Born Again Christians

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sara888:
Most if not all Born Again Christians do profess Assured Salvation-- Born Again, Salvation equals Saved. They considered themselves “Saved”
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Yes, we who have been born again do consider ourselves “saved.” That is what St. Paul mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 “By grace you have been saved through faith.” I know what will happen to me if I die tonight. I will depart and be with Christ (Philippians 1:23) because I have passed from death to life (John 5:24). This occurred on May 25th, 1969.

Some of us believe that we can never lose this salvation. Others of us believe that we can. But both groups affirm very strongly that we know what our present state is.

In the thread I invited you to check out earlier, Lazerlike42 recommended magazineThis Rock that generally agrees with what I am saying about the assurance of present salvation. You can know for certain that you have [now] eternal life (1 John 5:13). The article, being Catholic, denies OSAS; but the writer still points his readers toward the assurance of present salvation.

You don’t have to embrace OSAS in order to have the assurance of present salvation. God can give you the assurance that you have passed from death to life if you place all of your hope in Christ. Romans 8:16-17 says that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God and heirs of glory (heaven). To be justified is to be pronounced “not guilty.” When the blood of Christ has finally cleansed away the guilt of our sins, we have peace with God (Romans 5:1).
 
**Kevan said:
“You don’t have to embrace OSAS in order to have the assurance of present salvation.”

Well I do NOT concur with the above statement, I do believe you have to profess the OSAS or Born again theology to embrace such assurance of Present or Final Salvation, unless one is NOT living in continual sin remains Holy.

If you ask me today if my Salvation into the Kingdom of Heaven is assured or guranteed, I would have to say No, since nothing unclean or Holy may enter according to my Faith and belief and also according to the Bible.
I would say I deserve Purgatory, which is part of my Faith and doctrine.

But that was not the matter in question.

The debate was, do Born agian believers profess the Assured Salvation, or OSAS which is the same, the definition implies Assurance of the Kingdom.of Heaven.

The answer is Most if not all Born again Sects teach and profess this assurance or saved doctrine.

Sara.**
 
****]Kevan saidGod can give you the assurance that you have passed from death to life if you place all of your hope in Christ. Romans 8:16-17 says that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God and heirs of glory (heaven). To be justified is to be pronounced “not guilty.” When the blood of Christ has finally cleansed away the guilt of our sins, we have peace with God (Romans 5:1).

What did Jesus instruct and teach Matt, Mark, Luke John, and in the gospel of Revelatons to teach believers about sin and the consequences. ?What did Jesus teach about following the commandments.

I am sure if you read the whole NT you shall see that if we ABIDE in Faith and Have OBEDIENCE to God commands then we shall enter into the KIngdom of Heaven. Faith is also an action.

I could copy and paste thousands of verses that refute any assurance of Salvation with regard to just faith alone. If I copied the whole NT you would see, IF’S and requirements for present and final Salvation with Christ.

Also you must DEFINE FAITH and what it means to have real Faith in Christ. We are saved by grace but judged by our actions to this great faith of ours**.**

SARA
 
For any who may not have bothered to follow the link I gave earlier to the [ magazineThis Rock](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204fea2.asp" target="_blank"), I will paste in this paragraph, which seems to be consistent with the Catechism:My assurance of salvation is this: God’s promises are true. If, upon a sincere examination of conscience against the rule of Scripture, I can confess that I truly believe and truly exhibit those distinguishing marks spoken of in Scripture, particularly in 1 John, then I can have a confidence that I am in a state of grace, on my way to heaven. That confidence makes no rash presumptions about the future. If I resist God’s grace and spurn the great salvation he has wrought for me in Jesus, then I will fall away and be damned.This writer rejects OSAS, but he says “I can have a confidence that I am in a state of grace, on my way to heaven.” I have urged no more than this man has.

As in a couple of other threads, I’m only trying to get Catholics to distinguish between OSAS and assurance. You have encountered evangelicals who think that the two are inseparable, and you’ve believed it. But that isn’t true. Those evangelicals are partisan and narrow and just don’t acknowledge the huge number of their fellow evangelicals who reject OSAS. I’ve encountered many who simply believe that anyone who rejects OSAS is either a knave or a fool. But many of those who reject OSAS are neither knaves nor fools–they simply interpret the Bible differently.

