Born Again Christians

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****Kevan said
There is a difference between the assurance of present salvation and the assurance of final salvation. The former affirms that one can know his state of grace now. The latter affirms that his state of grace cannot change.

Sara says:
HUH? I would expect that response from a Fundie, no offense, however it lacks any reason or logic.

One can be assured of his judgement NOW.? If he is assured of his present salvation today, what would make him think otherwise in the future.? Today is has complete assurance, tommorow he may not agree with his theology.???

OSAS affirms that his state of grace cannot change.

I still do not see the difference, because their is no difference besides a bit of semantics and circular reasoning

OSAS and Born Again Sect’s agree on the basic principals of Salvation.

Sara****]
 
You cannot be assured of your salvation at all. You can be assured that you have the chance for salvation since Jesus Christ paid the penalty on the cross at Calvary. Only God has the right to judge what is in my heart and He will judge me as He wants.
 
Kevan,

The issue is this, does regeneration simply impart divine life as an added capacity alongside the old nature, which may or may not effect radical change?
Or does regeneration impart divine life that fundamentally reworks and recreates a person’s core nature so that a new disposition and behavior inevitably follows

(Matthew 7:22, 23). Christ says there will be many who sincerely believe they are saved, who hold to right beliefs about the person and work of Christ, who do things in His name (in the church and out), but manifest their lost condition by their disobedient lives.

Born again believers profess one cannot lose their salvation.******

100 REASONS WHY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS CANNOT LOSE THEIR SALVATION gracebelievers.org - gracebelievers Resources and Information.

OSAS, Born Again, they all believe in Assurance of Salvation, no matter how you put your spin on it.

Sara
 
The term “born again” in the orginual greek language means born from above. It means that our second brith or spiritual birth came from God. There is nothing that we can do to being it about. Not baptizem, or belonging to a church, not even saying a pray.
 
I’d like to post here as a Born again Christian (non-Catholic)

I’m not of the Catholic faith even though almost all of my in-laws are. I do not hate Catholic or think they are going to hell nor do I think the Pope is the anti-christ. My family is Baptist, my husband’s is Catholic. My husband & I are currently visiting a Presbyterian church. I think I have a very good view of both sides of the issue (Catholics vs Protestants). Both side make broad sweeping generalizations about the others without looking far enough to see if they are true.
Protestants will assume that Catholics never read their bibles, Worship Mary and follow the pope blindly. Catholics will assume that Protestants believe we can get saved, and then go out and murder someone and still get to heaven.

Niether of those assumptions is true. I choose not to be a Catholic simply because my personal reading and study of the bible has led to me to disagree with certain tenants of the Catholic faith. But I don’t think Catholics are more or less ‘saved’ than I am.

That being said… I will describe what most ‘Born Again Christians’ mean when they say that.

Born Again just means that you realize that before Christ (whether as a child, as an adult, or gradually over time) you were hopeless and without purpose. And to live without Christ is to be hopeless. But by accepting him as your Savior, either by ‘asking him into your heart’ or a personal realization or baptism, etc… you recognize that before christ you were full of sin and destined for hell and because of Christ’s sacrifice you can now be considered a new being. One who puts away the old habits of the flesh and lives a life of holiness for Christ.
Most people who call themselves Born Again have had a moment in life where they made a conscieous decision to live for God instead of themselves. Some, like myself, were raised in church all their lives and never really had a turning moment, but I know that I am a christian because I have dedicated my life to following God. I don’t recall ever making this decision. I can’t point to one specific date or time. But it still holds true for me.

Sorry for the really long post, but I had to clear up some misconceptions before I could answer.
 
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sara888:
I still do not see the difference, because their is no difference besides a bit of semantics and circular reasoning
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It’s really pretty simple.

First, you would do well to realize that not everyone who is born again believes all of the same things. You quoted a web site that preaches OSAS. I’m telling you that those people are probably in the minority among Protestants who profess to be born again. I happen to know this because I live in their world and I am a theologian. If you won’t believe me when I tell you this, there is little that I can do except to say that I am in a better position to judge this than you are.

