Born Again Christians

[Matt14]

Hi Lillith

Lillith:

Hi Matt…as Catholics we believe that we inherit original sin from Adam, and so while babies are certainly not sinful or guilty…they have inherited the sin that causes the death of our bodies, original sin that is.

If babies are born with sin guilt that causes the death of our bodies (which I do not deny), then what does that infant baptism do? It does not take away the thread of physical death, does it?

The Bible says baptism is for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38 and 22:16.

This remission can’t be the original sin guilt that causes physical death. It must be the guilt of the sins we commit ourselves, right?

After all:

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

 

[Matt14]

pnewton:

Remember this point next time “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” is applied universally.

Hi pnewton, good to see you.

In the context of Romans 3, I believe the all Paul refers to is Jews and Gentiles, as Paul spent the previous passages explaining how all groups were guilty before God. In my understanding Paul is not talking about individuals, but rather nations.

 

[Matt14]

TNT:

There, that was no so diffucult.
So,
** A Christian is not** a child of God until he or she has been buried with Christ in baptism

Is not a fully infomative statement, because:

some are children of God sans any Baptism And, natural birth is fully sufficient to make one a child of God and heir to heaven.

The Catholic church says no one is an adopted child of God merely by natual birth. They must be "born again of water and the Holy Spirit. ie baptism.
That’s all.
The root difference is not baptism, as the COC is in full conformity to the Catholic Faith.
The root is the disagreement about the deprivation of sanctifying grace at natural birth, and that the redeeming salvation of Christ must be applied to each . It does not occur automatically from the first (natural) birth, but only the second birth which all must receive.
(Sanctifying grace is just a summary phrase that encompasses all the benefits of baptism, in this case…child of God, justified, member of the church, etc…)

Since God commanded the seal of the type of baptism in the OT infant, the same applies to the antitype, which you admit is always greater than the type.
The first is the symbol or shadow, the second is the reality.

I think the biggest divide appears to be that the catholic church teaches that baptism can save without faith. Is this the catholic understanding?

The church of Christ understanding is that infants are not capable of sinning, and therefore have no sin to be remitted.

Another question: What about aborted infants? I’m sure you and I both stand against abortion, so if a child dies in utero, no baptism, what happens to this child?

 

[Matt14]

TNT:

Very well then.
**Must one be a member of the church to be saved, that is, the Body of Christ?
**
If yes, then how are these 2 examples made members of the Body of Christ ie the Church?
If no, then non-christains can be saved, unless you believe that infant children of non-christian families are members of the Church of Christ.

As stated in the last post, infants unable to sin, or hear and believe, are not in danger of damnation. Jesus said “of such is the kingdom of heaven,” referring to children, which I understand means they have an innocence worthy of the kingdom.

 

[Lillith]

Matt14:

Hi Lillith
If babies are born with sin guilt that causes the death of our bodies (which I do not deny), then what does that infant baptism do? It does not take away the thread of physical death, does it?

Catholics believe that Baptism does several things, including remission of sin, both original, that we are born with and actual that we aquire (which of course babies could not)…it does not keep our bodies from dieing, but we do, at that point, receive the gift of Grace…

that agrees with your beautiful passages here:

Matt:

The Bible says baptism is for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38 and 22:16.

Matt:

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

AMEN!

 

[TNT]

Matt14:

I think the biggest divide appears to be that the catholic church teaches that baptism can save without faith. Is this the catholic understanding?

The church of Christ understanding is that infants are not capable of sinning, and therefore have no sin to be remitted.

Another question: What about aborted infants? I’m sure you and I both stand against abortion, so if a child dies in utero, no baptism, what happens to this child?

I gave you a pretty complete synopsis of the catholic position.
In the case of the aborted, the sin of the person who does this is infinitely greater if the child has lost the opportunity to be baptised. In your scenerio they just pop into heaven to eternal supernatural bliss.

