Bow or Genuflect at Consecration?

[JRKH]

Our parish doesn’t have kneelers - we do have some folks who kneel on the floor, some of us bow, some do nothing. I think if we had kneelers, this wouldn’t be an issue - and I think the fact that we don’t have kneelers leads to less reverence in general.

Please Let your parish and diocese know your feelings on this, if you haven’t already. I cannot believe it when I walk into a Catholic Church and find thay have no kneelers. Thankfully ours does.

I also am concerned that people stand or sit while the door of the tabernacle stands open. I was taught that when that door is open, YOU KNEEL, unless you’re going up for communion.

Bring Back the Kneelers.

James

 

[cue]

Many concelebrated Masses have a large number of priests at the altar, and it would be quite disruptive if all of them tried to genuflect. Also often very elderly priests concelebrate, rather than say the Mass by themself because they may have difficulty .

Remember the rules are made for the common good, rather than specific instances.

Lux

Lux, I apologize if I have given you offense. I did not intend to misquote or misrepresent your point. Moreover, my criticism, by way of the example conversation, was not aimed at you. I was commenting on the justification of these inconsistencies and sought to illustrate their consequences; inconsistencies that you and I do not control and consequences which you and I do not desire.

But I have to ask about your last line:

Remember the rules are made for the common good, rather than specific instances.

Would not these “elderly priests” that “may have difficulty” be the specific instances while the impact on the faithful would be the “common good?” I think your statement is right on but I believe we are applying it differently.

 

[JRKH]

I was only 44 (and very healthy) when I began going to mass during my conversion into the RCC and I was never able to genuflect without at least holding onto a pew (although I really wanted to - I’m a firm believer in what C.S. Lewis spoke of in “Screwtape Letters” about a human’s outward positions having to do with his soul!). ** I couldn’t figure out how so many people had managed to genuflect while receiving on the tongue.
Did the altar boys help most people?** At any rate, although I’ve usually seen the priest genuflect during consecration (often while needing to hold onto the altar in order to get up and down), there often isn’t anything to hold onto (no altar rails anymore) while passing in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

There was little problem with this in the old rite because you recieved communion at the communion rail. You walked up to the rail which stretched across the church between the pews and the sanctuary and knelt down. The Priest would come by from your right preceeded by an altar boy. The altar boy would hold a platten under your chin in case the host was dropped. The Priest would then place the host onto your extended tongue. You were never to touch the Host with anything but your tongue, not chew but let is soften and swallow. You could then use the rail to help yourself up.
If kneeling was impossible, you would stand as near the rail as possible and the Priest would reach out to you.

I do miss the old ways, even though they started changing when I was 10. I genuflect when I enter the church, when entering or leaving a pew and when leaving the church. In addition, during adoration one should go down on both knees. (if able). Often I see aged people struggle down and up while youngsters can’t be bothered with even and attempt a genuflecting. I do miss the ld ways.

James

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Lux, I apologize if I have given you offense. I did not intend to misquote or misrepresent your point. Moreover, my criticism, by way of the example conversation, was not aimed at you. I was commenting on the justification of these inconsistencies and sought to illustrate their consequences; inconsistencies that you and I do not control and consequences which you and I do not desire.

You applied your opinion to the point I made about concelebration.

As was pointed out the concelebrating priests are instructed to bow.

Your post was totally off the mark of what I am saying. And to imply a bowing person, priest or lay does not believe in the real prenence is very wrong and malicious—far more wrong than a bow when the circumstances warrant it.

Would not these “elderly priests” that “may have difficulty” be the specific instances while the impact on the faithful would be the “common good?” I think your statement is right on but I believe we are applying it differently

How about the common good of the concelebrants? (which is the group to which this rule applies- and the point of this thread)

Lux

 

[tee_eff_em]

As another wrench in the works: Is the priest in question a Carmelite, celebrating according to the Carmelite Rite? I believe that does not call for the celebrant to genuflect, but rather to make a profound bow.

tee

 

[sphilomena]

We are talking about the priest at the Consecration: he must genuflect. The fact that so many bow has become a trend and those I have seen doing it have no physical problems. Now lay people cross the church in front of the tabernacle (where they’re lucky enough to have one visible) and just bow. See how errors spread! A genuflection is always made in front of the tabernacle and a bow in front of the altar.