This being the case, there’s nothing contrary to Catholicism about seeking the assurance of salvation for yourself. The verses I posted earlier in this thread are in your Catholic Bible and God wants to you believe them just as much as other verses. We shouldn’t pit one verse “against” another, but seek for a way to believe them all without contradiction.

I close now with a paste from the Catholic professor Peter Kreeft’s autobiographical essay [Hauled Aboard the Ark](Hauled Aboard the Ark by Peter Kreeft" target="_blank"):At Heaven’s gate our entrance ticket, according to Scripture and Church dogma, is not our good works or our sincerity, but our faith, which glues us to Jesus. He saves us; we do not save ourselves. But I find, incredibly, that 9 out of 10 Catholics do not know this, the absolutely central, core, essential dogma of Christianity. Protestants are right: most Catholics do in fact believe a whole other religion. Well over 90% of students I have polled who have had 12 years of catechism classes, even Catholic high schools, say they expect to go to Heaven because they tried, or did their best, or had compassionate feelings to everyone, or were sincere. They hardly ever mention Jesus. Asked why they hope to be saved, they mention almost anything except the Savior. Who taught them? Who wrote their textbooks? These teachers have stolen from our precious children the most valuable thing in the world, the “pearl of great price;” their faith.
 
PErhaps because I was a Protestant before joining coming into the church, I find it very believable that some can be Born Again and not believe in OSAS.

As an adult I had a very emotional experience when I became a Christian. I never accepted OSAS and when I started attending an Independent Baptist Church, I was often annoyed at the pastor’s insistence that OSAS had to be believed. One of the many reasons that I find the Catholic church appealing is its refusal to preach OSAS.
 
****Kevan said:As in a couple of other threads, I’m only trying to get Catholics to distinguish between OSAS and assurance

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. ** Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin

Now to answer our oringinal debate OSAS and Born Again.
You cant distinguish since OSAS simply defines Assurance of one’s Salvation into the Kingdom of Heaven. Catholics believe in Assurance only and if you dont continure in sin or thrown away that grace, unlike your fundies OSAS, Born Again, etc. You may try to put your spin on the Born Again Sect, I wiould like to see proof where the Doctrine of Born Again DOES STATE one Can lose Salvation as they believe in Present and Final Assurance of their salvation along with OSAS SECT.

“Have you been saved?” What the question also means is: “Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?” Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.

All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again.

Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God./B]

Sara**
 
**As a Catholic if someone asked me “Are you Saved”?

The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15,

Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."**

Sara
 
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thistle:
I’m curious what Born Again Christians mean by being “born again”. As a Catholic I know we are only born twice. First time is our physical birth and then when we are baptised we are “born again” in Christ. This is also what Jesus tells to Nicodemus in John 3.
Are Born Again Christians saying they believe in a third birth and if so, what and how do they arrive at this view?

Hi
I think that you answered your question with your question. Being born again or being born twice, the second being Baptized into Christ is what we as Christians believe.
Thanks.
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sara888:
Catholics believe in Assurance only and if you dont continure in sin or thrown away that grace, unlike your fundies OSAS, Born Again, etc. You may try to put your spin on the Born Again Sect, I wiould like to see proof where the Doctrine of Born Again DOES STATE one Can lose Salvation as they believe in Present and Final Assurance of their salvation along with OSAS SECT.
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I, and several others, have told you repeatedly that there are many among the born-again evangelicals who believe that one can lose his salvation. How can you continue to insist otherwise?

Here’s one example of an anticatholic Fundamentalist who preaches strongly against the idea of OSAS. As I’ve said before, many others, perhaps a majority of born-again evangelicals agree with him.

I am glad to see that you are now acknowledging that you can know for certain that you have eternal life (1 Jn 5:17). While rejecting the idea of OSAS, as you do, and as all Catholics reading this thread do, one still may have that assurance .

Now, Catholics I know have told me that the sacraments do not accomplish their purpose if the recipient isn’t sincere. Therefore, I have to think that mere reception of the sacraments is not enough to impart the assurance that many long for. In fact, it seems that most Catholics, who receive the sacraments, view salvation like a college exam: “Will I pass? Who can know for sure?”

I think that a better approach would be to read and meditate on the scriptures that deal with the assurance of salvation and to ask God for it. “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit” Romans 8:16).

Would you agree?
 
