Bowing before men.

[Church_Militant]

This is about the dumbest buncha luncheon meat (baloney) I ever hear from a-Cs. Here are 17 places where OT people bowed to the ground to others. And this ain’t even all of them! Knock off the cheap bashes people and get a life. You SS proponets need to check out your Bibles before bashing Catholic practice.

1] Genesis 33 :3 And he went forward and bowed down with his face to the ground seven times until his brother came near.

2] Genesis 48 :12 And when Joseph had taken them from his father’s lap, he bowed down with his face to the ground.

3] 1 Samuel 28 :14 And he said to her: What form is he of? And she said: An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground, and adored.

4] 1 Paralipomenon 21 :21 And as David was coming to Ornan, Ornan saw him, and went out of the thrashingfloor to meet him, and bowed down to him with his face to the ground.

5] Genesis 43:26 Then Joseph came into his house, and they offered him the presents holding them in their hands, and they bowed down with their face to the ground.

6] Judith 10 :20 After she had looked on his face bowed down to him, prostrating herself to the ground. And the servants of Holofernes lifted her up, by the command of their master.

7] 2 Samuel 18 :28 And Achimaas crying out, said to the king: God save thee, O king. And falling down before the king with his face to the ground, he said: Blessed be the Lord thy God, who hath shut up the men that have lifted up their hands against the lord my king.

8] 1 Kings 25:41 And she arose and bowed herself down with her face to the earth, and said: Behold, let thy servant be a handmaid, to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.

9] Josue 5 :15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?

10] 1 Samuel 20 :41 And when the boy was gone, David rose out of his place, which was towards the south, and falling on his face to the ground, adored thrice: and kissing one another, they wept together, but David more.

11] 2 Esdras 8 :6 And Esdras blessed the Lord the great God: and all the people answered, Amen, amen: lifting up their hands: and they bowed down, and adored God with their faces to the ground.

12] Ezechiel 12 :12 And the prince that is in the midst of them, shall be carried on shoulders, he shall go forth in the dark: they shall dig through the wall to bring him out: his face shall be covered, that he may not see the ground with his eyes.

13] 2 Samuel 9 :32 And Jehu lifted up his face to the window, and said: Who is this? And two or three eunuchs bowed down to him.

14] 2 Samuel 14 :22 And Joab falling down to the ground upon his face, adored, and blessed the king: and Joab said: This day thy servant hath understood, that I have found grace in thy sight, my lord, O king: for thou hast fulfilled the request of thy servant.

15] 1 Machabees 4 :40 And they fell face down to the ground on their faces, and they sounded with the trumpets of alarm, and they cried towards heaven.

16] 2 Samuel 24 :21 An going out he worshipped the king, bowing with his face to the earth, and said: Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? Arid David said to him: To buy the thrashingfloor of thee, and build an altar to the Lord, that the plague, which rageth among the people, may cease.

17] Daniel 10 :9 And I heard the voice of his words: and when I heard, I lay in a consternation, upon my face, and my face was close to the ground.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Fidelis]

Just as you are imposing a 20th century American (and Protestant) definition on the word and activity of “worship,” you are doing the same to the action of kneeling while honoring or entreating a person. In ancient times (and until fairly recently, in the case of those who stood before royalty and magistrates), it was a common and entirely acceptable practice:

2Ki 1:13 -
Again the king sent the captain of a third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Eli’jah, and entreated him, "O man of God, I pray you, let my life, and the life of these fifty servants of yours, be precious in your sight.

Da 2:46 -
Then King Nebuchadnez’zar fell upon his face, and did homage to Daniel, and commanded that an offering and incense be offered up to him.

Mt 18:26 -
So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’

While Western moderns don’t usually don’t take this posture while entreating someone, last I knew there is no prohibition against it --legally or biblically. Many Protestants have a low and truncated theology (not to mention a limited historical perspective). Since the highest form of “worship” they know is praying and singing, ANY action of honor to a human that resembles that appears to them as worship.

 

[Christian4life]

slinky1882:

As a man who within the last year and a half proposed on one knee, I can certainly say I wasn’t begging but asking. Was I in a Loving and adoring (as in “I adore my children” not Adoration and Worship reserved for God) position??? Yes.

