now, while I’m still on this earth. We all want to be able to go with Jesus to the cross, but how about after the cross?

Personally I’ve had a great deal of very rewarding experiences and have come to certain tentative ideas about being born again. For one, I don’t think it’s a one-shot deal. I think if you are on the spiritual journey, your false self dies either gradually or suddenly, but as it does, and a little piece of the ego/false self dies, that is one more sprout on the born-again side. In essence, I think being born again can be a continuous process. Once I dispose myself such that the Lord sees fit to help my false self collapse, then I may be “born again” many times – even in one day – as the Holy Spirit continues to purge me of impurities (like purgation as in the Dark Night of the Soul) sometimes a little at a time, sometimes more. These experiences have invariably resulted in my increased peace, joy, and other good things – doesn’t always stick but always improves the operating level.

So I want to open this thread to discussions on all aspects of being “born again.” Do you have experiences that seem like you were “born again,” and if so, do you think it was the Real Thing? How did you feel at the time and how did it change you? Do others share my opinion that being born again WILL change you? Why are Catholics so reluctant to use this terminology, when Jesus was very clear about its importance? Do you ever talk to other Catholic or non-Catholics about being born again – and what are your thoughts there?

IMO being “born again” is really “where it’s at,” even though we tend to get annoyed with people who talk about being born again. Why are they so annoying? Is it just that we get tired of wishful thinking and apparently delusional thinking, or do they have something good going that we don’t?

Alan

 

[gsbrch15]

Good Post! I will tell you that I came from a non-religous family growing up. I was ignorant of the anything religous. In fact, I remember when they used to hold those John 3:16 signs behind field goal posts? I used to think that was a code to someone named John…not joking…stop laughing at me

Long story short, when I was barely 22 (37 now) I had a radical conversion to Christ–born of the Spirit. I could not explain to you what happened. All I know is that something was different. I could not do the things I once did. Did and do I sin? yes. But there were obvious behavioral sins I could not do anymore. And my ignorance and apathy for religion became now a hunger…a desire. I just want to know Christ . Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. (Phil. 3:8-11 For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.)
How does that happen? How do desires change just like that. I’m reminded of a illustration Jonathan Edwards used. He said if he told you how sweet the honey was that he had but you had no taste buds (the man or woman who is spiritually dead and blind) and placed it on your tongue you don’t or will not know. No matter how he explains or describes the honey ( the Gospel) you can’t taste or enjot it. You must have taste buds. Through faith in Christ I was given those taste buds by the Spirit and now desire Christ.
I would add it has been a journey as you said as I am finally making it “home” to the CC and now receiving the fullness of truth after wandering through the wilderness of protestant churches.

 

[petrel]

The concept of being born again is a scriptural one and therefore should be of great importance to Catholics.
John 3 Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3 Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This is a clear reference to baptism. Many protestants ignore the rebirth of water which is baptism. They regard it as optional and they emphasise being born of the spirit by which they mean various external manifestations of the spirit such as displays of emotion or speaking in tongues.

On the other hand Catholics emphasise being born of water and can tend to minimise and discount being born again of the Spirit. Being born of the spirit is indication that we are not reborn after the flesh but after the spirit. Therefore we pursue spiritual heavenly things and put to death the deeds of the flesh. This of course is an ongoing process. It’s interesting that John the baptist baptised with water only. His baptism lacked the baptism of the Holy Ghost and therefore it was necessary for the church to rebaptise his disciples with the baptism of Jesus Christ. This proves that baptism (being born again) is inadequate if it lacks the Holy Ghost. The churches baptism which is the baptism of Jesus Christ imparts both water AND the Holy Ghost

I would like to caution against the idea that we are continually being reborn and reborn time after time with different “experiences” which we attribute to the spirit. I would prefer to think of being “born again” as being a state of grace in which we remain until we commit mortal sin, after which we must be purified to restore the baptismal purity. So we see that baptism of the Holy Ghost restores the baptismal purity after we have received the Sacrament of Confession. But how is baptismal purity, the baptism of the Holy Ghost manifested? Pentecostals seek tongues, miracles, ecstasies and various emotions as evidence of this rebirth. Not so. In this they greatly err. The evidence of being born again is in two things. Our pure and holy life, and our love for one another.

