Born Again Christians

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sara888:
Sara Says
Why its your belief, even though it is a man made doctrine.
And how do you know that it’s my belief? I’ve never said so, and I’ve never said anything that implied that I believe it. And I never will, so you’d best stick to the topic instead of trying to divert it into another topic.

You’re grasping at straws.

You’ve quoted verses that say one must obey and persevere. Did you not read my post when I said “There are verses that say I must persevere until the end of my life”? By citing such verses you’ve added nothing to the discussion. My posts have been about the assurance of salvation. Apparently you aren’t interested in that. And since I’m not interested in the idea of OSAS, where you keep trying to drag me, I suppose we’ll part for now.

Adieu
 
**** Kevan said:
And how do you know that it’s my belief? I’ve never said so, and I’ve never said anything that implied that I believe it. And I never will, so you’d best stick to the topic instead of trying to divert it into another topic.

Sara says :

You teach and debate basic Fundamentalism .
You have claimed many times over you believe in ASSURED FINAL SALVATION. The term OSAS only defines groups or sects who Profess and teach Final Assurance of Salvation****.

Sara
 
**Kevan said: My posts have been about the assurance of salvation. Apparently you aren’t interested in that. And since I’m not interested in the idea of OSAS, where you keep trying to drag me, I suppose we’ll part for now.

YOU PROFESS IT IN EVERY POST THE OSAS DOCTRINE. YOUR DOCTRINE OF BELIEFS ACCORDING TO YOUR STATEMENTS AND DEBATES PUTS YOU IN THE ASSURED SALVATION OR OSAS BELIEVERS GOSPEL.

THAT IS WHAT OSAS DEFINES- ASSURANCE OF FINAL SALVATION REGARDLESS OF GRACE. IT PLACES GRACE ABOVE ANY OF GODS LAWS AND OR COMMANDMENTS.

SO DO BELIEVE IN ASSURED SALVATON REGARDLESS OF GODS LAW - YES OR NO**

SARA
 
ARTFL Project: French-English Dictionary

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Nondenom,
The difference between Catholic understanding of the Bible which Catholics call Sacred Tradition and Born Again Christian understanding of the Bible is Catholics acknowledge that there is an understanding of the Bible passed on. For many Born Again Christians they think that tradition is a bad word and deny it citing “traditions of men”.
Many dont realize they receive their own faith traditions from other men, who founded other churches.

What needs to be understood is no-one comes to the Bible without any preconception. Where does the unity of different Born Again Christians come from? From their beliefs handed down by their faith traditions. I attended Calvary Chapel, our faith tradition was first defined by Chuck Smith who got his ideas from different faith traditions, coming out of the Jesus Freak movement, Baptists and Fundamentalists.

A Baptist would get his faith tradition depending upon his affiliation and pastor traced back to John Smithe, who I believe got his faith tradition from Separatists.

Born Again Christian beliefs come from several different faith traditions and it really depends on who founded their individual churches. I am most familiar with Calvary Chapel so that is what I described.

Faith traditions continue in Born Again Christian churches, as an example, Vineyard Church received its faith tradition from Calvary Chapel and broke off in 1982.

God Bless
Scylla
 
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palmas85:
The Born Again Christian rejects infant Baptisms, thus most Catholic Baptisms are invalid in their eyes. In fact, the whole Catholic faith is invalid in their eyes due to numerous errors they say the Church promotes and glorifies. By and large Born Again Christians are not ecumenically inclined at all, and feel a extraordinary need to promote their agenda and beliefs. They do have a genuine concern for your soul though and will generally make extraordinary efforts to convert you especially if you are Catholic … The really interseting thing about their belief is that once you have accepted Jesus Christ, you basically have a get out of jail free card. Once the grace has been given and accepted, no matter what you do, you are saved. You cannot be denied Paradise no matter what happens … Only by freely accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior will you be saved. Nothing else matters. At least that is what they believe.
I just wanted to add a few comments. The main reason why Born-Again Christians don’t really consider the infant baptism effective is that the child in question has no idea of what’s going on or who Jesus is. During the time following Jesus’ crucifixion, you had to demonstrate that you knew the significance of what it meant to be baptized as a Christian and if the apostles weren’t convinced that you didn’t truly believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He is our Lord and Savior, then you weren’t baptized. The standard was so strict that you see Paul in the first chapter of 1 Corinthians denying all the priviledge of baptism with the exception of only two men who’d convinced him beyond doubt that they were true believers.

I also agree that many Christians believe the Roman Catholic Church to be fraught with errors and it IS true that we genuinely care enough about human souls to talk to Catholics about Jesus, but by and large, we don’t try to force a conversion. Experience has taught that Catholics are most likely to resist, which is funny because their beliefs are so close to Born-Again Christian beliefs to begin with.

