Both body and blood in the host?

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FabiusMaximus

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I see that a majority of Catholics receive only the bread/host when receiving Communion. I know the Church believes that both the body and blood are really present. But why? Wouldn’t it be better to receive both species at all times, like the Orthodox do (and all Protestants, for that matter)?

How does the Catholic Church prove that both the body and blood of Christ are present in both species of Communion?

Is there a biblical justification?

Also, why does the Church believe in the ‘age of reason’ for Communion? Isn’t that technically a departure from the Early Church? Just curious.

Regards,
 
Does it make sense that all of Christ is not in the individual elements? That is, are we only getting part of Jesus in the host and the rest of him in the precious blood? What about his soul and divinity? Which part are they in? If we get a little piece of host, are we getting less of Jesus than if we get a big piece?

No, all of Christ is in each particle of host, and all of Christ is in each drop of the precious blood. We may choose to receive both, but we are not getting more of Jesus or a completeness of Jesus that is not in the individual elements. That is why many are content receiving only the host - they trust that they are receiving all of Jesus, and so they are.

Why do you think someone without full use of reason should need communion if they have been baptized?
 
I see that a majority of Catholics receive only the bread/host when receiving Communion. I know the Church believes that both the body and blood are really present. But why? Wouldn’t it be better to receive both species at all times, like the Orthodox do (and all Protestants, for that matter)?

How does the Catholic Church prove that both the body and blood of Christ are present in both species of Communion?

Is there a biblical justification?

Also, why does the Church believe in the ‘age of reason’ for Communion? Isn’t that technically a departure from the Early Church? Just curious.

Regards,
Many times one is ill when having communion, so in the interest of other’s health, I myself have refrained from receiving the wine.

Im sure the catechism will say something and someone will quote it about it being in both species.

For the Eucharist in general John 6:52- 65 is used to show that Jesus mean that his flesh is truly food. Not just a representation.

There is an age of reason, one must be baptised, but then also reach an age determined by the diocese.
 
Actually, it’s really very humane, and a sign of the kindness and generosity of God.

Think about it: there are some people who are allergic to wheat (celiac disease), and some who can’t consume alcohol. If the Body and Blood must be consumed under both species at all times, when would these people ever be able to partake?

Since the complete Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is present in either the consecrated bread OR the consecrated wine, they may partake of one or the other without missing out on receiving Christ. 🙂

(And FWIW, in the Eastern Churches, provision is made for people to receive under only one species as well, under extraordinary circumstances.)
 
I see that a majority of Catholics receive only the bread/host when receiving Communion. I know the Church believes that both the body and blood are really present. But why? Wouldn’t it be better to receive both species at all times, like the Orthodox do (and all Protestants, for that matter)?
Well, Protestants sadly do not receive the Holy Sacrament, because only ordained priests in apostolic succession to St. Peter can effect transubstantiation.
 
Way back when, when wooly mammoths roamed the earth and I attended Catholic school, I was told by Sr. St. Anthony, that great theologian (and if you were one of her pupils and didn’t believe that, heaven help you!) that the body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is truly present in each of the consecrated species and every fragment thereof. I know this was true because she caught me chewing gum and made me write this out a hundred times in reparation for my “sin” of chewing gum in class! She was fond of making us write articles of the faith out a hundred times for our petty crimes, and later on, I would find out that all of these were validated in the catechism of the Church. And this was way, way before it was common to have both species available for reception at Mass.

I’m sure someplace in my brand-new Catechism of the Catholic Church that I’ve just barely started to read, having just picked it up on Wednesday, that Sister’s explanation is borne out. Matter of fact, I will check it out, and have the reference when I get the daily subscription post to this thread.
 
I’m sure someplace in my brand-new Catechism of the Catholic Church that I’ve just barely started to read, having just picked it up on Wednesday, that Sister’s explanation is borne out. Matter of fact, I will check it out, and have the reference when I get the daily subscription post to this thread.
Sister was right.

From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
 
Many times one is ill when having communion, so in the interest of other’s health, I myself have refrained from receiving the wine.

Im sure the catechism will say something and someone will quote it about it being in both species.

For the Eucharist in general John 6:52- 65 is used to show that Jesus mean that his flesh is truly food. Not just a representation.

There is an age of reason, one must be baptised, but then also reach an age determined by the diocese.
The Lutheran Church at least the LC-MS does not believe in concomitance. We take Christ at His Word when He said when He took the bread and said " This is My Body…, and He took the cup and He said " This is My Blood,:signofcross:
 
Many times one is ill when having communion, so in the interest of other’s health, I myself have refrained from receiving the wine.