This is explained in 1 Peter 1
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Unfeigned love for the brethren. Wow, now how many of us can claim this great manifestation? How mighty and wonderful is such a thing as compared to the triviality of speaking in tongues. As 1 Cor 13 says
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

 

[gsbrch15]

Have you ever known a professed Christian who can tell you the exact date and time they were “saved?” The moment they accepted Jesus Christ as their own personal Lord and Savior? The moment they turned from a life of sin to living for God? The moment they were “born again?”

But the person is harsh, judgmental, self-righteous and impatient? And pretty much you don’t like them?

There are two obvious conclusions to draw from this:

1. Either being born again doesn’t help with character flaws, or
2. These people don’t know what they’re talking about.

I choose the latter as the most likely explanation. Now they can probably run rings around me finding Bible verses that explain how they supposedly feel and believe, but I can tell they really don’t feel and believe the things they say at least based on experience, or they wouldn’t be acting like jerks.

They know what they want. They know it’s a Good Thing to be born of the spirit, but through some intellectual exercise come to think they are, in fact. That’s when they tend to get annoying.

But that puts them one step ahead of where some of us Catholics are. At least they know being “born again” is a Good Thing. But sometimes when I write about being born again I get the impression such verbage is dismissed as being too Protestant or something. Catholics don’t get born again, after all. They get baptized, and confirmed. Right?

Unfortunately, I’m afraid that is right for way too many of us. We get the sacraments, we go through the motions, we follow the rules our whole lives and we don’t even know we are supposed to be born again, much less work to bring it about.

To me, being born of the spirit is the basic entryway into following Jesus. This, to me, is our entry-way into the kingdom, which can bring me peace and joy (fruit of the spirit) now, while I’m still on this earth. We all want to be able to go with Jesus to the cross, but how about after the cross?

Personally I’ve had a great deal of very rewarding experiences and have come to certain tentative ideas about being born again. For one, I don’t think it’s a one-shot deal. I think if you are on the spiritual journey, your false self dies either gradually or suddenly, but as it does, and a little piece of the ego/false self dies, that is one more sprout on the born-again side. In essence, I think being born again can be a continuous process. Once I dispose myself such that the Lord sees fit to help my false self collapse, then I may be “born again” many times – even in one day – as the Holy Spirit continues to purge me of impurities (like purgation as in the Dark Night of the Soul) sometimes a little at a time, sometimes more. These experiences have invariably resulted in my increased peace, joy, and other good things – doesn’t always stick but always improves the operating level.

So I want to open this thread to discussions on all aspects of being “born again.” Do you have experiences that seem like you were “born again,” and if so, do you think it was the Real Thing? How did you feel at the time and how did it change you? Do others share my opinion that being born again WILL change you? Why are Catholics so reluctant to use this terminology, when Jesus was very clear about its importance? Do you ever talk to other Catholic or non-Catholics about being born again – and what are your thoughts there?

IMO being “born again” is really “where it’s at,” even though we tend to get annoyed with people who talk about being born again. Why are they so annoying? Is it just that we get tired of wishful thinking and apparently delusional thinking, or do they have something good going that we don’t?

Alan

But the person is harsh, judgmental, self-righteous and impatient? And pretty much you don’t like them?

There are two obvious conclusions to draw from this:

1. Either being born again doesn’t help with character flaws, or
2. These people don’t know what they’re talking about.

By the way, you don’t think you are being “harsh, judgmental, self-righteous” by the conclusions you draw? Might want to add hypocritical to the list.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Good Post! I will tell you that I came from a non-religous family growing up. I was ignorant of the anything religous. In fact, I remember when they used to hold those John 3:16 signs behind field goal posts? I used to think that was a code to someone named John…not joking…stop laughing at me

I understand. I was made fun of for things that I didn’t know but others did. How am I supposed to know unless somebody tells me? I guess they think it’s fun somehow to catch the “academic kid” not knowing something.

How does that happen? How do desires change just like that. I’m reminded of a illustration Jonathan Edwards used. He said if he told you how sweet the honey was that he had but you had no taste buds (the man or woman who is spiritually dead and blind) and placed it on your tongue you don’t or will not know. No matter how he explains or describes the honey ( the Gospel) you can’t taste or enjot it. You must have taste buds. Through faith in Christ I was given those taste buds by the Spirit and now desire Christ.
I would add it has been a journey as you said as I am finally making it “home” to the CC and now receiving the fullness of truth after wandering through the wilderness of protestant churches.

That is an excellent illustration.

