Born Again?

[sara888]

Think, oppostites…
Total Depravity vs Free Will
Unconditional Election vs Conditional Election
Limited Atonement vs Universal Redemption
Irresistable Grace vs. Resistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) vs. Can Fall from Grace

For details see:
the-highway.com/compare.html

**Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation . that is Arminiarn tenet of doctrine. where does free will apply to this tenet of your doctrine.???

Thanks. Jan**

 

[sara888]

**Works of human effort are not cause or contribution to salvation.

This is also part of the tenets of your doctrine.

Explain this …??

Thanks Jan**

 

[Syele]

**Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation . that is Arminiarn tenet of doctrine. where does free will apply to this tenet of your doctrine.???

Thanks. Jan**

God allows us the choice to believe or not through His grace. He did not decide for us… He offered us a choice. this is Free will. We ARE able to make such an effort through the Grace of God. who told you Arminians believe you can’t?

 

[sara888]

**Within the broad scope of church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common.

Nonetheless, they are often viewed as archrivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over the doctrines of predestination and salvation.

Jan**

 

[Syele]

**Works of human effort are not cause or contribution to salvation.

This is also part of the tenets of your doctrine.

Explain this …??

Thanks Jan**

Works contrubute to salvation only in as far as Faith in God is a work. Arminians also belive that while your Salvation can not be taken from you by anyone… You can freely give it up. This could be a work contributing to unsalvation I suppose.

 

[sara888]

**Arminianism is perhaps most prominent in the Methodist movement.

Arminianism holds to the following tenets

Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
Salvation is possible by grace alone

Works of human effort are not cause or contribution to salvation
God’s election is conditional on faith in Jesus

Jesus’ atonement was potentially for all people

God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith .

Jan**

 

[Syele]

**Within the broad scope of church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common.

Nonetheless, they are often viewed as archrivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over the doctrines of predestination and salvation.

Jan**

they are the same ONLY in that they are both protestant. I suggest you read up on the Synod of Dort a bit.

 

[lak611]

Think, oppostites…
Total Depravity vs Free Will
Unconditional Election vs Conditional Election
Limited Atonement vs Universal Redemption
Irresistable Grace vs. Resistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) vs. Can Fall from Grace

For details see:
the-highway.com/compare.html

Thanks, Syele. Although I am a Catholic, Arminianism makes much more sense to me than Calvinism.

 

[lak611]

they are the same ONLY in that they are both protestant. I suggest you read up on the Synod of Dort a bot.

I read the link in Syele’s other post, and they don’t seem alike AT ALL! Completely opposite, actually.

 

[Syele]

I read the link in Syele’s other post, and they don’t seem alike AT ALL! Completely opposite, actually.

Yep lak I Identify with Catholics way more than Calvinists. you are correct that they are opposites… remember… the Synod of Dort wrote out TULIP specifically to try and show that Armininians are wrong about everything.

 

[sara888]

they are the same ONLY in that they are both protestant. I suggest you read up on the Synod of Dort a bit.

**Thank you, however I suggest you read up on your own tenets of doctrine on Arminianism .

I believe both sects OSAS , Born Again are man-made false doctrines as they both refute or do not follow apostolic succession.

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Jan**

 

[Syele]

**Thank you, however I suggest you read up on your own tenets of doctrine on Arminianism .

I believe both sects OSAS , Born Again are man-made false doctrines as they both refute or do not follow apostolic succession.

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Jan**

I don’t need to read up for this purpose. I never claimed to be Catholic or under apostolic succession. You were appearing to say that Calvinists and Armnnians are the same. Tha’ts about as accurate as if I equated Catholics with Jews on the basis that…well neither are Arminians.

 

[lak611]

I don’t need to read up for this purpose. I never claimed to be Catholic or under apostolic succession. You were appearing to say that Calvinists and Armnnians are the same. Tha’ts about as accurate as if I equated Catholics with Jews on the basis that…well neither are Arminians.

This is correct. Calvinists and Arminians are polar opposites. Their beliefs on how one gets saved and stays saved are completely contradictory.

 

[Sufi]

We were born ok the first time.