If Jn 3:5 is taken literally which I believe you do:

Jesus answered: Amen, amen (double witness or testimony as God and Man) I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[5 “Unless a man be born again”… By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.] *

6 That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7 Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.

There is no exception here…none.]

And again in Mk16:16:
He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

There is on your part a certain condemnation of infants implied wherein
The infant, you say cannot believe, ie have faith.
MK 16:16 tells you that he who does NOT believe is condemned. An infant does not believe, therefore condemned. That is where you end up if all must believe positively to be saved (or baptised).
But then you go right ahead and say that infants go straight to heaven WITHOUT ever believing.
**Which is it?
If you can send an infant to heaven with no belief at all, why am I criticised for Baptising and infant who has no belief?
** There might be something to the idea that “he who does not believe…” should be taken as “he who refuses to believe…”
Which an infant does NOT refuse to believe.
Ex 18:20 I realize is the singular objection by the COC to the effects of Original Sin.
The Catholic Church has used that “Original Sin” phrase for many centuries, long before the english language. The “Sin” is in this case not a Positive act of the individual at all. You cannot use positive sinning by an idividual as the thing about which the catholic church speaks. Do not do this. It is a straw man to the catholic position.
The Church has always taught that it is the ABSENCE of something that should be present…a deprivation, not a positive commiting.
"That which is born of flesh IS flesh. That which is born of spirit IS spirit.
The infant was not born of Spirit but of flesh. And must be born again.

The questions I proposed remain:
**Must one be a member of the church to be saved, that is, the Body of Christ?
**Yes or No please.
If yes, then how are these 2 examples made members of the Body of Christ ie the Church?
If no, then non-christains can be saved, unless you believe that infant children of non-christian families are members of the Church of Christ and adopted children of God.
Do NON christians go to heaven?
Re: Ex 18:20:
Ephesians 2:3 In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:
By NATURE. The Nature is the essence of the thing, its essential existent attributes. NOT by what we DO but by what we ARE ie our Nature, we are children of wrath in our essential attributes.
Ez 18:20 is clearly refering to something a parent does positively, not a part of their nature, or existence, but a voluntary choice of sinning. It does NOT apply to our nature of which Paul speaks of humanity.
And again:
2 Peter 1 :4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world…
We see here a changing of our “nature as children of wrath” by partaking the Divine Nature. (A big part of Baptism)

To be Contd…
Later we will spend more time on Rom 5

 

[TNT]

Contd…
And again:
Romans 5 :12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned…
We see clearly that in Adam’s case, the EZ18:20 does not apply. It is too plain that Adam’s consequences PASSED on to all men.
You have already admitted to this propagation of consequence. WE DIE. So, in Adam’s case you and all men must be outside EZ18:20, in this case because ADAM IS the cause of your death and mine.

Later, Let’s look at Rom 5 with a few more verses:
*
to be Cont’d…
*

 

[TNT]

Matt14:

I think the biggest divide appears to be that the catholic church teaches that baptism can save without faith. Is this the catholic understanding?

The church of Christ understanding is that infants are not capable of sinning, and therefore have no sin to be remitted.

1. The catholic church teaches that one can receive baptism if they are UNABLE to have faith, and THEREFORE DO NOT LIKEWISE REFUSE IT.
   Big difference.
2. “Not capable of sinning” is also the teaching of the catholic church. The problem here is that you keep setting up a straw man in the face of denying Original Sin, which has NOT a thing to do with an individual’s positive sinning.
   Get off it and quit equating what the catholic church does not teach about Original Sin.
   To help you, maybe YOU should tell us what exactly the catholic church teaches about Original Sin, so we know if you are “in the ball park”.
   You could start by saying “it is NOT a positve sinful act by an individual…”

 

[Matt14]

TNT:

Get off it and quit equating what the catholic church does not teach about Original Sin.
To help you, maybe YOU should tell us what exactly the catholic church teaches about Original Sin, so we know if you are “in the ball park”.

