Bow or Kneel?

[ConstantineTG]

When I’m in an Eastern Catholic Church, I will always bow, but at times in the liturgy, I’ve observed plenty of kneeling in just about every Eastern Catholic Church I’ve visited, Sundays included.

de-Latinization is a process. It doesn’t happen overnight.

 

[Seamus_L]

A couple of weeks ago I spoke with a young Ukrainian Catholic priest. He told me that in parts of Ukraine it is common for people to kneel when receiving communion. He also called the liturgy the mass, which afterwards made me hope that there are more like him out there so the UGCC doesn’t become a carbon copy of the Orthodox Church.

 

[ahs]

Why not?

Do you mean “why not” regarding the holy water and icons upon leaving the Mass? I don’t know the official answer, but the way it wa explained to me is that before Mass, you use the Holy Water to remind you of your Baptismal promise. After Mass, you do not need to be reminded of this because you professed your Faith in the Mass and received Christ in the Eucharist and received the blessing from the Priest…so there is no need to return to teh Holy Water font after Mass.

Again, that’s how it was explained to me…but I don’t know that this is an actual teaching.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

He also called the liturgy the mass, which afterwards made me hope that there are more like him out there so the UGCC doesn’t become a carbon copy of the Orthodox Church.

What exactly is the point of this comment?

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

In regards to the picture posted.

My preferences are for #2 and #5.

I usually will do a full or 2/3rds bow in most circumstances. With or without the sign of the cross.

#3 I see a lot at the OCF meetings I go to and a few folks at my parish will do it.

I think I’ve seen #4 maybe once or twice.

And I’ve never seen #6 which is pretty latin looking. So My gut says it’s a matter of personal piety but probably won’t be done publicly. LOL.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A couple of weeks ago I spoke with a young Ukrainian Catholic priest. He told me that in parts of Ukraine it is common for people to kneel when receiving communion. He also called the liturgy the mass, which afterwards made me hope that there are more like him out there so the UGCC doesn’t become a carbon copy of the Orthodox Church.

Thankfully the Pope is not of this thinking. Our bishop is already finding ways back to our own authentic tradition.

I don’t get it. Latins insist on returning to their tradition, yet deny the Eastern Church from returning to theirs. Double standards. But again, thankfully the Pope doesn’t think this way. Since Vatican II, the mandate of the Eastern Churches is to return to its authentic traditions, free from Latinizations. The exact words is “must”. It is a mandate, not a suggestion.

 

[theistgal]

When I’m in an Eastern Catholic Church, I will always bow, but at times in the liturgy, I’ve observed plenty of kneeling in just about every Eastern Catholic Church I’ve visited, Sundays included.

Then you haven’t been to ours. We don’t have kneelers. And while an occasional visitor might kneel (which is perfectly OK - no liturgy cops here! ) most of the “regulars” know better.

 

[Hesychios]

Then you haven’t been to ours. We don’t have kneelers. And while an occasional visitor might kneel (which is perfectly OK - no liturgy cops here! ) most of the “regulars” know better.

I take it you are somewhere west of the Mississippi.

 

[Seamus_L]

I seriously doubt that those people in Ukraine who kneel for Communion, or are deeply attached to the Rosary or the Stations of the Cross, or Adoration, are Latins. But I guess they’ll all have to be re-catechised.

 

[Zacdecat]

I look around and if the Blessed Sacrament is present I genuflect. If it isn’t, I bow to the altar.

Why would it not be?..excepting Good Friday

 

[5Loaves]

which afterwards made me hope that there are more like him out there so the UGCC doesn’t become a carbon copy of the Orthodox Church.

We each ought to be a carbon copy of the orthodox Orthodox Church of the same patrimony. As others have said our Holy Fathers have consistently called for this return to our authentic praxis.

 

[5Loaves]

In the Byzantine Church one should kiss both Icons of the season on entering the Church, they should not be kissed on leaving.

I’m not sure what “both Icons of the season” means, but in the Russian Orthodox Churches here we venerate our icons, festal icon, the Christ God icon, the Mother of God icon, and perhaps various other icons (patron of that temple, crucifix at the memorial table, a saint one has a special devotion to) when entering and again when leaving the temple. In our Russian Greek Catholic parish we do the same. Venerating definitely includes kissing.

Then you haven’t been to ours. We don’t have kneelers. And while an occasional visitor might kneel (which is perfectly OK - no liturgy cops here! ) most of the “regulars” know better.

Same in my Russian Greek Catholic parish, on Sundays .

I take it you are somewhere west of the Mississippi.

Looking right out at the Pacific Ocean.

 

[dvdjs]

Since Vatican II, the mandate of the Eastern Churches is to return to its authentic traditions, free from Latinizations. The exact words is “must”. It is a mandate, not a suggestion.

I don’t recall “must” - perhaps it was there - or an unqualified appeal to “authentic tradition” (whatever that might be). I recall three criteria: authentic tradition, organic development, and pastoral sensitivity.

Moreover, however well intentioned the Vatican is, an obvious first part this restoration must be our own willingness to take responsibility for our own history and future. Appeals to what some Popes have said - as though the Pope should micromanage our liturgical affairs do not and cannot advance responsible restoration.

