Born Fundamentalists, Born again Catholics.. please answer me this!

[carol_marie]

Jesus would never call me to a church that didn’t uphold the Bible because as you said, it’s His Word.

But, maybe you are right about me and I will never make a good Catholic. I recognize that I trust in the Bible and believe it will lead me to Jesus. I think Catholics trust not in the Bible but in their Church to lead them to Jesus? And I’m willing to trust the Church - don’t get me wrong. I’m willing to allow the Church to explain the Bible to me, and I’m told that Tradition mirrors the Scriptures so I thought I’d be OK. I can’t disregard the Bible though. Never.

 

[pnewton]

carol marie:

I can’t disregard the Bible though. Never.

Nor should you have to. The idea of God calling you to disregard his word is not realistic. I think you have a very sound respect for the scripture and as solid a Catholic perspective as anyone here. If I had to disengage my brain to become catholic I never would have made it. I know scepticism when I see it and that is what we are seeing in some of these more modernistic theories.

One can worship the Bible, just like one can worship Mary, in excess of what is proper. Just because you cling to the scripture with such fervor does you no harm and can do a great deal of good. Just like Mary, it will always bring us closer to Jesus.

 

[patricius]

Can you believe that the Bible is literally accurate and be a good Catholic? Absolutely.

Can you say that you’ll leave the Church if it pronounces some parts of the Old Testament to not be historical narratives? No.

But it’s my opinion that the Church won’t and shouldn’t ever do something like that.

By the same token, I think the Church would be in contradiction to Dei Verbum if it proclaimed the Gospels to not be historically true. So that would, in fact, be valid grounds for disbelieving Catholicism.

Of course, this is only my best personal understanding of Church teaching.

 

[Exporter]

Carol Marie,

You are doing O.K. Much advice has been given, most is good.
I do understand your delimma. But when someone, a long-time Catholic tells you something about Biblical things, realise that you are not hearing exactly what they are saying. What you hear is colored by your Protestant background.

When I read some of the above posts, I thought…can these people be Roman Catholic? Some of the stories were the first time for me, and I am 73. Use your Bible. Believe what it says.

The Catholic Church ( including it’s Theology and Doctrines) is built on three legs. A Three-legged stool is stable, where a two-legged stool is not stable. The three legs are ; Tradition, The Magisterium and the Bible. All three are the foundation of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, it is written that the Magisterium cannot conflict with Scripture! When you hear wild stories, take them as wild stories.

Matt16:18. Jesus says,“You are Peter the Rock and I will build my Church on this Rock”. Protestants say Jesus didnt mean that. They say He was talking about a confession. Now that is an example of interpretation that the Catholic Church has spoken about. Greek Orthodox thinks it means something different than do Roman Catholics. I dont pay attention to wild stories invented in the last 40 years! You dont have to either.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

carol marie:

I would respond the same. I don’t mean to say the Catholic Church “added” things… only that I would be adding to MY faith which already included the Bible, the Trinity, etc. I recognized that the Catholic Church perhaps had the “fullness of truth” so I am more than willing to add what I’m missing. I am however reluctant to “subtract” from my faith which I would be doing if I must believe that the Bible isn’t true, reliable, accurate and historical.

Bottom line, I’m OK with YOU not believing in Adam & Eve or the Historical accuracy of the Gospels or even the “talking donkey” - suit yourself, but don’t tell ME not to believe those things. Because I can either believe EVERYTHING in the Bible, just as I always have AND be Catholic or I can believe everything in the Bible and not be Catholic. I’m not willing to deny the Bible - not the beginning, not the middle, certainly not the Gospels. I intended to be a Bible thumping Catholic and if that’s a problem then the Catholic Church is obviously not for me.

No one is telling you not to believe the Bible - equally, it would be a pity if one were to make needless difficulties for oneself by taking what is not history, as though it were history.​

Not everything said in the Bible is an assertion of fact, merely because it is in the Bible; the words “there is no God” appear in the Bible, twice, in Psalms 14 & 53 (which are identical) - that does not make them true. That is not their function. Their function is to represent the thinking of “the fool” - their presence in the Bible is not a guarantee that they are inspired in the same way as “God is love”. The words of these quotations are “written for our learning”; that does not mean they have the same theological value, and it does not mean they both represent God’s message to us in the same way.

