Born Again?

[MariaG]

Then I guess I have to ask how you’re defining “fundamentalist”, since OSAS is one of the hallmark doctrines.

Really? Name one essential doctrine we disagree on.

I classify, as did my friends of belonged to the same church, Fundamentalists would include those who are “Bible believing” Christians. Among “bible believing” Christians, there are Baptist, Evangelical, “non-denominational”, Nazarene, Assemby of God to name a few. (Although AoG may be subdivided by some into Pentecostal)

But whether or not one’s definition of “Fundmentalist” is the same, Jan was claiming that those who define themselves “born again” “mostly” believe in OSAS. And that is just not true. In both the AoG and Nazarene members self-identified as “born again” Christians when asked and neither believe in OSAS.

As for what doctrine or “basics” that fundamentlist cannot agree on, OSAS or if one can lose one’s salvation for one

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

Perhaps there is some confusion about what OSAS means compared to what Arminians believe compared to what Catholics believe.

OSAS means that once you are saved, you will NEVER become unsaved. Period.

Under Arminianism, You can be assured that you are saved because the only way to become unsaved is to choose not to be. However you DO have the free will to make that choice. Most Arminians will tell you we are sure we are saved. We believe we can know if we are or not. Arminians are just as likely to say “I am Born Again, Are you?” as a Calvanist would… but it dosn’t mean we believe the same thing.

Catholics: Are you sure you are going to go to heaven if you instantly die of a heart attack directly after you confessed all your sins in a confessional? I think most of you would say yes (If I have theology right.) So in that moment at least you can be sure of your salvation.

All three have assurance at some point… the difference is how assured we can be and for how long.

 

[Syele]

That’s funny, I’ve been a fundamentalist for about fifteen years now and have ministered in or worked with dozens of churches.

I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a fundamentalist who doesn’t believe OSAS.

I know that I’ve never met one.

With all due respect, I think if you questioned some of the ones you know more deeply, you might find they are not really OSAS. Ask questions like, “Is there and unpardonable sin, and can it be committed by a Christian?” “What does Backslidden mean?” “If I become a serial Killer and don’t ask God forgiveness, will I still go to heaven?” You might just be surprised at the answers.

If you only ask “Can you know for sure you are saved?” Or even “can you lose your salvation?” You may well get the same answers from both groups if they don’t go in detail.

Depending on what type of church you attend, these may not be things that are discussed that much.

 

[MariaG]

With all due respect, I think if you questioned some of the ones you know more deeply, you might find they are not really OSAS. Ask questions like, “Is there and unpardonable sin, and can it be committed by a Christian?” “What does Backslidden mean?” “If I become a serial Killer and don’t ask God forgiveness, will I still go to heaven?” You might just be surprised at the answers.

If you only ask “Can you know for sure you are saved?” Or even “can you lose your salvation?” You may well get the same answers from both groups if they don’t go in detail.

Depending on what type of church you attend, these may not be things that are discussed that much.

This is very true. I was in a conversation with a Baptist. When I questioned her on what OSAS meant, she actually meant assurance of salvation, not assured. Of course some could argue that she was not a very good baptist then, but the point is that when one “knows” one is going to heaven, it does not always mean that they believe one cannot be saved at one point in one’s life but then choose to not follow Christ later.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[sara888]

**Within the broad scope of church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common.

Nonetheless, they are often viewed as archrivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over the doctrines (of predestination and salvation.)

Jan**

 

[MariaG]

Perhaps there is some confusion about what OSAS means compared to what Arminians believe compared to what Catholics believe.

OSAS means that once you are saved, you will NEVER become unsaved. Period.

Under Arminianism, You can be assured that you are saved because the only way to become unsaved is to choose not to be. However you DO have the free will to make that choice. Most Arminians will tell you we are sure we are saved. We believe we can know if we are or not. Arminians are just as likely to say “I am Born Again, Are you?” as a Calvanist would… but it dosn’t mean we believe the same thing.

Catholics: Are you sure you are going to go to heaven if you instantly die of a heart attack directly after you confessed all your sins in a confessional? I think most of you would say yes (If I have theology right.) So in that moment at least you can be sure of your salvation.