Remember too that there are three main parts to a human act, good or bad: the situation, the motive (i.e. intention) and the act itself. As UK Catholic Guy pointed out, one cannot judged solely by what is seen by the senses. How can you tel the difference between kneeling in Adoration of God and kneeling to propose??? The physiological aspect is the same, but the situation and motive are different. Hope this helps. Thanks and God Bless.

Because the whole act of kneeling is different. Even just traditionally, on one knee is to request a favor, but formally, respectfully - of someone in a higher position than yourself (like ie, a favor from the king or queen). It’s kind of a silly tradition, it always has a sense of drama to it nowadays.

Anywho, HOW could your heart be any different than a worshipful heart if you are down on both knees in front of someone as a show of adoration? What could possibly BE the difference of heart there? Cause to me, saying you can bow before someone seriously without worshipping them (worship meaning giving them credit due God) is like saying you can ride a bike without moving.

 

[MonicaC]

Christian4life:

Because the whole act of kneeling is different. Even just traditionally, on one knee is to request a favor, but formally, respectfully - of someone in a higher position than yourself (like ie, a favor from the king or queen). It’s kind of a silly tradition, it always has a sense of drama to it nowadays.

Anywho, HOW could your heart be any different than a worshipful heart if you are down on both knees in front of someone as a show of adoration? What could possibly BE the difference of heart there? Cause to me, saying you can bow before someone seriously without worshipping them (worship meaning giving them credit due God) is like saying you can ride a bike without moving.

I really think that there has been enough examples given on why people kneel and don’t worship. God knows my heart and all of our hearts, no man can try to asume what is on somones heart. You seem to believe that because in your mind when someone is kneeling down they must be also worshiping

HOW could your heart be any different than a worshipful heart if you are down on both knees in front of someone as a show of adoration?

I really think that you need to try to stop being so judgemental on others. I will quote Thomas A Kempis “We are all frail: but as to thee do not think that any one more frail than thyself.”

 

[MariaG]

posted by Christian4life
Because the whole act of kneeling is different. Even just traditionally, on one knee is to request a favor, but formally, respectfully - of someone in a higher position than yourself (like ie, a favor from the king or queen). It’s kind of a silly tradition, it always has a sense of drama to it nowadays.

So those guys who got down on two knees to ask their wife to marry them were worshipping their wife to be?

posted by Christian4life
Anywho, HOW could your heart be any different than a worshipful heart if you are down on both knees in front of someone as a show of adoration? What could possibly BE the difference of heart there? Cause to me, saying you can bow before someone seriously without worshipping them (worship meaning giving them credit due God) is like saying you can ride a bike without moving.

Good thing you aren’t the judge of my heart.

The post started with Scripture asking how a person can bow before a person when Scripture shows we shouldn’t bow down before others.

The response was and is that the Scripture quoted says do not bow down and **worship. **And other Scripture was cited showing that there are Biblical cases of people bowing down without worshipping.

So now you must resort to I feel, and I can’t see how instead of admit you have a mistaken interpretation of Scripture.

Sorry your faith in God is so small that an action that resembles another without the same intent can be the same. I will pray that you do not sin and worship others during sporting events when you raise your hands.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Christian4life:

Because the whole act of kneeling is different. Even just traditionally, on one knee is to request a favor, but formally, respectfully - of someone in a higher position than yourself (like ie, a favor from the king or queen). It’s kind of a silly tradition, it always has a sense of drama to it nowadays.

Anywho, HOW could your heart be any different than a worshipful heart if you are down on both knees in front of someone as a show of adoration? What could possibly BE the difference of heart there? Cause to me, saying you can bow before someone seriously without worshipping them (worship meaning giving them credit due God) is like saying you can ride a bike without moving.

This is ridiculous, and extremely sad. I’ll be praying for you. What a childish mentality.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

MariaG:

So those guys who got down on two knees to ask their wife to marry them were worshipping their wife to be?

Good thing you aren’t the judge of my heart.

The post started with Scripture asking how a person can bow before a person when Scripture shows we shouldn’t bow down before others.

The response was and is that the Scripture quoted says do not bow down and **worship. **And other Scripture was cited showing that there are Biblical cases of people bowing down without worshipping.

So now you must resort to I feel, and I can’t see how instead of admit you have a mistaken interpretation of Scripture.