Many lies are recorded in Scripture, and blasphemies, & slanders, and all sorts of crimes - that does not mean that we can echo Our Lord’s critics, and call Him “Beelzebub”. In that sense, not “everything” said of him in Scripture is true. Because some of Scripture shows what His critics thought of Him. So one cannot “believe everything in the Bible” - not if one is a Christian or a Jew. We have to take blasphemies against Our Lord as blasphemies against Our Lord - not as true statements about Him. And both sets of words form part of Scripture - it does not in the least follow that they are therefore both equally true; nor that they function in the same way.

Some things are in the Bible as criticisms of Christ - others are in it as praise of him. Philippians 2.5-8 is as much a part of Scripture as the unintentional “prophecy” of Caiaphas in John 11; the two passages have different functions. And for much of the Bible, of course, nothing is said of Christ at all. The Gospels are more central to the revelation of God than Isaiah, and Isaiah is more central than Proverbs: some books and passages are more valuable than others. The age of Jared when he begot Enoch, is scarcely as important as the accounts of the Passion and Resurrection. The murder of Sisera is hardly as significant as the call of Isaiah to prophesy. So not everything in the Bible is of the same value or significance ##

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

carol marie:

When I decided to make the jump from my Fundamentalist background to the Catholic Church I knew I would be “adding” things to my faith… like Mary, the Saints, the Real Presence etc. but I mistakenly assumed that I would be able to take all I knew about the Bible WITH ME! I mistakenly believed that Catholics believed the Bible to be true. I was wrong. Over & over again I’m told that various parts of the Bible AREN’T historical - didn’t happen, just made up “stories.” First Genesis, and now the Gospels. I’m asking all of you former Bible believing Protestants… how were you able to disregard the truth of the Bible? How are you able to say that many parts of it didn’t happen actually happen - that it’s mostly a collection of literary forms? I’m not able to do that.

I have been praying for discernment. Please Lord… don’t let me be led astray. I’m begining to feel like the frog in the pot. (You know… if it’s throw into the boiling water it was jump out but if it’s placed in the water & the temp. is slowly turned up it doesn’t jump out but it dies nonetheless.) Little red flags have been thrown up all along and I’ve pushed them aside. I think God is using this as my giant wake up call. I just can’t accept that the Bible isn’t true… that it’s a collection of prevaling myths and literary forms. How could all of you?

Much of what you have posted about the Catholic Church and the Bible is simply not the teaching of the Catholic Church. If you are in an RCIA process find another one!

 

[WBB]

Br. Rich SFO:

Much of what you have posted about the Catholic Church and the Bible is simply not the teaching of the Catholic Church. If you are in an RCIA process find another one!

AMEN!

Carol Marie, bless your soul! I will pray for you! I agree with the recommendation of *Dei Verbum, *but I recently finished reading a book called *Making Senses Out of Scripture *by Mark Shea. It was excellent in helping me see that Jesus is the key to the ENTIRE bible. It is very easy to read and it is written by a former Evangelical Protestant, so it might be more geared for you since you are converting.

Here is a link for the book at amazon.com. It is only $12.74 and worth much more if you ask me…

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964261065/qid=1099628949/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-1122187-5699312

 

[jeffreedy789]

‘Jesus would never call me to a church…’

the question, though, isn’t what Jesus WOULD call you to. the question is what Jesus IS calling you to. are you seeking His will in this, or coming up with reasons why He’s not calling?

 

[dcdurel]

carol marie:

I just can’t accept that the Bible isn’t true… that it’s a collection of prevaling myths and literary forms. How could all of you?

 Where does the Church teach that the bible isn't true, or that it is a collection of prevaling myths?

You are confusing the opinions of Catholics with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
You forget that all heresies in the history of Christianity were started by “Catholic” theologians and “Catholic” scripture scholars. Luther, Calvin, Arian, etc. were all Catholics. The late Raymond Brown, who was extemely popular in Catholic Seminaries 5 to 20 years ago taught many, many, errors. He resurrected the Nestorian heresy and denied that the bible was inerrant, and promoted private interpretation as superior to Church teaching authority. There has never, never, never been an infallible Catholic theologian or scripture scholar. Thus, Catholic theologians and scripture scholars are totally, and absolutely untrustworthy, especially those who reject the authority of the Pope. Even the saints and doctors of the Church were not infalliible, but at least the recognized this fact and said they submitted everything they wrote to the judgement of the Church.
On the other hand, no Pope has ever taught error when teaching as the Pope, when teaching all Christians on things pertaining to faith or morals. In other words, the Pope’s have always been infallible when teaching for the whole Church. That is because Jesus gave teaching authority to the office of Peter and the apostles ALONE. Jesus gave no teaching authority to scripture scholars, theologians, etc. And Jesus made the teaching authority of Peter above all the other apostles.
Thus, if you want to know what the Church teaches about the bible, the last place you want to is Catholic scripture scholars or theologians, priests, bishops, etc. NONE are infallible when not in union with the Pope.