All three have assurance at some point… the difference is how assured we can be and for how long.

Catholics can have assurance of salvation. One knows if one is in a state of grace or has unconfessed mortal sin on ones soul. One can “know” that even if it has been months since the last confession.

Assurance of Salvation? is a tract from CA Library.

The last paragraph sums up Catholic teaching.

From CA Library Assurance of Salvation
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

I do disagree with this article on what it says about “most” fundamentalists and Evangelicals believe one can do anything once one has been saved though since in my own experience, it is not true that the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists all believe in OSAS.

I believe that even most who do believe in OSAS do not believe one can do anything once saved. One will not break the law of Moses if one is truly saved.

From CA Library Assurance of Salvation
There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: “Have you been saved?” What the question also means is: “Don’t you wish you had the* assurance* of salvation?” Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.

All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.

It could be that I live in an area that is unique? Possibly. But even online here, those who I have met who are converts but came from “fundamental” churches, did not believe in OSAS, and do not live even in the same state I do.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

I believe that even most who do believe in OSAS do not believe one can do anything once saved. One will not break the law of Moses if one is truly saved.

This is true, most Calvinists will think the whole argument about lawlessness is moot because a saved person simply would never live a lawless life. I have seen some Catholics argue with them with “Well what about when they do?” the answer is still “They Don’t.” There is no free will in Calvinism, God directs everything. (Note: last time I said this some Calvinist pointed out that he thought God did allow people free choice for insignificant matters like weather to have cheese pizza or peperoni pizza and that equals Free will).

sara888:

Within the broad scope of church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common.

So do Protestants and Catholics. Shall I argue they are the same as well?

 

[lak611]

The problem is now people are confusing fundamentalism with OSAS. The five fundamentals are as follows:
1)Inerrancy of the Scriptures
2)The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
3)The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God’s grace and human faith
4)The bodily resurrection of Jesus
5)The authenticity of Christ’s miracles (or, alternatively, his premillennial second coming.

One could be Calvinist (and OSAS) or Arminian and believe all of those five fundamentals.

 

[mikemck]

With all due respect, I think if you questioned some of the ones you know more deeply, you might find they are not really OSAS.

With all due respect (this from the same people who called me an “imbecille”) you have no way of knowing what sort of relationship I have with these people.

You forget, as Baptists, we’re very heavy into Bible study and doctrine. These things come up quite a bit.

Ask questions like, “Is there and unpardonable sin, and can it be committed by a Christian?” What does Backslidden mean?" “If I become a serial Killer and don’t ask God forgiveness, will I still go to heaven?” You might just be surprised at the answers.

No, not really. After all of this time, we’ve discussed these things enough that I can pretty much predict exactly what the answers will be.

Depending on what type of church you attend, these may not be things that are discussed that much.

Believe me, we get much deeper into Bible study and doctrine than any Roman Catholic you’ve ever met.

 

[mikemck]

I classify, as did my friends of belonged to the same church, Fundamentalists would include those who are “Bible believing” Christians. Among “bible believing” Christians, there are Baptist, Evangelical, “non-denominational”, Nazarene, Assemby of God to name a few. (Although AoG may be subdivided by some into Pentecostal)

Actually, there are a lot of “Bible believing” people and churches that are not fundamentalist, just as there are Baptists and very many Evangelicals who are not.

But whether or not one’s definition of “Fundmentalist” is the same, Jan was claiming that those who define themselves “born again” “mostly” believe in OSAS.

And she would be correct.

And that is just not true. In both the AoG and Nazarene members self-identified as “born again” Christians when asked and neither believe in OSAS.

Oh, that’s brilliant. Pick a pentecostal church and ask them to speak for fundamentalists. If you’re going to do that, then why not pick Baptists and ask them to speak for Roman Catholics?

As for what doctrine or “basics” that fundamentlist cannot agree on, OSAS or if one can lose one’s salvation for one

That’s not an essential.

