Bowing instead of kneeling?

[AltarMan]

AJV:

Confused? Don’t think thats possible. He WAS Master of Ceremonies-under Pope Pius XII no less. I see what you mean with regard to the altar but I feel he’s talking about the altar in general. And what about the statement from the low mass guide?

Some more sources for thought:

The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia on the Altar Crucifix says

Maybe he’s senile? What is he, 98?

 

[AltarMan]

Br. Rich SFO:

Well I do not find it in the GIRM. But then would not necessarly expect to. However it is a common practice here even before the new instruction, to bow when passing in front of a Crucifix or when a processional crucifix passes by.

So? There are all sorts of “common practices.” A big “common practice” at my parish is to do a head-bob/coutesy to the crucifix and then walk right by the tabernacle…

We have people who bow to the ambo here (it’s the “altar of the word” after all.)

We have people who bow to the Book of Gospels.

We have people who genuflect to a reproduction of the Tilma of Guadalupe.

The list goes on…

 

[thistle]

puzzleannie:

your citation did not carry over, the comment Msgr made was “an altar without a cross has no right to a bow or genuflexion”

still true, there must be a crucifix in proximity to the altar clearly displayed and visible during Mass, and if it is properly positioned a bow to the altar and crucifix would be the same motion. (assuming this is a Church where the tabernacle is in a side chapel etc.)

Does a giant crucifix (about 10 feet tall) hanging from the ceiling of the centre of the church count as one being visible and near the altar. Its the only one I can see in our local church.

 

[AltarMan]

totustuusmaria:

It has to do with the proper signs of reverence. This is how one should respond to different circumstances:

1. If Jesus is exposed, have both knees touch the ground before you get up.
2. If Jesus is in the tabernacle, genuflect (one knee touching the gound) to the tablernacle
3. If you pass an altar, make a profound bow (at the waist)
   4) If you pass a crucifix, or someone says the names of Jesus **or Mary make a simple bow (at the kneck).
   **
   If Jesus is int he tabernacle and people don’t genuflect you know something’s wrong with the ethos. At the same time, I see the opposite problem all the time. Jesus isn’t in the tabernacle, the tabernacle is empty or in a side-chapel–instead of making a profound bow (to honor the altar) people genuflect anyway.

That caused me as a freshmen at Franciscan University of Steubenville to compose a little saw to the tone of one of those Brittish Anthems…

“Sing hail! Sing hail! to Catholic ha-a-bit!
We will genuflect to no-o-thing!”

Oh, one more thing, there is no requirement to genuflect if you can’t actually see the tabernacle, even if you know it’s there.

I have never seen where the Church instructs this. It’s certainly not wrong NOT to do either of these.

 

[msproule]

This post addresses a couple of the questions that have been raised.

From the GIRM:
274. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.
**275. a. A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and **at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated. **
So, there is at least one time during the year (Triduum) during which we are to genuflect to the Crucifix. Also, we are instructed to always bow our heads when the name of the Blessed Mother is mentioned.

**

 

[Al_Masetti]

AltarMan:

So? There are all sorts of “common practices.” A big “common practice” at my parish is to do a head-bob/coutesy to the crucifix and then walk right by the tabernacle…

We have people who bow to the ambo here (it’s the “altar of the word” after all.)

We have people who bow to the Book of Gospels.

We have people who genuflect to a reproduction of the Tilma of Guadalupe.

The list goes on…

I wonder if they bow when walking past a bookstore.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

AltarMan:

So? There are all sorts of “common practices.” A big “common practice” at my parish is to do a head-bob/coutesy to the crucifix and then walk right by the tabernacle…

We have people who bow to the ambo here (it’s the “altar of the word” after all.)

We have people who bow to the Book of Gospels.

We have people who genuflect to a reproduction of the Tilma of Guadalupe.

The list goes on…

What comes to my mind are the words of St. Francis to the Brothers. Remember to bow low body and soul whenever you see the form of a cross. Because by thy holy cross Christ has redeemed the world!

 

[John_Lilburne]

TennMark38016:

I have noticed that many people quickly bow before sitting at their pew. At first I thought it was just older people with back/knee problems but young folks do it also. Is this acceptable? I was taught at RCIA that when we enter the sanctuary we should always genuflect and the knee should touch the floor.