 

[dcdurel]

Fortunately you can find what the Church teaches on the bible from the Popes encyclicals and from the Vatican II document “Dei Verbum” also known as the “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation” Of course it restates Church dogma that the Holy Spirit can’t make errors, then it states :
“everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit”
The Popes encyclicals which over and over state the innerrancy of scripture are the following.
Providentissimus Deus," by Pope Leo XIII
This one is excellent, and fairly easy to understand, because it was the first one to address the false teachings that bible taught error. And the Church does teach the bible literally. He states we must interpret the bible literally except when unless it is impossible to do so. He teaches infallibly:
“not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires”.
The others get a little harder, because they assume the teachings of the first one and build up upon it.
They are:
SPIRITUS PARACLITUS , 1920
PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS 1907
DIVINO AFFLANTE SPIRITU 1943
HUMANI GENERIS 1950
All the teachings by the Popes clearly stated or defined in them are infallible.
Also the teachings of the
Pontifical Biblical Commission between 1905-1915
are infallible, because Pope Pius X required that all Catholics accept its decisions in two letters written by him.
This is very good for refuting liberal errors. It also re-affirms the constant Church teaching the the books of the bible were written by the authors attributed to them. In other words, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the Gospels attrributed to them, and in that order.
And the new Catechism has some teachings on bible interpretation.

         The reason Jesus was so emphatic on the authority of Peter, was because He knew sinful man would constantly try to reject His teachings.  Our faith is in Jesus, not scripture scholars who all taught error. 
   I have learned from over 30 years of trying to learn the truth  within the Catholic Church, that FIRST one must find out what the Popes teach in their official  writings or teachings, or  what they approve of, (such as General Church councils like the Council of Trent, Vatican I, Vatican II, the Roman Catechism, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, etc)   Do not waste time on anyone else. Do not trust anyone else, even the old Catholic Encyclopedia has many errors. After learning them, then  to some extent you can read those who are faithful to Church teachings, such as Father William Most who wrote the book defending the inerrancy of scripture "Free From All Error"

 

[Steve_Andersen]

carol marie:

… I just can’t accept that the Bible isn’t true… that it’s a collection of prevaling myths and literary forms. How could all of you?

As someone far wiser than me once asked…What is truth?

There is truth and there is Truth.

God created the universe and everything in it, that is True. Whether he did it in seven days or 15 billion years is frankly immaterial.

Christ taught in parables…why couldn’t his Father? Would that make it any less True?

No disrespect, and in all charity but I wonder sometimes at the literalist who are so wrapped up in each and every comma in the text that they miss the forest for the trees.

 

[pnewton]

Steve Andersen:

As someone far wiser than me once asked…What is truth?

I wonder sometimes at the literalist who are so wrapped up in each and every comma in the text that they miss the forest for the trees.

Taking the Bible literally does not mean that we hold to every comma. In any interpretation syntax, context and culture must be evaluated. Also, since the Bible is a collection and not a single book, each must be looked at individually as to how literally it should be taken. I just do not discount miracles. If the gospel says Jesus fed 5000 through 5 loaves and 2 fish, then I will not doubt the plain meaning based on conjecture.

By the way, I smiled when I saw the quote above, accredited to that great wise man, Pontius Pilate.

 

[patricius]

In the original languages, the Bible didn’t have any commas at all, or punctuation of any sort, did it?

 

[carol_marie]

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread, I was confusing the Official Teachings of the Catholic Church with views held by “some” Cathoics. When I read posts where very intelligent sounding people claim that the Bible is full of inaccuracies and copies the literary styles of the prevailing “myths” of the day and that “very little, if any of the Gospel accounts are historical” I begin to freak out. I now see that I can trust almost nothing except what the Chruch itself, and I suppose that would mean the Pope ONLY writes? As another poster stated, I have no idea if a particular Priest or Bishop or Theologian is in union with the Pope so I suppose I have to take everything that’s said, with the exception of the Pope with a grain of salt?

The Catholic Church claims it is unified and that all other Protestant denom. are not but how can you say that you are unified when you can’t trust the Priests or the Bishops? Honestly, you aren’t any different than the rest… you are every bit as splintered as the 30,000 or more other Christian Churches. It’s very sad and obviously Jesus knew this would happen since that was that last thing he prayed for before going back to heaven.