I believe it’s in the Ceremonial of Bishops and also Mass Confusion or a similar book. The catechism of the Council of Trent pronounced those anathema who said one did not have to genuflect before the tabernacle! How far we have fallen.

 

[timmo]

we have 4 priests in our parish and in the last three or four weeks i notice that the 3 younger priests have stopped genuflecting and are bowing instead. we also have a regular visiting priest and he also has started bowing rather than genuflecting. i suspect it’s some king of organised dissent?
I’d really like to hear more about this - it seems to me to be a denial of The Real Presence.
I’m not exaggerating - it would apear that some smoke has enterd the Temple of God.

 

[sphilomena]

Most innocent would be that it is laziness and sloppiness. I hate to think the priests are losing their faith in the Real Presence. I will never forget, however, the horror I felt at seeing one priest toss the Host down on the paten after the elevation, and I mean toss.

 

[Brooklyn]

There was little problem with this in the old rite because you recieved communion at the communion rail. You walked up to the rail which stretched across the church between the pews and the sanctuary and knelt down. The Priest would come by from your right preceeded by an altar boy. The altar boy would hold a platten under your chin in case the host was dropped. The Priest would then place the host onto your extended tongue. You were never to touch the Host with anything but your tongue, not chew but let is soften and swallow. You could then use the rail to help yourself up.
If kneeling was impossible, you would stand as near the rail as possible and the Priest would reach out to you.

I do miss the old ways, even though they started changing when I was 10. I genuflect when I enter the church, when entering or leaving a pew and when leaving the church. In addition, during adoration one should go down on both knees. (if able). Often I see aged people struggle down and up while youngsters can’t be bothered with even and attempt a genuflecting. I do miss the ld ways.

James

Sigh - I feel as you do. We are talking about honoring our Creator and our Saviour, who came to this earth and hung on a bloody cross so that we may have life. I think he deserves every bit of honor and adoration we can possibly give him, and years ago, that is exactly what people did. Like you, I remember that when I was a kid, the consecrated Host was held in such adoration that lay people were not allowed to touch it. I remember distinctly that my 2nd grade teacher in 1962 told us that if you see a host on the floor, you could not pick it up but needed to get the priest to pick it up. As one who just came back to the Church, I’m struggling to get use to the fact that lay people can give Communion and that people receive the Eucharist in their hands.

There was a sense of adoration and awe in years past that far too often I don’t see anymore. I find it very sad.

Mary

 

[Brooklyn]

we have 4 priests in our parish and in the last three or four weeks i notice that the 3 younger priests have stopped genuflecting and are bowing instead. we also have a regular visiting priest and he also has started bowing rather than genuflecting. i suspect it’s some king of organised dissent?
I’d really like to hear more about this - it seems to me to be a denial of The Real Presence.
I’m not exaggerating - it would apear that some smoke has enterd the Temple of God.

This is exactly what I am talking about. It has me very concerned also, and I wanted to know if others felt as I do, or if I’m over reacting.

Mary

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

we have 4 priests in our parish and in the last three or four weeks i notice that the 3 younger priests have stopped genuflecting and are bowing instead. we also have a regular visiting priest and he also has started bowing rather than genuflecting. i suspect it’s some king of organised dissent?
I’d really like to hear more about this - it seems to me to be a denial of The Real Presence.
I’m not exaggerating - it would apear that some smoke has enterd the Temple of God.

As I said before, Your judgement is far more serious than a profound bow.

I would look at my own plank before I judge a priest’s splinter, if I were you.

Lux

 

[timmo]

i understand that in the Latin Rite a genuflection is more profound than a bow and a genuflection is what’s specified in the GIRM.
If this abuse were an isolated one or due to sloppiness or laziness i would be very consoled.
however, when 4 out of 5 priests in one parish start to give less than the profound respect due to The Holy Eucharist which they have just consecrated it can hardly be construed as straining gnats and swallowing camels. But, maybe that’s just me.
regards tim

 

[Jennifer_G]

I’m surprised at how many in my parish do nothing special at the Consecration. Our wonderful priest from Poland taught us to bow at the Consecration, and that’s what I do (and many others do too). I learned more about reverence from him in two years than I did in my previous 45!

At the parish I go to, we bow during the consecration. We also genuflect when going to/leaving our pew. Bowing seems optional when receiving communion.