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Kevan said:
In fact, it seems that most Catholics, who receive the sacraments, view salvation like a college exam: “Will I pass? Who can know for sure?”

God requires us to abide in the sacraments, his commandments being one of the sacraments are his requirements for faithful Chirstians to follow.

I do believe Catholics have a better chance for final Salvation since they profess all of Gods words and teachings . The sacraments are in the bible for all Christians to apply to their faith and follow,.Is it a test, sure it is for all of us. Is a race to the KIngdom, of course it is.!

Fight the good Fight,! For there will be those who try to take away the doctrine of Christ and replace it with a doctrine of Men."**]

Sara**
 
**
Kevan said :I, and several others, have told you repeatedly that there are many among the born-again evangelicals who believe that one can lose his salvation. How can you continue to insist otherwise.

Yes there may be some who do believe one can lose their salvation , however this is not the Born Again Doctrine, Most Born Again Followers profess present and final Salvation. Read the Doctrine.

Just like some Catholics do not believe in Purgatory, however its Catholic Doctrine and most do profess and teach this place of Purgation.**]

Sara
 
**Kevan said:

I am glad to see that you are now acknowledging that you can know for certain that you have eternal life

Sara says
Thats only and if you dont throw away your grace or continue in sin.**
 
**So Kevan are you guranteed final Salvation into Heaven, How and why.?

Sara**
 
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sara888:
So Kevan are you guranteed final Salvation into Heaven, How and why?
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First, I have to decline comment on the doctrine of OSAS. Some believe it, some don’t. I see it as a great distraction, so I sidestep it.

Without OSAS, I cannot say what my state of grace will be tomorrow or the next day. I can speak only of the present.

Yes, if I die today I will go to Heaven. I am “in Christ,” an expression St. Paul used often. Romans 8:1 says that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

I was once spiritually dead, but through the new birth I passed from death to life and am alive today. John 5:24 explains it:Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.It is not my saintliness that gives me this life, it is Christ himself who is my life.

There are verses that say I must persevere until the end of my life, but there are no verses that say Christ has not taken away my sins, made me a new creature, and dwells in my heart. Those things are a reality to me, and they may be a reality to anyone who comes to Jesus helpless, as I did, and trusts him to grant salvation. The life of holiness follows, and it is possible because of the indwelling Christ. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 (John 5:10-13)
 
**Kevan said:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

SARA SAYS
Hears my word includes all of Gods request in the NT of Chirst, which include obeying the commandments of Christ.

Who do these verses apply to since they are about hearing Gods word and our salvation with him.

John2"4": He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

JOhn5 “3”: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

You see if we keep Gods commandments we dwell in him and abide in him. If we are not keeping the commandments we are not under grace since grace does not place us above Gods commandments. For it is grace that we follow and abide in Gods requests.**

SARA
 
** Kevin said:First, I have to decline comment on the doctrine of OSAS. Some believe it, some don’t. I see it as a great distraction, so I sidestep it.

Sara Says
Why its your belief, even though it is a man made doctrine. If we are guranteed entrance into the Kingdom , then why all the consequences and If’s in the bible for believers. Christ does not force us to love him, its our free will that we choose to have faith and love Christ. All the apostles had it and we have that choice. Christ can never leave us, however we can walk away or not show love to Christ .

Sara**
 
Kevan said:

Fight the good Fight,! For there will be those who try to take away the doctrine of Christ and replace it with a doctrine of Men."]

Hi
I agree with your last statement. The doctrine of men you are talking about is oral tradition.
Thanks
 
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NonDenom:
Kevan said:

Fight the good Fight,! For there will be those who try to take away the doctrine of Christ and replace it with a doctrine of Men."
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]

Hi
I agree with your last statement. The doctrine of men you are talking about is oral tradition.
ThanksSo, is it your belief that St. Paul was in direct opposition to Christ when he told us to hold fast to the tradtitions, whether by word or by mouth?
 
**Nondenom.

Sara said that. Fight the Good Fight, I was trying to show Kevan how we must remain steadfast.**
 
**Nodenom said:The doctrine of men you are talking about is oral tradition.
Thanks

The doctrine of Men is NOT based on the teachings of Christ and or his apostles. Man Made Doctrine for example could be OSAS, or fundie new age sects. Mormons ect.,.

Fundies will love me for that last statement.

Catholics believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Sara**
 
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