Im sure the catechism will say something and someone will quote it about it being in both species.

For the Eucharist in general John 6:52- 65 is used to show that Jesus mean that his flesh is truly food. Not just a representation.

There is an age of reason, one must be baptised, but then also reach an age determined by the diocese.
The thing is though, when Jesus speaks during the Last Supper, it doesn’t sound like he is saying both elements are there. He lifts the bread, stating ‘this is my body,’ and then lifts the cup and says ‘this is my blood.’ Doesn’t that in itself state clearly that not both elements are there at the same time in the bread alone or in the wine alone?

Also, I do believe in an age of reason, personally, but the Orthodox, for example, immediately confer Communion upon baptism. How did the Catholic Church justify changing this practice?
 
The Lutheran Church at least the LC-MS does not believe in concomitance. We take Christ at His Word when He said when He took the bread and said " This is My Body…, and He took the cup and He said " This is My Blood,:signofcross:
This is Apostolic teaching…

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. ***Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207 ***

Peace, Carlan
 
This is Apostolic teaching…

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. ***Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.207 ***

Peace, Carlan
OK but biblical evidence and/or comments from the Church Fathers on this?
 
my parish does not offer the wine since it would require my parish to have more acolytes or deacons or even add EMHCs. Since everything is present in the Body (The Host) it is NOT absolutely necessary to receive both species. I did attend a parish once for Mass where the priest dipped the host in the wine and everyone of age received that way. I thought it was a unique way of receiving both species and it didn’t require extra people to distribute the precious body AND blood.
 
my parish does not offer the wine since it would require my parish to have more acolytes or deacons or even add EMHCs. Since everything is present in the Body (The Host) it is NOT absolutely necessary to receive both species. I did attend a parish once for Mass where the priest dipped the host in the wine and everyone of age received that way. I thought it was a unique way of receiving both species and it didn’t require extra people to distribute the precious body AND blood.
I like intinction. At my old Evangelical church nearby that’s how we did communion. I was always used to the small cups and bread and all of us taking in unison. But I like the intinction better, it allows one to have a brief few seconds of solemn reflection.

But again, I don’t see why the host has both the body and blood?
 
OK but biblical evidence and/or comments from the Church Fathers on this?
FabiusMaximus,

Morning. You asked for these references. I am going to try my best to type this out. As well as the relevant De Fide doctrines.

** The Body and the Blood of Christ together with His Soul and His Divinity and therefore the Whole Christ are truly present in the Eucharist [De Fide]**

The body of Christ is present under the form of bread and the blood of Christ under the form of the wine ex vi verborum, that is, by the power of the words of consecration. Per concomitantiam [by concomitance], that is on account of the real connection between the body and the blood of Christ, His blood and His soul are also present with the body of Christ under the form of bread, as He is a living body. [Roman 6:9] [Concomitantia naturalis], and on the ground of the Hypostatic Union His Divinity is also present [concomitantia supernaturalis.] Similarly, under the form of win besides His blood Christ’s body and soul and Divnity are also present by concomitance.

In the Eucharistic promissory speech we find the words: “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood” [John 6:54-56] parallel to the words: “He that eateth me” [vs. 57], that is, the Whole Person of Christ . Therefore the whole Christ is present with the flesh and blood of Christ. [1st Cor. 11:27]

** The Whole Christ is present under each of the two Species. [De Fide]**

In the dogam of the totality of the Real Presence it is implicitly stated that the Whole Chist is present under EACH OF THE TWO SPECIES INDIVIDUALLY. The Council of Constance raised this proposition to a dogma, in opposition to the Hussites, who demanded Communio under both forms.

This dogma is the legal basis of the usage of communion under one form. It is true that up to the 13th century Communion under the double form was the regular one, but Communion under one form was known even in antiquity, in the Communion of children, in Communion received at home, in Communion of the sick.
This preceeding was taken from the book Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott.