Sorry your faith in God is so small that an action that resembles another without the same intent can be the same. I will pray that you do not sin and worship others during sporting events when you raise your hands.

I suspect that these people are only here to antagonize. How very un-Christian!

 

[MariaG]

yqbd,
:bible1: Act 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

:bible1:Rev 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
In both cases, people bowed down and worshipped, as in gave deference to someone or something other than God. In both cases, they were told to worship only God.

If they had simply knelt before Peter and thanked him, we would not be having this discussion.

So your contention is that when the angel said worship God, it includes every single definition of Worship? That every definition of worship became God’s province alone as opposed to the different definitions as the Catholic Church has (dulia, hyper-dulia etc.)?

That is a different understanding than Christian4life has. Christian4life believes a man can kiss a woman on the hand or get down on one knee to propose. Do you think these things are wrong and a form of worship?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Christian4life]

MariaG:

Sorry your faith in God is so small that an action that resembles another without the same intent can be the same. I will pray that you do not sin and worship others during sporting events when you raise your hands.

Ouch. Nice. Tell you what, I’ll judge the actions of others, you can continue to judge thier faith - something you obviously know little about.

 

[Christian4life]

Wow I have never seen anyone stretch the truth so much.

Honestly, we all can tell the difference between someone bowing to ask a favor (ie, hand in marriage) and someone bowing in adoration (ie, worship.) I really doubt you actually can’t.

When you see someone getting on one knee to ask hand in marriage, traditionally, that’s a sign of making a request. When you see someone bowing down on both knees before another person in an act of adoration because they think that person is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that is worship.

And I still don’t see how it could possibly be anything less.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The OP has an agenda (I always check other posts). I don’t claim infallibility (something he would deny that the pope ever has), but I suspect he or she has an agenda. They know full well that we don’t worship the Pope or our bishops or priests and that the various signs of respect that each of those offices are traditionally shown do not constitute worship. People like this are here to make a point, not learn anything. I honestly believe that the “rad trads,” sedevacanteists, and fundamentalists all take it in turn to annoy the rest of us, ie., “okay, it’s Tuesday, so you guys start a thread on why Pope Paul VI was a heretical Mason. Now, Wednesday’s open…hmmm, ya know, we haven’t had anything on worshipping Mary lately, let’s see what we can put together.” I would think that the best way to deal with them is to ignore them, but occasionally, some weeks even frequently, there are people who really want an answer. Oh well.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Christian4life:

Wow I have never seen anyone stretch the truth so much.

Honestly, we all can tell the difference between someone bowing to ask a favor (ie, hand in marriage) and someone bowing in adoration (ie, worship.) I really doubt you actually can’t.

When you see someone getting on one knee to ask hand in marriage, traditionally, that’s a sign of making a request. When you see someone bowing down on both knees before another person in an act of adoration because they think that person is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that is worship.

And I still don’t see how it could possibly be anything less.

Then you have the opportunity to broaden your education. Books are marvelous things.

 

[geezerbob]

Christian4life:

When you see someone bowing down on both knees before another person in an act of adoration because they think that person is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that is worship.

And I still don’t see how it could possibly be anything less.

Have you not read the other posts on this subject? Several people have pointed out that whether or not an act is “worship” depends on what is in the heart. That’s the way it is and I don’t see why you can’t understand that unless you just hate all things Catholic.

 

[Christian4life]

JKirkLVNV:

The OP has an agenda (I always check other posts). I don’t claim infallibility (something he would deny that the pope ever has), but I suspect he or she has an agenda. They know full well that we don’t worship the Pope or our bishops or priests and that the various signs of respect that each of those offices are traditionally shown do not constitute worship. People like this are here to make a point, not learn anything. I honestly believe that the “rad trads,” sedevacanteists, and fundamentalists all take it in turn to annoy the rest of us, ie., “okay, it’s Tuesday, so you guys start a thread on why Pope Paul VI was a heretical Mason. Now, Wednesday’s open…hmmm, ya know, we haven’t had anything on worshipping Mary lately, let’s see what we can put together.” I would think that the best way to deal with them is to ignore them, but occasionally, some weeks even frequently, there are people who really want an answer. Oh well.

Heh heh I have an agenda that’s funny. Is that just something you say when your arguments don’t make any sense? Actually I came here originally to find out what you peoples actually think and see if I wanted to become a Catholic.