Perhaps you are confused about what the sanctuary is. It is the part of the church with the altar – where the priest and ministers go.

According to the Ceremonial of Bishops, an official liturgical book published in Latin as Ceremoniale Episcoporum in 1984:

“72. A deep bow is made to the altar by all who enter the sanctuary (chancel), leave it, or pass before the altar.” (Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 37).

The official liturgical books do not require people to genuflect before sitting in their pew. What the Ceremonial of Bishops says is:

"71. No one who enters a church should fail to adore the blessed sacrament, either by visiting the blessed sacrament chapel or at least by genuflecting.
“Similarly, those who pass before the blessed sacrament genuflect, except when they are walking in procession.”

But the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal n. 274 has changed this with:

"If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.

“Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.”

Another example of when catholics do bow to a crucifix is when incense is used. From Ceremonial of Bishops:

“91. Before and after an incensation, a profound bow is made to the person or object that is incensed, except in the case of the incensation of the altar and the gifts for the eucharistic sacrifice.” So before and after incensing the crucifix the person with the thurible bows to it.

It is incorrect to say (as totustuusmaria wrote above):

“1) If Jesus is exposed, have both knees touch the ground before you get up.”

The instructions in the official liturgical book are:

“84. Genflection in the presence of the blessed sacrament, whether reserved in the tabernacle or exposed for public adoration, is on one knee.”

(From the 1973 Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass, as given in Documents on the Liturgy 1963 - 1979, Liturgical Press, 1982, ISBN 0-8146-1281-4, page 697).

 

[AltarMan]

msproule:

This post addresses a couple of the questions that have been raised.

From the GIRM:
274. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.
275. a. A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and **at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated. **
So, there is at least one time during the year (Triduum) during which we are to genuflect to the Crucifix. Also, we are instructed to always bow our heads when the name of the Blessed Mother is mentioned.

To the BARE CROSS, not to a crucifix.

Thanks for the correction on Mother Mary.

 

[AJV]

AltarMan:

Maybe he’s senile? What is he, 98?

The interview was in 1960

 

[AJV]

Perhaps bowing to the crucifix has been rescinded-I don’t know. I think it was in 1962 or so that priests were instructed not to face the crucifix and bow at the Holy Name of Jesus at the collect, post communion, etc.

Do such things(bowing to the crucifix) perhaps carry force of custom?

 

[msproule]

AltarMan:

To the BARE CROSS, not to a crucifix.

I believe you are mistaken. The GIRM never used the word “crucifix”. In contrast, there are at least 19 references to the “cross” used in this context, which can mean only the Crucifix, since it is a requirement that a figure of Christ crucified be present upon the cross used for Holy Mass:
308. There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.
Furthermore, the purple veil is removed on Good Friday so the only thing to which the GIRM could be referring is the Crucifix.

 

[Marquette]

Help!!! I’m still in RCAI, I’ve only gone to this particular Catholic church two times so far. As I said above, my husband “still” genuflects, so I do too. I see people bow. I see people genuflect. I see people do nothing. WHAT’S A PERSON TO DO!!! Then to top it all off, in my Catholicism for Dummies book, it says if you genuflect, you should also cross yourself at the same time. It’s enough to send me packing back to my protestant church where I just walked in and sat down.

The RCIA priest said our church keeps the communiony stuff that is already the body and blood (I don’t know all the Catholic terms yet) in the side chapel. The church has a crucifix in front. It seems he said to bow and I would take it you are bowing in honor of what the crucifix REPRESENTS, not to the crucifix itself. But since my husband was genuflecting, I felt stupid just bowing. And I can’t do it right anyway as I have bad knees. Part of me says God is in heaven laughing at this particular thread. Aren’t these all man-made rules and regs? I want to be respectful within the church, but how is a still-seeking person to know what to do when the church’s own parishoners don’t seem to agree.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

 

[AltarMan]

msproule:

I believe you are mistaken. The GIRM never used the word “crucifix”. In contrast, there are at least 19 references to the “cross” used in this context, which can mean only the Crucifix, since it is a requirement that a figure of Christ crucified be present upon the cross used for Holy Mass:
308. There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.
Furthermore, the purple veil is removed on Good Friday so the only thing to which the GIRM could be referring is the Crucifix.

