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Apryl
Guest
So what you are really saying is that the USCCB is making the changes, and your parish is implementing them, correct?
(I hate when it feels like I’m going all terrior on questions, but I’m trying to be clear)
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(I hate when it feels like I’m going all terrior on questions, but I’m trying to be clear)
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Mary_ann_R
Guest
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Brendan
Guest
The USCCB is making the changes under a mandate from the Vatican, and the parish is implementing these changes.
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
I was always taught to genuflect at that point…
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Corki
Guest
The ICEL, as I understand it, came up with the new translation. The USCCB and the bishops of other English speaking countries got the chance to make “suggestions” before it is final. I don’t know if ICEL or Vox Clara makes the final determination. Neither the USCCB or the parish worship aid writer has the authority to change the words at this time.
The “for all” vs. “for many” issue is separate.Cardinal Arinze sent letters to the heads of the episopal conferences that this change was to be made. This was separate from the ICEL work but in the US, we will probably see it in missals at the same time we see the new translation.
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Matas
Guest
I started bowing after I read that one should in the “Gather” hymnals at my church. I don’t believe many people bow during the creed at my church, at least, not the ones around me. I tend to keep my eyes closed during the Mass as a way of “plucking out my eye if it causes me to sin.”
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Asperges_Me
Guest
Exactly!!! If every priest just simply followed the Roman Missal and the GIRM, there wouldn’t be any liturgical abuses ever, or probably even claims of abuse. And there wouldn’t be forums like this to wonder if this or that action by a priest was right or wrong, valid or invalid, licit or illicit.
Unfortunately, 98-99% of parishes do make up their own version of the Mass. That is sadly the reality.
But, I think that there is often a double standard applied by a lot of people. If the unathorized change is to move toward the authentic interpretation of Latin which is going to happen someday anyway, then it’s “divisive blah blah blah”, “against unity blah blah blah”. But if the unathorized change is to use gender inclusive language or some priest’s personal interpretation, then it’s “you have to trust the pastor’s judgment blah blah blah”, “offer it up blah blah blah” or “it doesn’t invalidate the mass blah blah blah”.
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stmaria
Guest
Why not kneel? That’s what is done in the Traditional Mass.
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Katie1723
Guest
It’s called being on a soapbox. I have been known to get on one myself. Not always a good place to be.
Kathy
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japhy
Guest
Because that would be a liturgical abuse, like it or not. The GIRM states that we are to make a profound bow during that line of the Creed, except on two particular feast days.
When Mass is said in the Extraordinary Form, you are required to kneel at that part of the creed; when Mass is said in the Ordinary form, you are required to make a profound bow.
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Asperges_Me
Guest
Come on now! I would hardly call kneeling at the words of incarnation an abuse! A previously approved liturgical practice should never be called an abuse. Irregular perhaps but not an abuse. Let’s be concerned about abuse when the Credo is omitted on Sundays. Lets’ be concerned about abuse when words are changed for “inclusive language”.
During the Pater Noster, people’s postures are all over the place like folded, orans, hand holding etc. And a lot of people don’t think a second thought, when others do as they please.
So what if someone felt it was more reverent to kneel during the Creed? I get fed up when it is implied that going back to the bad old Latin Mass traditions is somehow “awful”, but all other innovations are tolerated and even condoned.
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MH84
Guest
Hear, hear.
But if the individual is genuflecting for the sake of drawing attention to himself (or herself), then the individual has to reflect for a moment about what he is doing.
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japhy
Guest
Well, where’s the line drawn, then? If you’re at the Ordinary Form, you’re expected to do adopt the posture required by the rubrics, just as at the Extraordinary Form. That means you stand, kneel, and sit at specific times. It means, for instance, you stop kneeling after the Great Amen and kneel again (unless the bishop says otherwise…) after the Agnus Dei; kneeling all the way through is not obedient to the Ordinary Form.
If the GIRM and Sacramentary say we should kneel at the Et incarnatus est, then by all means, we should all kneel. But that’s not what they say to do. Maybe in the future, they will say that, because the Extraordinary Form will exert a “gravitational pull” (as Fr. Z calls it) on the Ordinary Form. But for the time being, if we’re not going to let priests change the red and the black, we shouldn’t change the red and the black either.
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Lux_et_Tenebrae
Guest
I agree that it should not be called an abuse, and I’m not sure it is.
But it is best to worship in community at the Mass, which is public community worship.
I would kneel if at a Tridentine Mass or other more traditional Mass.
Lux
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lak611
Guest
I just follow what the rubrics call for. I bow during the OF and genuflect during the EF. If a attended an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy, I would follow the proper rubrics there as well (I don’t know what they are, but I would learn and follow them if I was there).
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Andrewcarey
Guest
you are correct, we are supposed to bow at the 3rd line of the creed, I don’t know why some people don’t do it at my home parish when the Bishop asked the priest do that.
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water
Guest
What is the meaning for this particular bowing? Thanks!
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lak611
Guest
Honouring the Incarnation.
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water
Guest
Thank you. I was wondering about this for few months but didn’t ask. I was just guessing at that time about the humility and obedience of Virgin Mary when she said “yes”.
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Asperges_Me
Guest
Thank you for your comments. However, the drawing attention to ones self comment I have heard before and can cut both ways. I agree that the bowing during the creed is not a good example, because the rubrics are specific.Hear, hear.
I have seen some people accused of that for kneeling for communion for example. But then the same people who make the accusation, will defend say, the orans posture during the Pater Noster. To me, people who use that posture, especially in a more conservative parish are saying “Look at me I’m a mini-priest or I believe in the priesthood of all believers”. If the rubrics do not call for the orans posture, people should in humility not adopt it. If someone can point out anywhere where the orans is specifically called out for the laity, please inform me.
Here’s another example, in a couple parishes I know people still have the custom on genuflecting during the last blessing. This is probably a custom carried over from the Traditional Latin Mass days. In one parish a majority, (but not all) do it. In the other many, but still a minority do it. When I am at those parishes, I follow that custom. When I am at other parishes where no one does it, I don’t do it.
So my question is if you’re a supportor of the orans, or other unathorized postures, would you support this one as well? Or is this case different because this custom is from the “bad old, mean old, dinosaur” Traditional Latin Mass?
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