The next is taken from a Tour of the Summa by Msgr. Paul J. Glenn
  1. In the Holy Eucharist, Christ is present whole and entire [Body, Blood, soul, and Godhead or divnity] under the appearances or accidentals of bread and wine. The words of Consecration bring the living Christ, God and man, truly present. The words, “This is My Body,” bring Christ’s Body truly present, and the Godhead which assumed this body. The words, “This is myh Blood,” bring Christ’s Blood truly present. THIS IS CHRIST’S LIVING BLOOD; therefore IT IS IN ITS BODY, WITH THE SOUL, AND THE DIVINITY OR GODHEAD WHICH ASSUMED THIS BLOOD. THUS THE WHOLE CHRIST IS PRESENT UNDER THE APPEAREANCES OF BREAD, AND THE WHOLE CHRIST IS PRESENT UNDER THE APPEARANCES OF WINE, AND THE WHOLE CHRIST IS PRESENT UNDER BOTH APPEARANCES TOGETHER. For, if two things are really united, wherever one is the other must be. Thus, by the words, “this is my Body”, and be the necessity of concomitance, the Blood of Christ is present also, as is the soul, and the divinity. And the Blood of CHrist is present at the words, “This is My Blood,” and, by the necessity of concomitance, the Body of Christ is present also, as is the soul, and the divinity.
  2. Therefore, the whole Christ, God and man, is contained under each species - that is, each set of appearances, namely, the appearances of bread and the appearances of wine.

Hope this helps.

God bless.*
 
I like intinction. At my old Evangelical church nearby that’s how we did communion. I was always used to the small cups and bread and all of us taking in unison. But I like the intinction better, it allows one to have a brief few seconds of solemn reflection.

But again, I don’t see why the host has both the body and blood?
A body without blood is a dead body. It would make no sense to receive Christ that way.

In the Eucharistic elements we receive the Risen Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

To receive Christ entirely it is not necessary to receive both species.

It is necessary to consecrate both species in order for it to be a valid Mass, because Our Lord Jesus Christ’s Precious Blood was separated from His Body for us.

Most Catholics, because of the teaching authority of the Church on faith and morals, do not question every detail that comes to mind.
 
A body without blood is a dead body. It would make no sense to receive Christ that way.
This is what came to mind for me too. Never does a living body exist without the blood, nor can blood that is united to an actual living presence be so apart from a body. If a person’s blood is totally separated from their body, we no longer can say that the person is present in either the body or the blood, for the person is dead. Thus, in that situation, even if a person were to touch the body AND the blood in close succession, they have not really touched the person to whom that body and blood once belonged.

Yet we know that Christians have believed in the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Eucharist from the earliest times (and it is certainly true that the only two Churches with a traceable and unbroken succession to those times, Catholic and Orthodox, both believe in it). And we see that this Presence has never been thought of as just “dead flesh” and “dead blood”, which would in fact be rather morbid. Neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Church would deny that this Presence is a living Presence.

But for this to be so, for Christ to really be present, His body and blood must not be separate. At all. Even the act of receiving the Blood immediately after the Body wouldn’t solve anything if both elements didn’t contain both. Because, similarly to the example of the body separated from its blood, just because you received the blood immediately after receiving the body wouldn’t mean you had encountered the living presence of Christ, for that living presence would require a united Body and Blood. Therefore, if we believe that the Real Presence exists, and exists objectively, then it stands true that the Body and Blood must be inseparable in that Presence…where one is, there is the other. Where there is the Body, the Blood must be present, and vice versa. Thus if the Body is present in the Host, so too must the Blood be. If the Blood is present in the Cup, so too must the Body be.

Therefore, even if it took centuries for anyone to concretely define this implication (such is the nature of development of doctrine that something that, in hindsight, was implied to be true all along might take centuries to be spelled out in black and white), it just plainly makes sense that, if the Eucharist contains the Real (and living) Presence of Christ as Christians have believed since the earliest years, if to receive the Eucharist is to receive the Living Christ, then it must stand true that the body and blood are not separate, and are so closely united that it impossible for either species to contain one without containing the other.

With all that said, it is still obvious that having a solid food better visually calls to mind the body and having a liquid better visually calls to mind the blood. I believe this is a plausible reason for why Christ consecrated both at the Last Supper, instead of just one species, even though He could have done it that way. And it is because Christ consecrated both species that, despite close reflection on the Real Presence teaching us that both Body and Blood must be present in each individual species, a Mass is not valid unless both species have been consecrated.