But the person is harsh, judgmental, self-righteous and impatient? And pretty much you don’t like them?

There are two obvious conclusions to draw from this:

1. Either being born again doesn’t help with character flaws, or
2. These people don’t know what they’re talking about.

By the way, you don’t think you are being “harsh, judgmental, self-righteous” by the conclusions you draw? Might want to add hypocritical to the list.

No, not at all. There is a difference between being judgmental and stating a fact.

Let me give you an example. My son and I once came upon a pro-life demonstration at Wichita State, put on by JFA, and talked to one of the counselors there. (JFA=Justice For All, the people who show photos of mangled babies) This guy could work a Bible like nobody’s business. Make any mention of any scripture passage and he’d have it open to the page in a few seconds. We talked about all kinds of things, including unconditional love for God and our fellow people, and even a bit about being born of the spirit. But then we let it slip that we were (gasp) Catholic! OMG. This person became rude and accusatory, and told us that we were being misled by a cult. He was bitter and angry, and only soo pious only a few minutes before. He could hardly stomach breathing the same air as us because we were Catholic. I was tempted to ask him which religious denomination both authored and then protected the Bible through the centuries so he could have a copy and beat us up with it, but I didn’t think of it.

Those are the facts of the situation. I’m saying if this guy was born again, which he claimed to be, it must not have done much for him – or maybe he was worse before? Either that or the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Love and mercy are easy when they’re not challenged. Put a Catholic in front of this guy, and he goes apoplectic, seething with bitterness and rage. That sort of conditional love and mercy is not likely to emanate from a spiritually mature person. Either that or maybe he used to be an ax murderer and has actually made a great deal of progress?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

On the other hand Catholics emphasise being born of water and can tend to minimise and discount being born again of the Spirit. Being born of the spirit is indication that we are not reborn after the flesh but after the spirit. Therefore we pursue spiritual heavenly things and put to death the deeds of the flesh. This of course is an ongoing process. It’s interesting that John the baptist baptised with water only. His baptism lacked the baptism of the Holy Ghost and therefore it was necessary for the church to rebaptise his disciples with the baptism of Jesus Christ. This proves that baptism (being born again) is inadequate if it lacks the Holy Ghost. The churches baptism which is the baptism of Jesus Christ imparts both water AND the Holy Ghost

You’re not saying that we are now born of the spirit during infant baptism, are you? If so, I don’t understand how that fits in because pursuing heavenly things and putting to death the things of the flesh – I don’t see how that correlates with people who are being baptized into the Church. If this were the case, then every Catholic would be spiritually mature and would have stayed focused on the things of the spirit from infancy and never had to change.

I would like to caution against the idea that we are continually being reborn and reborn time after time with different “experiences” which we attribute to the spirit. I would prefer to think of being “born again” as being a state of grace in which we remain until we commit mortal sin, after which we must be purified to restore the baptismal purity. So we see that baptism of the Holy Ghost restores the baptismal purity after we have received the Sacrament of Confession. But how is baptismal purity, the baptism of the Holy Ghost manifested? Pentecostals seek tongues, miracles, ecstasies and various emotions as evidence of this rebirth. Not so. In this they greatly err. The evidence of being born again is in two things. Our pure and holy life, and our love for one another.

I don’t see “born again” as a temporary improvement, but as a fundamental change. Maybe the word “experiences” is misleading because when I think a bit I can conjure images of people having big emotional reactions. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about experiencing peace, joy, and other spiritual fruits in situations where I didn’t used to. It is an ongoing process. We die to and grieve over many things, not just over lost loved ones, but over lost property, plans and ideals, dreams we’ve had to give up, failed attempts at various forms of success. To surrender our will to the Father, we must get past these things and learn to live in peace. When we are attached to the world that is impossible.

This is explained in 1 Peter 1
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Unfeigned love for the brethren. Wow, now how many of us can claim this great manifestation? How mighty and wonderful is such a thing as compared to the triviality of speaking in tongues. As 1 Cor 13 says
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I really like the “unfeigned love” part. It is wonderful to be able to openly show love to an adversary (or any brother for that matter), and not in a condescending or sarcastic way but with genuine love, and respect for that Divine which is in that person.

I like what one SD wrote: Jesus did not come to show us how to be spiritual beings. We already were that from the time of our own creation. He came to show us how to be a good human.