I don’t think that I could agree with the “get out of jail free card” mentality, only because being a Christian doesn’t give us free reign to do whatever we feel like guilt-free. True, we make mistakes after being Born-Again, but we also know that we should do our best to avoid all manner of sin before God. We take instruction from Romans 6:14-16 with regards to sinning after being saved. In my King James Bible, it reads as follows:
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”
 
I don’t think that I could agree with the “get out of jail free card” mentality, only because being a Christian doesn’t give us free reign to do whatever we feel like guilt-free. True, we make mistakes after being Born-Again, but we also know that we should do our best to avoid all manner of sin before God. We take instruction from Romans 6:14-16 with regards to sinning after being saved. In my King James Bible, it reads as follows:
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”
The entire post was awesome but to this particualarily I want to give a** Woot Woot! ** :amen:
 
I agree as well (not so much with the first paragraph, but the last part is good.) 😉
 
** **Justin Martyr

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology 61 A.D. 151]).
 
And as far back as St. Augustine with regards to infant baptism:

** “**It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but, “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam” (Letters 98:2 A.D. 408]). ~St. Augustine
 
I just wanted to add a few comments. The main reason why Born-Again Christians don’t really consider the infant baptism effective is that the child in question has no idea of what’s going on or who Jesus is. During the time following Jesus’ crucifixion, you had to demonstrate that you knew the significance of what it meant to be baptized as a Christian and if the apostles weren’t convinced that you didn’t truly believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He is our Lord and Savior, then you weren’t baptized. The standard was so strict that you see Paul in the first chapter of 1 Corinthians denying all the priviledge of baptism with the exception of only two men who’d convinced him beyond doubt that they were true believers.
That may be true of adults, but I would say that when Paul baptized whole households he must have baptized the children. There is an interesting parallel to today’s Catholics. Today, if parents wish their child baptized, they must promise to raise the child in the faith. So in the passages you refer to, the people had to have a faith. However, the Church doesn’t hold it against babies that they just so happen to be too young to understand, especially since we believe baptism saves us (so denying a child would be cruel). So basically, in both cases the baptised person is required to have faith, the only difference is when that faith will be had, now for adults and later for infants.
 
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Lazerlike42:
That may be true of adults, but I would say that when Paul baptized whole households he must have baptized the children. There is an interesting parallel to today’s Catholics. Today, if parents wish their child baptized, they must promise to raise the child in the faith. So in the passages you refer to, the people had to have a faith. However, the Church doesn’t hold it against babies that they just so happen to be too young to understand, especially since we believe baptism saves us (so denying a child would be cruel). So basically, in both cases the baptised person is required to have faith, the only difference is when that faith will be had, now for adults and later for infants.
The Catechism also mentions the baptising of whole households:

**1252 **The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.
 
Another good paragraph:

**1250 **Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
 
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Lazerlike42:
That may be true of adults, but I would say that when Paul baptized whole households he must have baptized the children. There is an interesting parallel to today’s Catholics. Today, if parents wish their child baptized, they must promise to raise the child in the faith. So in the passages you refer to, the people had to have a faith. However, the Church doesn’t hold it against babies that they just so happen to be too young to understand, especially since we believe baptism saves us (so denying a child would be cruel). So basically, in both cases the baptised person is required to have faith, the only difference is when that faith will be had, now for adults and later for infants.
But see, that’s the whole danger right there, isn’t it? One piece of scripture mentions baptizing an entire household, but who’s to say that this particular household even* had* a baby? Not all that long ago, my house had me, my wife, my cat and two of her friends who were staying over for a couple of months while they looked for a house. Had a Christian come to my household to baptize our lot and come away saying s/he baptized everybody in the household, are we to assume that my cat was baptized as well? Might seem like a silly notion, but my cat would know just as much about the saving grace of our Lord than an infant would, which is to say nothing.

It sounds like you might be thinking about the concept of baptismal regeneration. The drawback to that concept is that it goes against passages like John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 which tell us that salvation is by faith alone. Anything above and beyond faith in Jesus Christ as being necessary for salvation is a works-based salvation and faith PLUS works to attain salvation is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross wasn’t sufficient to purchase our salvation. When somebody says that we must be baptized in order to be saved, they aren’t convinced that Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (see Romans 5:8 or 2 Corinthians 5:21)…. and faith is about complete trust in Jesus. Baptism is definitely an important step of obedience AFTER salvation, but by Biblical accounts, it is not a REQUIREMENT for salvation. If it was, the thief crucified alongside of Jesus would have been doomed to hell. But Jesus told him otherwise.

You mentioned, “Today, if parents wish their child baptized, they must promise to raise the child in the faith.” A Christian mother and father can promise to raise a child in the Christian faith and that child could still grow up to reject Jesus.