I’ve enjoyed this conversation, but I think it would be best for me to step away. Thanks a lot, it’s been interesting.

God bless you all!

 

[Lillith]

God Bless you also Matt! I truely hope that you have not been offended, and if you have I apologize

 

[TNT]

Matt14:

I’ve enjoyed this conversation, but I think it would be best for me to step away. Thanks a lot, it’s been interesting.

God bless you all!

While you are stepping aside, you might enjoy an audio on a former baptist-now-catholic discussion of infant baptism:
Here it is. I have not listened to it, but will this evening.
God Bless.

 

[Matt14]

Lillith:

God Bless you also Matt! I truely hope that you have not been offended, and if you have I apologize

No, not offended in the least! As a minister of the gospel, I’m learning to discuss profitable things, and pass over the unprofitable. I didn’t come here to anger anyone, and I’m trying to keep it that way.

in the love of Christ,

Matt

 

[InChristAlone_1]

HI!
I wanted to make a quick entry regarding Born Again Christians.
Just my story… I don’t want to bring any debates or arguments up.
I was brought up Catholic. Did my first communion, confirmation, you know all that I thought was required of me to be “saved”
So I thought…
BY the Grace of God, I began listening to the Word of God.The Bible…I can pin out my day, Wednesday, Sepetember 17,2003.
I finally received Jesus as my Lord and Savior…and shortly after got Baptised, as 23 year old. Why?
I began to read the Bible, the New Testament to be exact…
And began to question the Catholic faith…I am, in no way, by no means anti-Catholic. But I realized, that All I need is Christ.
After all, He is the one who gave His life for me… Only in Him.
Being Born Again means I die, in Baptism to my old self, and I am a new person. I follow Christ. I worship Christ. I live for Chirst. All my born again brothers and sisters feel the same way. Regarding wether you can loose your salvation or not, or the OSAS thing. …You know, Once you are TRULLY Born Again, all of your desires change. You live to Please the Lord. Never will we be perfect, never will we stop sinning, we are Human. But we make a Conscious Effort to stop living for the World. We are no longer catering the World but live for Christ.
True Born Again Christians, make that effort…not all. Those maybe don’t “loose” their salvation, but give it up… They give up their salvation for the world. Or maybe, they were never saved to begin with… I think, they were never saved to begin with.
It’s NOT an emotional Hype, It’s a true commitment to The Lord.

And here is my Question…What about all those people who attend Mass, regularly, do all their sacramental requirements, yet Monday through Saturday forget to take the Lord along with them. They confess their sin to the priest, they take communion, yet they walk out of church to commit the same sin they had just confessed…
Do they have salvation?

Thanks-and sorry for such a long response.
I hope I don’t get attacked by it

 

[scylla]

Don’t worry I at least wont attack you, but your question about Catholics who attend Mass but don’t take the Lord with them throughout their daily lives probably are very much the same as Born Again Christians who just go to Sunday service sometimes weekday also and don’t live Christian lives.
Since neither Catholics or Born Again Christians believe in earning their way into heaven we don’t know, it is up to God.

I was pretty much like you I guess, I grew up Catholic and ended up joining an Evangelical Church. You can search my story by looking up my previous posts.

I have come home to the Catholic Church after much study, prayer and stress, because of my love for Jesus. Yet I do owe an Evangelical Church for first bringing about that conversion to Jesus.

God Bless
Scylla

God Bless
Scylla

 

[deb1]

InChristAlone!!:

.

And here is my Question…What about all those people who attend Mass, regularly, do all their sacramental requirements, yet Monday through Saturday forget to take the Lord along with them. They confess their sin to the priest, they take communion, yet they walk out of church to commit the same sin they had just confessed…
Do they have salvation?