 

[Brooklyn]

Ok guys, this is what I found:

"**The Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani (IGMR), the rules for celebration of Mass in the Roman Rite, explains the meaning of traditional Catholic gestures, genuflections and bows, indicating when these expressive gestures are to be assumed at Mass.

GENUFLECTIONS AND BOWS
274 A genuflection, which is made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and for this reason is reserved to the Most Blessed Sacrament and to the Holy Cross, from the solemn adoration in the liturgy of Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.

Three genuflections are made during Mass by the priest celebrant: after the showing of the Eucharistic bread, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion. Special features to be observed in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their proper place (see nos. 210-252).

If there is a tabernacle with the Blessed Sacrament in the sanctuary, the priest, deacon and other ministers genuflect to it when they approach or leave the altar, but not during the celebration of Mass itself. Otherwise, all who cross before the most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are involved in a procession.**"

The title for this is:

“IGMR 274, 275:
Genuflection signifies adoration of Blessed Sacrament;
Bow means reverence & honor
[Page 5 of the March 2003 AB]”

The link, in case you’re interested is:

adoremus.org/0303IGMR_Adapt.html#anchor1616125

This seems to be pretty clear. The rubrics of the Mass are that the priest should genuflect at consecration.

Now what do we do?

Mary

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

This seems to be pretty clear. The rubrics of the Mass are that the priest should genuflect at consecration.

Now what do we do?

Mary

RS is pretty clear about PERCEIVED abuses.

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

1. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

1. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

(emphsis mine)

First of all, you do not know that the priest is able to genuflect. You could respectfully ask him why he doesn’t genuflect.

I personally would do nothing. Perhaps someday you will have knee problems and will understand.

Lux

 

[timmo]

Hi Lux
I am at a loss as to how to respond, in truth and charity, to your post. I suppose i could just do nothing, but here goes.
Like Brooklyn i am a revert (just over two years, about 40 years away) and i empathise with his/her consternation.
Your conclusions may apply to Brooklyn’s concerns, but they certainly don’t address mine.

Your comments probably reflect your personal experience and if such is the case i would consider you very fortunate, even blessed – and your “I personally would do nothing” comment might be understandable.

For me it’s like standing on a track with a train approaching- i am in no doubt that the train i PERCEIVE is actually a real train.
For me this is very serious and has absolutely nothing to do with knees.

Hopefully it’s a localised problem, due to ignorance or open to some innocent explanation (did Neville Chamberlain say something like that?).

In an attempt at truth and charity,
tim

 

[Brooklyn]

RS is pretty clear about PERCEIVED abuses.

(emphsis mine)

First of all, you do not know that the priest is able to genuflect. You could respectfully ask him why he doesn’t genuflect.

I personally would do nothing. Perhaps someday you will have knee problems and will understand.

Lux

I emailed a priest and asked him this question. His response was that excepting physical disability, the priest should be doing the three genuflections as prescibed by the Novus Ordo (Missal of John Paul II). He suggested sending a kindly worded letter to the offending priest.

There is one church I go to where there is an elderly priest who I’m sure does have trouble genuflecting. But the priests I’m talking about seem to be very able bodied.

Mary

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

As was mentioned, your options to this PERCEIVED abuse are clear, and one of them is not to speculate about a priest’s belief in the Real Presence.

This to me is a far more serious offfence.

Lux

 

[Brooklyn]

Hi again,

As was mentioned, your options to this PERCEIVED abuse are clear, and one of them is not to speculate about a priest’s belief in the Real Presence.

This to me is a far more serious offfence.

Lux

Your attitude is puzzling. Why do you think that showing proper respect and reverence to our Lord is not a serious abuse? I’m not talking about going up and yelling at a priest, but merely questioning him as to why he is not adhering to the rubrics of the Mass as propounded by Pope John Paul II.

I have notice that in Churches where the priest does not genuflect but only bows, the people bow and do not genuflect, and likewise, where the priest does genuflect, the parishoners do the same. I think it is a very serious matter.

Mary

 

[Sure]

I have notice that in Churches where the priest does not genuflect but only bows, the people bow and do not genuflect, and likewise, where the priest does genuflect, the parishoners do the same. I think it is a very serious matter.

Mary

Is this perhaps in churches that have the tabernacle in a separate adjoining room? If that’s the case, the proper action for the congregation is to bow toward the altar before entering the pew or when passing in front of the altar.