All who read this are, of course, free to disagree with me if they choose, but I don’t personally believe that God would send an unbaptized infant to hell. I don’t see how an infant would be held accountable for their own original sin. It also looks like King David believed as I do. As you may recall, David’s child died, yet he found consolation by saying, “Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (see 2 Samuel 12:23). David knew that he would see his child in heaven one day, so he must have been assured that God would be fair to his child. Again, disagree if you wish, but that’s what many Born Again Christians believe. 🙂
 
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ChristianWAB:
But see, that’s the whole danger right there, isn’t it? One piece of scripture mentions baptizing an entire household, but who’s to say that this particular household even* had* a baby?
Maybe now you will start to see why St. Paul said that it was important to “hold fast to the traditions which I have past on to you, either by word of mouth or by letter…” With little searching you can easily find writings by early Christians showing practice of infant baptism back [at least] to the second century.
 
E.E.N.S.:
Maybe now you will start to see why St. Paul said that it was important to “hold fast to the traditions which I have past on to you, either by word of mouth or by letter…” With little searching you can easily find writings by early Christians showing practice of infant baptism back [at least] to the second century.

Actually, you can find evidence of infant baptism even earlier than ***that ***if you go back further. The problem is that many of those were ceremonies attributed to pagan rituals (like worshipping a round disc as a god for example). The Eucharist, though assumed to be a Christian ritual actually got its start long before the birth of Jesus to the time of the Egyptians. Since it’s well known that history can be rewritten in as few as two generations, Born-Again Christians tend to lean more towards the Bible than anything else to provide them written truth. It’s probably the only book that has truly stood the test of time… and when you read any passage related to baptism, you see the same general theme; that being the fact that adult believers seek it.

Infant baptism certainly won’t harm the baby physically, but it’s more of a sign of the parents’ desire to follow God than anything else. If baptizing your infant in the Catholic church makes a mother or father feel better and give them peace of mind, I say go for it. But I know from having had an infant baptism myself (plus confirmation) that I was still relatively apathetic about God by that time.

It took seven years following my confirmation for me to care enough about Jesus to learn more about Him. And I can tell you first-hand that the VAST majority of 18 year olds being confirmed on that same day were just anxious to get out of there and go on living their lives without God in their hearts. Catholicism will have people go through the motions, but if it’s not in your heart to follow God, none of those rituals and traditions matter.
 
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ChristianWAB:
Actually, you can find evidence of infant baptism even earlier than ***that ***if you go back further. The problem is that many of those were ceremonies attributed to pagan rituals (like worshipping a round disc as a god for example). The Eucharist, though assumed to be a Christian ritual actually got its start long before the birth of Jesus to the time of the Egyptians. Since it’s well known that history can be rewritten in as few as two generations, Born-Again Christians tend to lean more towards the Bible than anything else to provide them written truth. It’s probably the only book that has truly stood the test of time… and when you read any passage related to baptism, you see the same general theme; that being the fact that adult believers seek it.

Infant baptism certainly won’t harm the baby physically, but it’s more of a sign of the parents’ desire to follow God than anything else. If baptizing your infant in the Catholic church makes a mother or father feel better and give them peace of mind, I say go for it. But I know from having had an infant baptism myself (plus confirmation) that I was still relatively apathetic about God by that time.

It took seven years following my confirmation for me to care enough about Jesus to learn more about Him. And I can tell you first-hand that the VAST majority of 18 year olds being confirmed on that same day were just anxious to get out of there and go on living their lives without God in their hearts. Catholicism will have people go through the motions, but if it’s not in your heart to follow God, none of those rituals and traditions matter.
The truth about baptism resides firmly in Scripture. It is said the be reborn that we must be baptized - it would be an injustice not to baptize a child.

Holding to Tradition is also firmly rooted in Scripture - you can’t seperate the two and keep the integrity of the fulness of truth.

(But no need to repost what has already been posted.)
 
ChristianWAB, I am not sure you know how offensive that last post was, as it directly attacks the belief of most of Christianity in the Eucharist. If you are going to make a comment like that, cite some credible evidence.

If you would like to discuss the belief in the Eucharist, by Christianity that includes ancient Churches, Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist and other Christians we can start a thread on that but please realize this is a deeply held belief that we can explain and back up. So if you would like to discuss this, just copy these posts and start a new thread.

You can illustrate how the early church was paganized and show early christian writings trying to defend symbolic understanding of the Eucharist. We can illustrate and defend the understanding of the faith we have recieved from the apostles.

If you would like to discuss tradition we can do that here, Catholic and Born Again Christian traditions

God Bless
Scylla
 
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ChristianWAB:
The Eucharist, though assumed to be a Christian ritual actually got its start long before the birth of Jesus to the time of the Egyptians.
Interesting, so it wasn’t Jesus who gave us His Body and Blood in the Eucharist, but it was the Egyptions? I didn’t even know that they knew Him.

Either you have zero understanding of the Eucharist, or you are trying to…I don’t even know what.

Ridiculous.
 
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