So many people are trying to find God. God is in us, even as a flowing well. He’s not “out there” somewhere. All we have to do is get our false selves out of the way and voila! Divine Union here we come! Sounds easy – but society makes it hard, or at least rare.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

No, not at all. There is a difference between being judgmental and stating a fact.

In rereading my post, this stuck out at me as being possibly hypocritical in itself.

First, I do not claim to be beyond hypocrisy. But I am a keen detector of hypocrisy, both in myself and in others … I have been burned so many times by hypocrites whose words I have believed it’s not even funny. I’ve seen it since first grade – when the teacher asks a question but really wants a “correct” answer rather than an “honest” answer, but won’t admit it. We all turn into a bunch of say-what-we’re-supposed-to-say beings instead of say-what-we-think. Not to mention that as my dad observed, we tend to teach kids what to think, rather than how to think. I believe he’s right, which is why we are so ill-prepared to deal with anything that goes against what we already think.

That said, for anybody who knows me well, you know I bend over backwards to give others the benefit of the doubt. I try to understand how to explain the evidence of what I see in such a way that it doesn’t speak ill of the person. I set the bar pretty high for listening to the opinions of others – even opinions that I might find disgusting – and trying to understand where they’re coming from. So no, I cannot judge correctly from outward appearances instead of internally like Jesus could, but typically I’m the last one in the room standing for someone who is behaving poorly, while others are picking on him seemingly unjustly. So that doesn’t make me right in every case, but I feel that overall I am pretty reliable as a witness to events and at reporting them without coloring them.

Alan

 

[gsbrch15]

I understand. I was made fun of for things that I didn’t know but others did. How am I supposed to know unless somebody tells me? I guess they think it’s fun somehow to catch the “academic kid” not knowing something.

That is an excellent illustration.

No, not at all. There is a difference between being judgmental and stating a fact.

Let me give you an example. My son and I once came upon a pro-life demonstration at Wichita State, put on by JFA, and talked to one of the counselors there. (JFA=Justice For All, the people who show photos of mangled babies) This guy could work a Bible like nobody’s business. Make any mention of any scripture passage and he’d have it open to the page in a few seconds. We talked about all kinds of things, including unconditional love for God and our fellow people, and even a bit about being born of the spirit. But then we let it slip that we were (gasp) Catholic! OMG. This person became rude and accusatory, and told us that we were being misled by a cult. He was bitter and angry, and only soo pious only a few minutes before. He could hardly stomach breathing the same air as us because we were Catholic. I was tempted to ask him which religious denomination both authored and then protected the Bible through the centuries so he could have a copy and beat us up with it, but I didn’t think of it.

Those are the facts of the situation. I’m saying if this guy was born again, which he claimed to be, it must not have done much for him – or maybe he was worse before? Either that or the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Love and mercy are easy when they’re not challenged. Put a Catholic in front of this guy, and he goes apoplectic, seething with bitterness and rage. That sort of conditional love and mercy is not likely to emanate from a spiritually mature person. Either that or maybe he used to be an ax murderer and has actually made a great deal of progress?

Alan

Regrettably, I was that guy at one time. That’s what I was taught. When my church sent me on evangelistic conferences I was the guy who would mention that we need to include Catholics in the category of those who needed to hear the Gospel. On the other side of the coin, when I went to pro-life dinners that were put on by the local Catholic parish, I would be the only protestant there with my daughters. We would sit at a table by ourselves feeling ostracized by the Catholics there. Maybe we had a scarlet letter on us that only they could see. Even the priest going table to table to say hi never made it to our table. A common label thrown on Catholics by friends of mine when I tell them I am going to the Catholic Church is that they are “snobby.” I started going to the Catholic Church in spite of the people, not because of the people. The lack of love can be an accusation justifiably given to people of God on Catholics and protestants alike.

Oh, and your last sentence I laughed out loud but their may be some truth to it.

I still carry some “born-again” characteristics with me into the CC. I don’t speak in tongues, or prophecy that is often associated with the charismatic crowd, but I will listen to Third Day or the David Crowder Band or Chris Tomlin and praise Jesus Christ in my “prayer closet.” I don’t know if that is catholic or not but at one of the lowest points in my life I remember singing the first stanza of Amazing Grace over and over again because that’s all I knew. And it ( or should I say He) ministered to my soul as it still does. As Horatio Spafford wrote when he sailed over the spot where his daughters drowned, “Whatever my lot Thou hast taught me to say It is well mith my soul.”