Can you or can you not name just one essential that we’re not united on?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

With all due respect (this from the same people who called me an “imbecille”) you have no way of knowing what sort of relationship I have with these people.

You forget, as Baptists, we’re very heavy into Bible study and doctrine. These things come up quite a bit.

No, not really. After all of this time, we’ve discussed these things enough that I can pretty much predict exactly what the answers will be.

Believe me, we get much deeper into Bible study and doctrine than any Roman Catholic you’ve ever met.

Sorry, I missed that you are Baptist. I have never met a Baptist that was not Calvinist and therefore, OSAS. Your other post about being there 15 years left me with the impression that they were from different denominations. I’m sorry to have misunderstood you. I wasn’t being sarcastic about the respectful part.

Also, I’m not Roman Catholic.

 

[sara888]

Actually, there are a lot of “Bible believing” people and churches that are not fundamentalist, just as there are Baptists and very many Evangelicals who are not.

And she would be correct.

Oh, that’s brilliant. Pick a pentecostal church and ask them to speak for fundamentalists. If you’re going to do that, then why not pick Baptists and ask them to speak for Roman Catholics?

That’s not an essential.

Can you or can you not name just one essential that we’re not united on?

God Bless,
Maria

**
Thank you Mike, !its good to see some intelligence with Christian doctrine on these boards… Well said…!

Jan**

 

[rbarcia]

**
Thank you Mike, !its good to see some intelligence** with Christian doctrine on these boards… Well said…!

Jan

With this statement, you are stating others have no intelligence. You in other post imply you keep the law, so it surprises me to hear comments like this from you Jan.

**
Matthew 23:12

12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

**

 

[Syele]

That’s not an essential.

Can you or can you not name just one essential that we’re not united on?

Depends on what you consider “essential”. I think Predestination is pretty essential since it affects the very nature of of God. It is a very different sort of God who allows people to chose for themselves than one who decides everything in advance. I think it’s interesting that you would want Baptists to speak for all “Born Agains” what leads you to believe they are the majority?

 

[MariaG]

Actually, there are a lot of “Bible believing” people and churches that are not fundamentalist, just as there are Baptists and very many Evangelicals who are not.

You can certainly choose to disagree with the definition. And then offer your own.

As I pointed out previously, one of the problems with Protestant churches is that even those who use titles like born again or fundamental do not neccessarily have a cohesive doctrine.

And she would be correct.

Again, I disagree. My former church members disagree. And Sylve a current born again Protestant disagrees. There are many who are “born again” christians who do not believe in OSAS.

Oh, that’s brilliant. Pick a pentecostal church and ask them to speak for fundamentalists. If you’re going to do that, then why not pick Baptists and ask them to speak for Roman Catholics?

Nazarene is not pentecostal. And I do believe I said that AoG could be subdivided into pentecostal.

My definition of fundamental and born again are essentially the same. You asked for my definition, I gave it to you.

I will be happy to stick with my original contention and abandon any more argument of what “fundamental” means if that will help this be less argumentative. People who are “born again” and identify themselves in this manner, like Assembly of God, Nazarene, Evangelical, church of Christ, nondenominational, many of them do not believe in OSAS.

I do however find the “tone” of this remark to be rather aggressively sarcastic. Forgive me if I am misreading this tone and that is not your intent. And I pray we can move past this sort of dialogue as it frequently can deteriorate into uncharitableness, something I do not believe either of us would care to participate in.

That’s not an essential.

Can you or can you not name just one essential that we’re not united on?

Then I suppose this would need to be in another thread of its own, what is an essential and non-essential doctrine as this is not the scope of this thread. I believe it would be essential to define whether or not one believes that after one has been saved whether or not one can then choose to reject God and go to hell, but as I said, that would need to be another thread as this is not in the scope of “born again”.

The original claim we were arguing against is that bible believing Christians who could be classified as “born again” or self identify as born again are OSAS. As pointed out by Sylve and I, this claim is not true for MANY. There are many who are “born again” christians who believe one can be saved at one time but “backslide” and a former Christian can find themselves in hell. Conversely, it has been acknowledged that some are “born again” and OSAS.