 

[pnewton]

patricius:

In the original languages, the Bible didn’t have any commas at all, or punctuation of any sort, did it?

True. Who but Jimmy Akin actual reads in the real original? (no commas, spaces or breaks)

 

[MParedon]

carol marie:

The Catholic Church claims it is unified and that all other Protestant denom. are not but how can you say that you are unified when you can’t trust the Priests or the Bishops? Honestly, you aren’t any different than the rest… you are every bit as splintered as the 30,000 or more other Christian Churches. It’s very sad and obviously Jesus knew this would happen since that was that last thing he prayed for before going back to heaven.

Ahh, but that is the thing I love about the Catholic Church, there may be many people who aren’t in union with the Teachings, but they can’t change the Teachings. I think that is the big difference between the splintering of opinions with Catholics and the splintering of opinions with non-Catholics.

 

[dcdurel]

carol marie:

The Catholic Church claims it is unified and that all other Protestant denom. are not but how can you say that you are unified when you can’t trust the Priests or the Bishops? Honestly, you aren’t any different than the rest… you are every bit as splintered as the 30,000 or more other Christian Churches. It’s very sad and obviously Jesus knew this would happen since that was that last thing he prayed for before going back to heaven.

   Jesus never said to trust the Priests or Bishops.  He never said we have to believe what the Priests or Bishops taught, and certainly never what theologians or scripture scholars taught. .

He estabished a Church upon Peter and the apostles and gave them alone the authority to teach and preach. And to Peter alone He gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven, which is the Church, To Peter alone He prayed that his faith would not fail. To Peter alone He said “feed my sheep”. Peter and apostles in turn handed down that authority to their successors, the Pope and the bishops. And the Church has always, always taught that the Pope is first in authority and everyone must agree with what the Popes teach and the the Popes and the whole Church in their councils have taught that the Popes are infallible and so are the bishops only when they teach in union with the Pope. Nobody else is infallible in their teaching. Furthermore, the Pope is not infallible in matters of governing. He could appoint as bishop someone who is a total heretic, as the Popes did during the Arian heresy. The Popes are only infallible when they teach for the whole Church, and that is quite often. Jesus chose one of the worst apostles and one of the most ignorant apostles, Peter, to show that the infallible teaching power of the Catholic Church does not rest on the intelligence of man, nor does it rest on the holiness of man, but it rests on the Divine power of God Himself. Most Catholics are ignorant and they believe that a multitude of opinions are permissible within the Catholic Church regarding basic teachings. These false ideas come from bad theologians, scripture scholars, educators, etc.
Unfortunately, some Catholics will believe anything. Jesus didn’t call us sheep for nothing. Sheep are not known for high intelligence. The Church can only teach what God has revealed, and what follows from what God has revealed. And ONLY the Pope and those few bishops in union with the Pope are infallible and can be trusted when it comes to Church teaching. The Popes bring unity to the Church. Once
a Catholic publically rejects the teachings of the Popes, he is no longer a full member of the Church. Thus, Catholics who are full members of the Church are unified, because they all accept the teachings of the Church. We must believe Jesus when He said to listen to His Church. And we must believe His Church when it teaches that ONLY the Pope and those few bishops in union with the Pope can teach without error. Individual bishops apart from the Pope, scripture scholars, theologians, saints, doctors of the Church, priests, sisters, nuns and you and I are not infallible and cannot be fully trusted when it comes to Church teaching.

 

[carol_marie]

Dcudrel,
But this is a problem… if only the Pope and the Bishops in union with the Pope can be trusted to teach The Truth how am I supposed to be fed? (And please, I don’t mean the Eucharist) How am I supposed to be taught? I don’t have access to the Pope every Sunday… my option is the local Catholic Church and I have no IDEA if my Priests are in union with the Pope or way off in left field thinking the Bible is a bunch of myths etc. How am I supposed to trust my children to a church that can’t even control what the Priests & Wayward Bishops are dishing out? See, at least as a Sounthern Baptist I could KNOW what my Pastor believes… it’s all there in the statement of faith and if he were to deviate even slightly the elders would pitch a fit and he’d be ousted. I know if I’m a member of a Southern Baptist Church I’m going to be learning Southern Baptist Theology - nothing more, nothing less. Granted, you could argue what’s the benefit in learning Sounthern Baptist Theology if it’s not the Truth (no Eucharist etc.) but what gets me is I was interested in the Catholic Church because I mistakenly thought it was unified - not broken in thousand pieces like the Protestant faiths. But now I’ve come to find out that so isn’t the case. Read these forums for a few days and you’ll see how terribly divided the Church truly is… (just look at how many voted for pro-abort Kerry (almost half) and tell me it’s a united Church?) And yet over & over again I’m told that if someone rejects the official Catholic Teaching they aren’t Catholic. Why aren’t they given the boot? Why allow wayward teachers, Priests, Bishops, etc. to remain in their positions? Sorry to ramble… this original post was aimed at converts… if you’ve been Catholic your entire life my frustration probably goes right over your head? As a possible convert I guess I’m bummed that the AWESOME church I read about in the apologetic books takes a magnifying glass to actually find. Weeding out all the conflicting opinions has me worn out.