I hope this is helpful! 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
  1. In the Holy Eucharist, Christ is present whole and entire [Body, Blood, soul, and Godhead or divnity] under the appearances or accidentals of bread and wine. The words of Consecration bring the living Christ, God and man, truly present. The words, “This is My Body,” bring Christ’s Body truly present, and the Godhead which assumed this body. The words, “This is myh Blood,” bring Christ’s Blood truly present. THIS IS CHRIST’S LIVING BLOOD; therefore IT IS IN ITS BODY, WITH THE SOUL, AND THE DIVINITY OR GODHEAD WHICH ASSUMED THIS BLOOD. THUS THE WHOLE CHRIST IS PRESENT UNDER THE APPEAREANCES OF BREAD, AND THE WHOLE CHRIST IS PRESENT UNDER THE APPEARANCES OF WINE, AND THE WHOLE CHRIST IS PRESENT UNDER BOTH APPEARANCES TOGETHER. For, if two things are really united, wherever one is the other must be. Thus, by the words, “this is my Body”, and be the necessity of concomitance, the Blood of Christ is present also, as is the soul, and the divinity. And the Blood of CHrist is present at the words, “This is My Blood,” and, by the necessity of concomitance, the Body of Christ is present also, as is the soul, and the divinity.
    A body without blood is a dead body. It would make no sense to receive Christ that way.
In the Eucharistic elements we receive the Risen Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
To receive Christ entirely it is not necessary to receive both species.
It is necessary to consecrate both species in order for it to be a valid Mass, because Our Lord Jesus Christ’s Precious Blood was separated from His Body for us.
OK, thank you both. This makes sense.
But why take it separately? It feels incomplete to take just one species, does it not?
Do non-Catholic believers in the Real Presence also hold that his body and blood are present under both species?
Therefore, even if it took centuries for anyone to concretely define this implication (such is the nature of development of doctrine that something that, in hindsight, was implied to be true all along might take centuries to be spelled out in black and white), it just plainly makes sense that, if the Eucharist contains the Real (and living) Presence of Christ as Christians have believed since the earliest years, if to receive the Eucharist is to receive the Living Christ, then it must stand true that the body and blood are not separate, and are so closely united that it impossible for either species to contain one without containing the other.
OK, thank you. Why does the Orthodox Church take both species, and Catholics just one? Do they also think it’s valid to have one species and not the other?

Thanks again.
 
OK, thank you both. This makes sense.
But why take it separately? It feels incomplete to take just one species, does it not?
Do non-Catholic believers in the Real Presence also hold that his body and blood are present under both species?
Indeed, it is compatible with Catholicism to admit that it feels incomplete to take just one species, because feelings and reality are not necessarily going to line up. So a faithful Catholic might say that it does indeed feel incomplete, as long as he admits that this is just a feeling, not a reality.

Now the symbolism is indeed “fuller” by receiving under both kinds. While the Host and the Cup each truly contain both the Body and Blood, the Host clearly better symbolizes the Real Presence of the Body it truly is, and the Cup clearly better symbolizes the Real Presence of the Blood it truly contains. For this reason, many theologians would indeed agree that it is a fuller symbol if one receives both kinds.

The reason, in fact, that for a long time the Liturgy called for only giving the Faithful One Kind was, if I recall correctly, because of excessive persistence of a heresy that said that the Host only contained the Body and the Cup only contained the Blood. In order to stamp out this heresy, if I understand correctly, the Tridentine Mass only allowed the lay Faithful to receive the Host, so as to better emphasize the point that each species contained both the Body and Blood. This was an extreme circumstance, and the Church probably felt that it was more important to protect an orthodox understanding of our Faith, even if it meant the symbolism mentioned above wasn’t quite as “full.” Right belief outweighs the importance of symbolism. Of course, even then, it’s important to note that both kinds were consecrated, and even taken by the Priest, just not received by the Lay Faithful.

As for reasons a person might willingly not take both Species, there might be any number of reasons. The person might be ill and not want to spread it. Or there might be an illness going around. Or the person may have celiac disease and not be able to have gluten, as would be found in the scientific properties of the Host. Or a person may be an alcoholic, and need only a sip of what tastes and behaves like wine to feel tempted.
OK, thank you. Why does the Orthodox Church take both species, and Catholics just one? Do they also think it’s valid to have one species and not the other?
Thanks again.
You’re welcome.

As for the Orthodox Church’s practice, it’s hard to say. They believe in the Real Presence, just as we do, and in my previous post I covered how believing that each species contains both the Body and Blood can be logically inferred from that belief. However, that’s not necessarily to say that the Orthodox have inferred that, yet. Just as it’s possible that, at some point in the Catholic Church’s history, this doctrine had not yet developed in a concrete way (even though it can be seen as an implied necessity just from believing in the Real Presence), so too might it be true that the Orthodox haven’t developed this doctrine in a concrete way down to this very day. I don’t know for sure what they believe about it, and you’d have to ask a member of the Orthodox Church, but it’s possible that, as I say, they simply haven’t made this same development.

Alternatively, it’s possible that the Orthodox do believe that both Body and Blood are present in each individual species, just as we do (again, I don’t know what they believe, exactly) but are simply more strict about enforcing the “full symbolism” mentioned above by requiring that both kinds be received despite that each species contained both Body and Blood. In that case, from a Catholic understanding (even if not an Eastern Orthodox understanding) a practice like this would be more of a disciplinary measure than an unchangeable doctrinal one, in the same way that the Tridentine Mass’s lack of reception of the Cup for the Faithful was a disciplinary measure and not an unchangeable doctrinal one.