I actually did read what ya’ll wrote. It just doesn’t make much sense to me to look at it from your position when if you’re wrong you are idol worshipping, and if you’re right I’m still not exactly missing out on anything.

BTW I’m not a troll. And if you HAD actually read any of my other posts you’d know that.

 

[scylla]

People judge from outside appearances, we can only see the outside and many times we are guilty of judging people by what we see.
God can see the heart, He knows the intention, He knows the heart. As a Catholic I know that, as we say in Mass, “all glory and honor is yours almighty Father forever and ever”.
Catholics do not worship each other, but do understand that our Church preaches love. Love includes respect for one another and in this we bow, not in worship but in respect and love. As other people have pointed out this is displayed in other cultures, and very prominantly in the Japanese culture.
Someone said something to the effect of how can you do the act without worshipping, worshipping is intended with the heart and mind. If I am on my knees thinking about, imagining sinning with the opposite sex am I worshipping God? Regardless of what people like Jack Chick say, Catholics only worship God.

The highest form of worship for Catholics is the Mass, we do worship in others ways, but this is the absolute. If you ever attend one you will see it is all focused on God. Personally I have never had a more personal relationship with God except in the Catholic Church. I might have sang and prayed at other Churches, but never had I like I do now such a deep, fulfilling relationship with God in the Catholic Church.

 

[deb1]

Christian4life:

Wow I have never seen anyone stretch the truth so much.

Honestly, we all can tell the difference between someone bowing to ask a favor (ie, hand in marriage) and someone bowing in adoration (ie, worship.) I really doubt you actually can’t.

.

So, you are basically saying that Protestants can tell the difference between worship and respect but somehow Catholics can’t. Am I reading your post correctly?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Christian4life:

Heh heh I have an agenda that’s funny. Is that just something you say when your arguments don’t make any sense? Actually I came here originally to find out what you peoples actually think and see if I wanted to become a Catholic.

I actually did read what ya’ll wrote. It just doesn’t make much sense to me to look at it from your position when if you’re wrong you are idol worshipping, and if you’re right I’m still not exactly missing out on anything.

BTW I’m not a troll. And if you HAD actually read any of my other posts you’d know that.

In the post to which you were responding, I was refering more to the original poster. Look, we’re not the Mormons or the Masons. We’re not secret societies. The teachings of our Church are open and available to the scrutinty of the entire world. We know Who we worship and who we don’t. You can either take our word for it or assume that we’re lying and leave us to our reprobation. Either way, it doesn’t change the facts of the matter. To say,“Well, they’re really worshipping the Pope” is to engage in something akin to a conspiracy theory.

 

[PJR]

Aren’t we really giving respect to the “office” of pope, considering that he is the vicar of Christ and we as Catholics believe he holds the keys of Peter and we will look to him, in this office, as the interpreter of truth.

It sounds like they know this already. They are just arguing against the papacy. Same old argument.

If they are ever up in front of a judge, they better stand when he enters and call him “your honor.”

 

[Christian4life]

deb1:

So, you are basically saying that Protestants can tell the difference between worship and respect but somehow Catholics can’t. Am I reading your post correctly?

Last time I checked, bowing was considered a form of worship, not respect by my culture. So I guess if it’s part of your culture, that’s different. But being an American Catholic, if you bowed before the priest, I guess I’m thinking like fully on the ground. If you mean bow as in halfway like a butler would bow to his master, that’s different too.

But full on the ground bowing is what we’re talking about isn’t it?

 

[Christian4life]

JKirkLVNV:

In the post to which you were responding, I was refering more to the original poster. Look, we’re not the Mormons or the Masons. We’re not secret societies. The teachings of our Church are open and available to the scrutinty of the entire world. We know Who we worship and who we don’t. You can either take our word for it or assume that we’re lying and leave us to our reprobation. Either way, it doesn’t change the facts of the matter. To say,“Well, they’re really worshipping the Pope” is to engage in something akin to a conspiracy theory.

Lol I’m not saying you worship the Pope, as a rule.

I don’t have a problem with giving special reverence to the Pope as he is after all your head guy. I get that. Personally I respect the Pope as well, currently. I’m just saying some people may take it a bit too far and give him more reverence than he’s due.