 

[LetsObeyChrist]

carol marie:

When I decided to make the jump from my Fundamentalist background to the Catholic Church I knew I would be “adding” things to my faith… like Mary, the Saints, the Real Presence etc. but I mistakenly assumed that I would be able to take all I knew about the Bible WITH ME! I mistakenly believed that Catholics believed the Bible to be true. I was wrong. Over & over again I’m told that various parts of the Bible AREN’T historical - didn’t happen, just made up “stories.” First Genesis, and now the Gospels. I’m asking all of you former Bible believing Protestants… how were you able to disregard the truth of the Bible? How are you able to say that many parts of it didn’t happen actually happen - that it’s mostly a collection of literary forms? I’m not able to do that.

I have been praying for discernment. Please Lord… don’t let me be led astray. I’m begining to feel like the frog in the pot. (You know… if it’s throw into the boiling water it was jump out but if it’s placed in the water & the temp. is slowly turned up it doesn’t jump out but it dies nonetheless.) Little red flags have been thrown up all along and I’ve pushed them aside. I think God is using this as my giant wake up call. I just can’t accept that the Bible isn’t true… that it’s a collection of prevaling myths and literary forms. How could all of you?

KJV 1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not
the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

You know the truth in your heart of hearts, the Spirit of God put it there. You instinctively discern “no lie is of the truth.”

Logically it is impossible those who denigrate God’s Word be His representative on earth, His teaching authority.

KJV Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God *is *quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and *is *a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Choose:

KJV Exodus 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who *is *on the LORD’S side? *let him come *unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

**Malachi 3:16-17 **16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

**Isaiah 8:20****To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, *it is *because *there is *no light in them. **

 

[LetsObeyChrist]

carol marie:
When I decided to make the jump from my Fundamentalist background to the Catholic Church I knew I would be “adding” things to my faith… like Mary, the Saints, the Real Presence etc. but I mistakenly assumed that I would be able to take all I knew about the Bible WITH ME! I mistakenly believed that Catholics believed the Bible to be true. I was wrong. Over & over again I’m told that various parts of the Bible AREN’T historical - didn’t happen, just made up “stories.” First Genesis, and now the Gospels. I’m asking all of you former Bible believing Protestants… how were you able to disregard the truth of the Bible? How are you able to say that many parts of it didn’t happen actually happen - that it’s mostly a collection of literary forms? I’m not able to do that.

I have been praying for discernment. Please Lord… don’t let me be led astray. I’m begining to feel like the frog in the pot. (You know… if it’s throw into the boiling water it was jump out but if it’s placed in the water & the temp. is slowly turned up it doesn’t jump out but it dies nonetheless.) Little red flags have been thrown up all along and I’ve pushed them aside. I think God is using this as my giant wake up call. I just can’t accept that the Bible isn’t true… that it’s a collection of prevaling myths and literary forms. How could all of you?

KJV 1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

You know the truth in your heart of hearts, the Spirit of God put it there. You instinctively discern “no lie is of the truth.”

Logically it is impossible those who denigrate God’s Word be His representative on earth, His teaching authority.

God’s Word, His Son and His Bible are…

**1 Peter 2:8 **8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, *even to them *which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

It separates the wheat from the chaff:

KJV Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God *is *quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and *is *a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

**Jeremiah 23:28-29 **28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What *is *the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29 *Is *not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer *that *breaketh the rock in pieces?

Get on board for the big win:

KJV Exodus 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who *is *on the LORD’S side? *let him come *unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

**Malachi 3:16-17 **16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

KJV 1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it…

**Isaiah 8:20 **To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, *it is *****because *there is *no light in them.