 

[MariaG]

Thank you Marie, Lets put it this way, in all my years refuting the particular sect (OSAS) I have never heard anyone dispute eternal salvation, along with most if not all followers preaching Lawlessness and irresistible grace which they willl refute, however their statements prove a different view point.

MOST in this particular sect, believe nothing can take away their salvation, along with your reference to Calvinist view points, MOST do practice or follow the 5 points of Calvinism, again regardless if they omit it, since it is quite obvious in their statements.

Go scroll this board and read Sandusky and Apops responses for examples.,both agree they do not preach irresistible grace and lawlessness however,their commentaires suggest something different.

Also with regard to the Born Again Sect, MOST again do profess assured salvation, which means nothing can take away their salvation from God or fall from Grace.

Both sects do not believe or are taught salvation can be lost as a general rule.

**And with my typo to new age, I do understand and interpret its meaning. My statement was in regard to these new fundie groups who preach a man - made doctrine… **

Jan

I agree with you on most or your assessment of OSAS. I disagree with your assessment and use of the word Lawlessness. You may wish to define what you mean by that. I would define that as to mean that they teach that one can do anything they want without regards to anything.

Respectfully Jan, assurance of salvation and “assured salvation” are two different things. One can be lost and the other cannot.

I, a former Protestant who claims the born again title and the current Protestants who would define themselves in that manner disagree with your assessment that “most” born again people who self define in that manner believed in OSAS.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I would never accuse most prostestants of such absurd practices, as most Mainstream Traditional Prostestants do believe one can lose their salvation or fall from grace.

Its these fundie groups for example . the OSAS and Born Again, that preach a man-made doctrine. Most of these followers that I have had experience debating will agree they cannot lose their salvation… Most OSAS or Born Agains do follow the 5 points of Calvinism which is quite obvious from their commentaires or statements.

Most do preach commandment keeping is essential to Faith ,however non-essential to Salvation, which is not biblical or what Christ teaches.

Many will claim they keep the commandments because they are saved or have been born again, suggesting irresistible grace. etc. etc. etc… Its these particular 2 groups that do follow the 5 point system of Calvinism, even if they do not own up to it.

It is quite clear from their commentaries and statements.

Jan

Also respectfully Jan, your use of the prejudicial term “fundie” is against forum rules.

CONDUCT RULES

1. Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.

You are incorrect when you state that “Most” fundamentlists with the “born again” title believe in OSAS.

 

[MariaG]

This is correct. Calvinists and Arminians are polar opposites. Their beliefs on how one gets saved and stays saved are completely contradictory.

Yup. And many who could be defined as Arminian, do not even know that term but would definitely self-define themselves as born again.

Again, I will feel the need to stress this point.

Assured ** Salvation does not equal Assurance** of Salvation.

Assured salvation would be OSAS. Assurance of Salvation means one can be confident in ones salvation but can certainly backslide and end up in hell after being saved at one time.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mikemck]

You are incorrect when you state that “Most” fundamentlists with the “born again” title believe in OSAS.

That’s funny, I’ve been a fundamentalist for about fifteen years now and have ministered in or worked with dozens of churches.

I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a fundamentalist who doesn’t believe OSAS.

I know that I’ve never met one.

 

[MariaG]

That’s funny, I’ve been a fundamentalist for about fifteen years now and have ministered in or worked with dozens of churches.

I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a fundamentalist who doesn’t believe OSAS.

I know that I’ve never met one.

Well now you can say that you have.

Syele is one.

I used to be one.

All my brothers and sister in Christ in my old church are ones. I wish I could personally introduce you to them.

And interestingly enough, I rarely have met those who would call themselves fundamentlist who ARE OSAS
But this is the problem with Protestant theology. Even those who would use the same title, “Fundamentalist” or “Born again” do not have agreement on the basics of what they believe.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mikemck]

Well now you can say that you have.

Syele is one.

I used to be one.

All my brothers and sister in Christ in my old church are ones. I wish I could personally introduce you to them.

Then I guess I have to ask how you’re defining “fundamentalist”, since OSAS is one of the hallmark doctrines.

But this is the problem with Protestant theology. Even those who would use the same title, “Fundamentalist” or “Born again” do not have agreement on the basics of what they believe.

Really? Name one essential doctrine we disagree on.