I hope this makes sense. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Indeed, it is compatible with Catholicism to admit that it feels incomplete to take just one species, because feelings and reality are not necessarily going to line up. So a faithful Catholic might say that it does indeed feel incomplete, as long as he admits that this is just a feeling, not a reality.

Now the symbolism is indeed “fuller” by receiving under both kinds. While the Host and the Cup each truly contain both the Body and Blood, the Host clearly better symbolizes the Real Presence of the Body it truly is, and the Cup clearly better symbolizes the Real Presence of the Blood it truly contains. For this reason, many theologians would indeed agree that it is a fuller symbol if one receives both kinds.

The reason, in fact, that for a long time the Liturgy called for only giving the Faithful One Kind was, if I recall correctly, because of excessive persistence of a heresy that said that the Host only contained the Body and the Cup only contained the Blood. In order to stamp out this heresy, if I understand correctly, the Tridentine Mass only allowed the lay Faithful to receive the Host, so as to better emphasize the point that each species contained both the Body and Blood. This was an extreme circumstance, and the Church probably felt that it was more important to protect an orthodox understanding of our Faith, even if it meant the symbolism mentioned above wasn’t quite as “full.” Right belief outweighs the importance of symbolism. Of course, even then, it’s important to note that both kinds were consecrated, and even taken by the Priest, just not received by the Lay Faithful.

As for reasons a person might willingly not take both Species, there might be any number of reasons. The person might be ill and not want to spread it. Or there might be an illness going around. Or the person may have celiac disease and not be able to have gluten, as would be found in the scientific properties of the Host. Or a person may be an alcoholic, and need only a sip of what tastes and behaves like wine to feel tempted.

You’re welcome.

As for the Orthodox Church’s practice, it’s hard to say. They believe in the Real Presence, just as we do, and in my previous post I covered how believing that each species contains both the Body and Blood can be logically inferred from that belief. However, that’s not necessarily to say that the Orthodox have inferred that, yet. Just as it’s possible that, at some point in the Catholic Church’s history, this doctrine had not yet developed in a concrete way (even though it can be seen as an implied necessity just from believing in the Real Presence), so too might it be true that the Orthodox haven’t developed this doctrine in a concrete way down to this very day. I don’t know for sure what they believe about it, and you’d have to ask a member of the Orthodox Church, but it’s possible that, as I say, they simply haven’t made this same development.

Alternatively, it’s possible that the Orthodox do believe that both Body and Blood are present in each individual species, just as we do (again, I don’t know what they believe, exactly) but are simply more strict about enforcing the “full symbolism” mentioned above by requiring that both kinds be received despite that each species contained both Body and Blood. In that case, from a Catholic understanding (even if not an Eastern Orthodox understanding) a practice like this would be more of a disciplinary measure than an unchangeable doctrinal one, in the same way that the Tridentine Mass’s lack of reception of the Cup for the Faithful was a disciplinary measure and not an unchangeable doctrinal one.

I hope this makes sense. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
Thanks again. That makes sense.

God bless you too!
 
OK, thank you both. This makes sense.
But why take it separately? It feels incomplete to take just one species, does it not?
Do non-Catholic believers in the Real Presence also hold that his body and blood are present under both species?

OK, thank you. Why does the Orthodox Church take both species, and Catholics just one? Do they also think it’s valid to have one species and not the other?

Thanks again.
FabiusMaximus,

I am not sure why people take it separately. I do know in the past when people were insisting that the laity had a right to the Sacred Blood of Jesus, the Church only offered the Sacred Host to combat the heresies that were rampant in these parts of history. I do know that the priest who offered Mass took under both speices and never under just one. [If I am wrong in this please by all means point it out with sources.]

I know some people do not take the Sacred Cup with the Sacred Blood in it, becuase some of them have issues with Alcohol, which to me is mute, because it is NOT alcohol but the Sacred Body, and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. I have never seen anyone get drunk by taking the Eucharistic wine and albeit I can say with confidence, that I do not think I will ever see this happen.

As to it being imcomplete by only taking one species, I can understand this where you are coming from. But only being incomplete as one is not taking both species. But whichever one takes, they are still consuming Christ Whole and Entirely present. So you see it is very complete in this sense.

For me, I perfer to take both species of the Eucharist.

As to the other questions, I do not have suitable answers to post here as I am not that knowledgeable about them.

God bless.
 
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