Regarding the question of how one may have the assurance of present salvation without the assurance of final salvation, those people simply believe that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin and he who has the Son has life, but that this is not irreversible. According to them, one may embark upon a path of neglect and disobedience until his faith is finally extinguished. Because he is not walking in the light, the blood of Christ no longer cleanses him from sin and he now stands guilty and unforgiven in God’s sight.

We had a pretty good conversation about this back in August until one member got excited and began pasting in stuff from another thread which didn’t deal with the same topic. You might like to read the thread if you want to learn how we think.
 
sara888 said:
****

, Born Again, they all believe in Assurance of Salvation, no matter how you put your spin on it.****
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It is totally irrelevant how many time you say it, this is simply not true. I attend a Baptist University and seminary and I can assure you that almost all believed in the “born again” experience, but the once saved, always saved group was only the majority, and that by a slim measure.

I believed in the born again experience, but did not think the Bible taught once saved, always saved!
 
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pnewton:
I believed in the born again experience, but did not think the Bible taught once saved, always saved!
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Yes it does and it is part of the Sacraments of the Church. Namely Baptism, Penance and the Eucharist.
 
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Kevan:
It’s really pretty simple.

First, you would do well to realize that not everyone who is born again believes all of the same things. You quoted a web site that preaches OSAS. I’m telling you that those people are probably in the minority among Protestants who profess to be born again. I happen to know this because I live in their world and I am a theologian. If you won’t believe me when I tell you this, there is little that I can do except to say that I am in a better position to judge this than you are.

Regarding the question of how one may have the assurance of present salvation without the assurance of final salvation, those people simply believe that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin and he who has the Son has life, but that this is not irreversible. According to them, one may embark upon a path of neglect and disobedience until his faith is finally extinguished. Because he is not walking in the light, the blood of Christ no longer cleanses him from sin and he now stands guilty and unforgiven in God’s sight.

We had a pretty good conversation about this back in August until one member got excited and began pasting in stuff from another thread which didn’t deal with the same topic. You might like to read the thread if you want to learn how we think.
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I will certainly take your word for it. If you say that the majority of Christians that you know are not believers in OSAS then who are we to argue? But just because that is true of those around you, doesn’t mean that the opposite isn’t true among some on this board.
 
The Born Again Christian rejects infant Baptisms, thus most Catholic Baptisms are invalid in their eyes. In fact, the whole Catholic faith is invalid in their eyes due to numerous errors they say the Church promotes and glorifies.

Hi All
Another reason that some reject Catholic Baptism is because of the method of Baptism. The word Baptism comes from the Greek word Baptiso, which means to submurse or emurse. In other words to Dunk not to sprinkle.
Thanks
 
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NonDenom:
The Born Again Christian rejects infant Baptisms, thus most Catholic Baptisms are invalid in their eyes. In fact, the whole Catholic faith is invalid in their eyes due to numerous errors they say the Church promotes and glorifies.

Hi All
Another reason that some reject Catholic Baptism is because of the method of Baptism. The word Baptism comes from the Greek word Baptiso, which means to submurse or emurse. In other words to Dunk not to sprinkle.
Thanks
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Aren’t we getting off topic if we talk about the difference between Catholic and some Protestants’ view of baptism?

There are some Protestants who believe that baptism is only a symbol. So, I am uncertain as to why such believers would care how a Catholic was baptised. Perhaps you could start another thread discussing this.
 
Semper Fi:
Yes it does and it is part of the Sacraments of the Church. Namely Baptism, Penance and the Eucharist.
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I was referring to the past tense, when I was a Baptist. (but I still do not believe once saved, always saved.)
 
Actually Non-denom, there is a misconception of Catholics with baptism which you just demonstrated and I have heard many times from non-catholics. Catholics are never allowed to sprinkle water in baptism. Even though the Bible prefigures baptism in Ezekial 36:25 as sprinkling, the traditional Christian method of baptism has always been immersion or pouring.
Catholic practice is described below from the Catechism

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1239.htm

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate’s head.