As well as the discussion has been of assured salvation and assurance of salvation. Assured Salvation would be another way to say OSAS. Assurance of salvation is not. One can believe that they Know they are going to heaven but also believe it is possible to lose ones salvation.

So, the issue that was being discussed in which I, due to my definition of fundamental, used fundamental for “born again”, is whether or not all or even many who are “born again” Christians believe in OSAS. Respectfully, Sylve a born again Protestant and, I, a born again Catholic revert disagree with you. As do the many who attend the Churches we go(went) to who call themselves born again.

There are many who are not OSAS who are “born again” chritsians and would identify themselves in this manner who completely disagree with the doctrine of OSAS, as well as teach a holiness doctrine.

It has also been presented by us that while OSAS would certainly teach that one is no longer under the law of Moses, most do not believe you can be saved and go out and murder someone, that if one who claimed to be saved did that, they were never saved to begin with it has been claimed that both OSAS and born again teach a lawlessness. While I, in fact, know that this is completely wrong about many of the born again crowd some of whom in fact teach a “holiness” doctrine, I was arguing that this is a gross characterization of OSAS and few (if any?) believe that a saved person can commit murder and still go to heaven.

Do you in fact believe that one can go out and commit murder if one is saved? That a saved person can act in this lawless manner and still go to heaven? Or do you disagree with the claim that Lawlessness is taught by OSAS Christians?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

**

Thank you Mike, !its good to see some intelligence with Christian doctrine on these boards… Well said…!

Jan
**

I am sorry you feel you need to respond in this kind of uncharitable and sarcastic manner.

 

[mikemck]

Depends on what you consider “essential”. I think Predestination is pretty essential since it affects the very nature of of God.

No, it doesn’t affect the nature of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it list predestination among the essentials.

I think it’s interesting that you would want Baptists to speak for all “Born Agains” what leads you to believe they are the majority?

And I think it’s interesting that you would claim that I’ve said such a thing when anybody with any sense can go back and read my posts to see that I never have.

 

[MariaG]

But whether or not one’s definition of “Fundmentalist” is the same, Jan was claiming that those who define themselves “born again” “mostly” believe in OSAS. And that is just not true. In both the AoG and Nazarene members self-identified as “born again” Christians when asked and neither believe in OSAS.

Maria

In direct reply to my contention that Jan is claiming that MOST born again Christians also believe in OSAS Mike said the following.

And she would be correct.

I think it’s interesting that you would want Baptists to speak for all “Born Agains” what leads you to believe they are the majority?

And I think it’s interesting that you would claim that I’ve said such a thing when anybody with any sense can go back and read my posts to see that I never have.

Just in case anyone with sense wants to go back and read what was said

Ah well, life goes on and so do the forums.

God bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

No, it doesn’t affect the nature of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it list predestination among the essentials.

Where in the Bible is this list of “essentials” labeled as such?

And I think it’s interesting that you would claim that I’ve said such a thing when anybody with any sense can go back and read my posts to see that I never have.

  			Originally Posted by **mikemck** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1591160#post1591160) 				
  		*That's funny, I've been a fundamentalist for about fifteen years now and have ministered in or worked with dozens of churches.

I think you’d be very hard pressed to find a fundamentalist who doesn’t believe OSAS.

I know that I’ve never met one.*

  			Originally Posted by **mikemck**

With all due respect (this from the same people who called me an “imbecille”) you have no way of knowing what sort of relationship I have with these people.

You forget, as Baptists, we’re very heavy into Bible study and doctrine. These things come up quite a bit.

First you said you knew that there aren’t hardly any fundamentalists that don’t believe in OSAS based on your experience of 15 years and Dozens of churches. Then you said all those churches were Baptists. Hardly a massive and diverse sampling. And now you claim I have no sense. Is such rudeness really necessary? I have no idea who called you an “imbecille”, but I certianly didn’t and I don’t see why you take it out on me.

 

[Syele]

Just in case anyone with sense wants to go back and read what was said

Ah well, life goes on and so do the forums.

God bless,
Maria

heh, thanks Maria, You posted while I was formulating my answer.