Thanks-and sorry for such a long response.
I hope I don’t get attacked by it

Don’t worry, I don’t attack I believe that you are probably more sensitive toward the faults of Catholics because that is the denomination that you grew up in. I grew up baptist and I was, at one point, more inclined to see the hypocrisy of my original denomination. It used to truely bother me that there were baptist who could say all the right words, attend all the correct bible studies, cry at the right moments, while waving their hands in the air and still go home and sleep with their neighbor’s spouse.

It isn’t that Catholics or Baptist are either better or worse then one another, it just means that there are flawed people in both denominations.

I do think that** some** Born Againers without realizing it put a lot of pressure on one another to conform. Because salvation is such a personal events and the possibility of loosing one’s salvation is not allowed for, there is a tendency to judge the sincerity of a Christian by externals. Do they want to go to church? Do they get emotional at the right moment? Can they quote endless bible verses? So, there ends up being a lot of pressure on the new Christian to act and think a certain way. I’ve even heard sermons that claimed that a Christian wouldn’t want to watch certain movies or listen to certain music. Among these types of Born Againers there is very little room for individuality.

Now, I would like to say that I know all Born Againers aren’t like this. Some don’t believe in OSAS and for those, I apologize if I lumped you all together. I am only talking about my own experiences.

 

[sara888]

****And here is my in :Question…What about all those people who attend Mass, regularly, do all their sacramental requirements, yet Monday through Saturday forget to take the Lord along with them. They confess their sin to the priest, they take communion, yet they walk out of church to commit the same sin they had just confessed…
Do they have salvation?

Catholics Have Purgatory, why? Because nothing unlcean or unHOLY can enter in the KIngdom of Heaven as the bible state,. and if they intentionally keep sinning Catholics have Hell.

Do Born Again Christians gain immediate entrance at death into Heaven.? Yes, why because they profess Christ as their personal Savior, and nothing they do- no sin can take away their salvation into the Kingdom.

Sara****]

 

[sara888]

deb said:
It isn’t that Catholics or Baptist are either better or worse then one another, it just means that there are flawed people in both denominations.

There are sinners in every denomination on earth, the point is as a Christian all of us are to refrain from sin. Being truly sorry for ones sins and not repeat the same offense against God. If I died today I would not go to Heaven, as I do not deserve heaven, I deserve Hell, however GOd is more merciful than just so I would plead for his mercy and recieve purgatory. SINNERS DONT GO TO HEAVEN.

We all sin over and over, and if we are truly sorry or repent then we continue a Holy life or sinless life for God.****

Sara

 

[E.E.N.S]

Catholics Have Purgatory, why? Because nothing unlcean or unHOLY can enter in the KIngdom of Heaven as the bible state,. and if they intentionally keep sinning Catholics have Hell.
**

**Do Born Again Christians gain immediate entrance at death into Heaven.? Yes, why because they profess Christ as their personal Savior, and nothing they do- no sin can take away their salvation into the Kingdom. ****

Sara]

I am not sure if you meant this as it sounds, but/so let me clarify:

Both Catholics and “Born-Again-Christians” have heaven, hell and purgatory…it’s no different in actuality. Now, our faiths will differ, but that doesn’t change the fact that there is indeed a purgatory for all who enter into heaven not yet fully purified.

 

[E.E.N.S]

**…SINNERS DONT GO TO HEAVEN.**

Some sinners (not all) will go to heaven, just not directly to heaven, they will be purified first, [purgatory].

(I believe this is what you are trying to say, it’s just that your post left room for clarification. )

 

[sara888]

**Both Catholics and “Born-Again-Christians” have heaven, hell and purgatory…it’s no different in actuality. Now, our faiths will differ, but that doesn’t change the fact that there is indeed a purgatory for all who enter into heaven not yet fully purified.

The Born Again Christian doctrine does not profess such a state of Purgatory. Most Born agains profess the Assured Salvation doctrine.

I believe Sinners after Purification do go to Heaven, my point is, if a CHRISTIAN continues in sin. he may not make Purgatory, but rather Hell.

Sara**