 

[dvdjs]

We each ought to be a carbon copy of the orthodox Orthodox Church of the same patrimony. As others have said our Holy Fathers have consistently called for this return to our authentic praxis.

The notion that authentic praxis entails a carbon copy of the [praxis of the] Orthodox Church of the same patrimony may be a reasonable one for the Russian Greek Catholic Church. It is not really adequate or workable for many others.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t recall “must” - perhaps it was there - or an unqualified appeal to “authentic tradition” (whatever that might be). I recall three criteria: authentic tradition, organic development, and pastoral sensitivity.

Moreover, however well intentioned the Vatican is, an obvious first part this restoration must be our own willingness to take responsibility for our own history and future. Appeals to what some Popes have said - as though the Pope should micromanage our liturgical affairs do not and cannot advance responsible restoration.

Its not about the Pope micromanaging the Eastern Churches, but rather recognizing the injustice that the Roman Church has placed on the Eastern Churches via Latinizations

 

[TrueLight]

In the Roman Church, you should bless yourself with holy water on entering the Church but should not do so on leaving the Church.

Really?

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Constantine,

Thankfully the Pope is not of this thinking. Our bishop is already finding ways back to our own authentic tradition.

I don’t get it. Latins insist on returning to their tradition, yet deny the Eastern Church from returning to theirs. Double standards. But again, thankfully the Pope doesn’t think this way. Since Vatican II, the mandate of the Eastern Churches is to return to its authentic traditions, free from Latinizations. The exact words is “must”. It is a mandate, not a suggestion.

There is no mistaking that even today Eastern Catholic churches are seriously conflicted over this, most notably in India but this is true to some extent all over. Clearly, Eastern Catholics are not of one mind on this idea of returning to authentic traditions.

It is sad to see that it required a Vatican mandate. Actually, it is much like an admission that the movement toward self-determination is not genuine.

How far from the bold days so long ago when the synod of Ruthenian bishops once demanded terms from the Papacy, including:

…That the divine worship and all prayers and services of Orthros, Vespers, and the night services shall remain intact (without any change at all) for us according to the ancient custom of the Eastern Church

…That the Mystery of Holy Baptism and its form should remain among us unchanged as we have served it until now,

…that we should not have to make such processions with our Mysteries inasmuch as our use of the Mysteries is different

…That the marriages of priests remain intact

…That our Bishops should not send to Rome for the permission to consecrate

…If in the future someone of our Religion should want to join the Roman Church, denying his own Religion and Ceremonies, let him not be accepted

…That Archimandrates, Hegumenoi, monks and their monasteries, according to the old custom shall be under the obedience of the bishops of their dioceses

…That our Rus’ monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches

Concluding thus … that in our name and in their own name they should ask the Most Holy Father the Pope, and also the King’s Grace, our merciful lord, to confirm and guarantee beforehand all the articles which we have here given in writing, so that assured as to the faith, the Mysteries, and our ceremonies, we might come to this holy accord with the Roman Church without any violation of our conscience and the flock of Christ committed unto us and likewise that others who are still hesitating, seeing that we retain everything inviolate, might more quickly come after us to this holy union.

These were bold men. Not afraid of the Papacy, although they very much respected it. They insisted on their rights before they themselves would act, they demanded and received promises. They acted upon their own initiative and did not wait for Rome to offer up some little concessions.

That spirit left the church ages ago. The later bishops of that same church, long since appointed by kings and Popes embraced latinizations with vigor, resulting in the notorious Synod of Zamosc, and eventually the suppression of the hours in favor of Latin devotions, the removal of the monasteries from the control of the bishops and gathering them into a Latin-like religious order, the routine poaching of Ruthenian faithful, etc. The original Orthodox bishop-signatories, who placed so much hope in this new beginning, were betrayed.

All this resulting in a church that did not know how to restore itself or why it should, and had to be ordered to do so from outside for the Vatican’s reasons, not it’s own reasons.

 

[Aramis]

So an Orthodox Catholic will bow instead of genuflect, right?
And their churches have icons?

I am slightly confused about the differences between the two branches.
Feel free to fill me in on the comparision/contrast between Eastern Catholicism and Traditional Catholicism.

Thanks,
Laura

Typically, the Eastern Orthodox and the Byzantine Rite Catholics (all of whom are Byzantine Rite) will bow instead of kneel, except at lenten “Kneeling Vespers”… Kneeling is a penitential practice only in the Byzantine praxis.

But the EO are not in union with Rome. The Byzantine Catholics are. That’s the difference.

 

[dvdjs]

Its not about the Pope micromanaging the Eastern Churches, but rather recognizing the injustice that the Roman Church has placed on the Eastern Churches via Latinizations

If it is a “must”, then it is micromanagement and not just. While I appreciate the endorsement of the Popes, I think we can handle this ourselves.

 

[theistgal]

I seriously doubt that those people in Ukraine who kneel for Communion, or are deeply attached to the Rosary or the Stations of the Cross, or Adoration, are Latins. But I guess they’ll all have to be re-catechised.

Why is it so important to you that the Eastern Rites become carbon copies of the Western Rites?

And no, I don’t think those people in the Ukraine you’re talking about need to be “re-catechized”. However, I do think some people in the West who think that all Catholics must pray the Rosary, kneel for Communion, or practice the Stations of the Cross, ought to be.