Nix. That bare cross (sans corpus) is different from a crucifix (with corpus.)

 

[AltarMan]

Marquette:

Help!!! I’m still in RCAI, I’ve only gone to this particular Catholic church two times so far. As I said above, my husband “still” genuflects, so I do too. I see people bow. I see people genuflect. I see people do nothing. WHAT’S A PERSON TO DO!!! Then to top it all off, in my Catholicism for Dummies book, it says if you genuflect, you should also cross yourself at the same time. It’s enough to send me packing back to my protestant church where I just walked in and sat down.

The RCIA priest said our church keeps the communiony stuff that is already the body and blood (I don’t know all the Catholic terms yet) in the side chapel. The church has a crucifix in front. It seems he said to bow and I would take it you are bowing in honor of what the crucifix REPRESENTS, not to the crucifix itself. But since my husband was genuflecting, I felt stupid just bowing. And I can’t do it right anyway as I have bad knees. Part of me says God is in heaven laughing at this particular thread. Aren’t these all man-made rules and regs? I want to be respectful within the church, but how is a still-seeking person to know what to do when the church’s own parishoners don’t seem to agree.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

This isn’t rocket science.

Profound bow (at the waist) to the altar.

Genuflect on right knee in front of tabernacle that holds the reposed Blessed Sacrament (look for a nearby burning lamp with a red shade)

Genuflect on both knees if the Blessed Sacrament is exposed (in a monstrance for example during Eucharistic adoration.)

Catholics are notoriously (at least since the implementation of Vatican II) poorly catechized. Don’t use that as an excuse, and certainly don’t use the excuse of “man-made rules and regs?” to discount what the Church teaches. That smacks strongly of Protestantism.

 

[Marquette]

I just re-read all the posts above and I still am not sure what to do since they are not all in agreement. I will ask the priest tomorrow night at RCIA. If my above comment smacked of protestantism, it’s because I still am protestant and have been all my life (I’m almost 59). There is so much to learn about Catholicism. Besides RCIA, I’m reading Catholicism for Dummies, I watch EWTN ALL the time, and have read/am reading books about Catholicism. I think people who have been Catholic their whole life don’t realize how much there is to learn for someone coming out of protestantism. It’s mind boggling.

 

[msproule]

AltarMan:

Nix. That bare cross (sans corpus) is different from a crucifix (with corpus.)

Please provide a reference that supports this assertion. I am having a difficult time understanding how you reach this conclusion. Is the clarification found in the original (un-translated) GIRM text? Help me out here…Thanks!

 

[TennMark38016]

Wow! Thanks for all of the responses. Since I started this fire, let me add some detail. Some details about my parish:

The tabranacle is to the right of the altar. It is clearly visible and the candle was lit.
This is a cathedral, mother church of the diocese.

 

[msproule]

AltarMan:

To the BARE CROSS, not to a crucifix.

msproule:

Please provide a reference that supports this assertion. I am having a difficult time understanding how you reach this conclusion. Is the clarification found in the original (un-translated) GIRM text? Help me out here…Thanks!

I have seen a bare cross draped in a purple veil around Easter but not in every parish I have visited. In those parishes that did have one, I cannot recall anybody bowing to it.

Can somebody provide some clarification? Thanks in advance!

 

[kleary]

Tedster:

Maybe he should also explain that this is a no no. The tabernacle should be in the sanctuary directly behind the altar (from our point of view). If the tabernacle is not in the sanctuary , then you would NOT geneflect (and I’m not sure you would even bow), as this is an act of adoration reserved for God and He is not there to adore!

Belonging to a TLM Mission church in our diocese the directives for us are:

If Blessed Sacrament is reserved in the Tabernacle all are to genuflect before it whenever passing.

If the Blessed Sacrament is not in the Tabernacle, such as the period from Holy Thursday after the Mass of the Lord’s Supper until after the Easter Vigil, lay people are to genuflect before the crucifix that is on or on the reredos behind the altar or wall, only the priest, deacon and sub-deacon are to bow.

Also, the act of genuflecting is not just reserved for the adoration of God. One would do this “traditionally” on the right knee as usual when meeting a bishop or the Pope. Also with the full prostration, it can be done without meaning it in adoration of God such as at the Good Friday liturgy when the priest prostrates himself before the crucifix.

Ken