God Bless
Scylla

If you would like to discuss this further we can start a new thread.
 
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deb1:
I will certainly take your word for it. If you say that the majority of Christians that you know are not believers in OSAS then who are we to argue? But just because that is true of those around you, doesn’t mean that the opposite isn’t true among some on this board.
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Of course the opposite is true among some on this board. For that matter, the opposite is true among some in my own church.
If you say that the majority of Christians that you know are not believers in OSAS
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I did not say that. In fact, it isn’t true. The majority of Christians I know do, indeed, believe in OSAS.

I did not, however, speak about the majority whom I know. I spoke about the majority period. Although it’s difficult to quantify what each person in any denomination believes, it is certain that a high percentage of those who believe in being “born again” do not believe in OSAS. That high percentage may be over 50%. That’s why I said that many, perhaps most, do not believe in OSAS.

It’s true.
 
It is interesting to try and figure out what % of Protestants actually do believe in OSAS. I grew up baptist and the churches that I was apart of believed it. I know that other denominations do not hold to it though. (Like Methodists & Nazarenes)

Any Calvinist/Predestination denom is going to adhere to it (generally), whereas free will proponates usually do not.

But I really can’t give a good estimate of what % does or doesn’t believe in OSAS. I know that in my experience, almost all Baptists (exclusing free wills) and most of the non-denoms I’ve come across are OSAS. In my area of the country SBCs make up the majority of protestant denominations.
 
sara888 said:
Am I to understand that the Born Again Sect do NOT profess Assured Salvation.?

Can a Born Again follower lose their Salvation?

Sara
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there is scripture that basically says that the inheritence can be taken away. i have to find it. i think i remember it being somehwere in romans.
 
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santaro75:
there is scripture that basically says that the inheritence can be taken away. i have to find it. i think i remember it being somehwere in romans.
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Ignatius has assembled quite a few verses arguing against OSAS. One may also find many verses that can be argued in favor of OSAS.
 
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mellysue:
It is interesting to try and figure out what % of Protestants actually do believe in OSAS.
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Southern Baptists, as a group, do believe in OSAS. Yet it is easy to find laypeople in their churches who say “Oh, I’ve never believed that.” They know what the preacher says, but they still have their doubts.

The fastest growing groups are charismatics and Pentecostalists. It is hard to find any who believe in OSAS among that group, and when you count them all together, that’s a huge percentage of the “born agains.”.

At one time, Methodists were the largest Protestant body in America (with a heavy emphasis on being born again), and they reject OSAS. Nazarenes, Free Methodists, and a hundred other offshoots from Methodism all reject OSAS, as do practically all Lutheran bodies (but many Lutheran groups don’t emphasize a “born again” experience).

Presbyterians, “Bible Churches,” and Reformed denominations affirm it.

Nearly all Black churches reject it, even Baptist ones.
 
**What the Majority of Born Again Sect followers profess
“Born again Christians” were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today” and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Being classified as “born again” is not dependent upon church or denominational affiliation or involvement.

Again there is no difference between OSAS and Born again since both sect’s profess assured salvation. I do not believe thousands of people who profess this teaching will disagree, with the exception to a few on this forum./B]

Sara**
 
**Kevan,

I would suggest you do more research on the Born Again Doctrine’s basic principals for Salvation, with regard to their belief system on Salvation.

Most if not all Born Again Christians do profess Assured Salvation-- Born Again, Salvation equals Saved. They considered themselves “Saved”

Mabey a few on here do not profess this teaching, however this is their Theology.

**If man was created with no free will and only a select few are selected for heaven, then the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was pointless. If the elect were already selected, then what was the purpose or the need for Christ to die for their sins?

If man has no free will, then God could have created man with theinability to resist his grace from the very beginning. I find it inconceivable that God would select man to hell to show his love and mercy to a select few. Just how would this demonstrate his love and mercy for the elect?****

.

Sara

Sara
 
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