Bowing/Kneeling during the Nicene Creed

[Cat]

I’m going to propose a rather mundane and non-spiritual reason why so many people don’t bow during the Nicene Creed.

It’s written on the pew card (cheat sheet) of the new translation, which many of us still refer to. HOWEVER–the print on that card is so teeny, and the part about bowing is in a light red–I honestly think that many people miss this entirely and don’t realize that they should be bowing. They know the new translation well enough that they don’t have to glue themselves to the pew card, so they miss the “bowing” instruction.

In our Family Mass, which is held in the parish school gym, the Creed is read from a giant signboard that is permanently mounted on the wall of the gym. The instruction to bow during the incarnation phrase is NOT on this signboard. So I’m pretty certain that a lot of the people in the Family Mass have no idea that they are supposed to bow during the Creed.

Our priests, deacons, and the altar servers all bow during the Creed. Some of the people in the pews bow, too. My husband and I bow because we were taught to do so during our RCIA classes eight years ago.

But again, many people have no idea that EVERYONE is supposed to bow. They probably think that this is a personal choice, just like touching your lips after you do the Sign of the Cross. (My husband and I don’t do this.)

So, IMO, this is a matter for the parish priest(s). They need to instruct the people. I’m guessing that our priests recognize that many people are missing the bow, and that at some future date, they will make the announcement that everyone is supposed to be bowing. They’re probably just picking the best time to make this announcement. I know that some people believe that the announcement should be made often and on a regular basis, and I can go along with this. However, we are not parish priests. I think we need to trust that Father knows best, and will take care of his flock at the time that is best. We need to trust that if the Holy Spirit is displeased, He will communicate to Father the need to instruct the people.

I can see mentioning this to Father–perhaps the Holy Spirit is prompting Father through a layperson. But I can’t see making a huge deal out of this.

I can also see families in the parish educating themselves, but I don’t expect all families to do this.

 

[ilySHJ]

Friend,

Remember that the new order of the Roman Missal wasn’t exactly before everyone’s eyes from 1973-2011. Most people went with a missalette that had the bare readings for the days of the week. Everyone did what the priest did.

Since priestly formation was lackluster for a period of about 20 years (especially in the US, Canada, and the UK), it’s easy to see why undereducated priests wanted to tone down such ‘empty gestures’ as not taking place in the heart, but being an outward show. There is some merit to the criticism, for the first liturgical posture we should have is a heart that is humbled before Christ our God, and if it’s just outward acts it is purely meaningless puffs of smoke.

Whatever the merit of the postures, there is no excuse not to use them now. Lay-people actually have the rubric in front of them on the cards since last Advent. Most just didn’t know it was there, I imagine. Out of sheer inertia (or stubbornness, in our more liberal brethren) they will just forget to do it, or they’ll be nervous in case the padre will look at them askance.

The instruction to bow is not on our cards. That was my objection when these cards were chosen. It’s in the missalette – but most use the cards, and this year the missalette (OCP) left out the special reminder to genuflect at Christmas.

No one at all genuflected

On a typical Sunday, there are fewer than six scattered bows. In the past our priests erroneously taught that we never bow and never kneel, something about being creatures in the image and likeness of God and better able to worship in our hearts. Subsequent priests would rather let it go than argue.

Our current pastor hasn’t genuflected at Christmas for three years in a row. He’s fresh from the seminary, and for the first few years he did. Sometimes he bows, sometimes he doesn’t. Maybe it’s not in the big red missal because he seems a bit unsure and looks to see what we’re doing.

Wow, wish I could go to the parishes you all go to. Maybe it is just me and the specific Churches I have been to…

God bless.

-Paul

Me, too! It would be beautiful!

 

[MissRose73]

Every Ordinary Form parish I’ve been to over the past year since the new translation either has pew cards or projects responses. During the Creed, we are asked to bow during the Incarnation part, and I do not pay attention to how many do so around me. When I go to the EF Mass, the norm is the genuflection and the bow is done more by those who cannot genuflect for a health reason or old age.

 

[corsair]

Sadly, because of the inconsistancies in the application of the rubrics of the OF, I have thrown in the “towel” and gone over to the EF exclusively.

 

[PJD1987]

Sadly, because of the inconsistancies in the application of the rubrics of the OF, I have thrown in the “towel” and gone over to the EF exclusively.

I’m strongly considering doing that as well.

I’m also very happy this thread re-opened after 6 months being dormant! lol! I’m thinking it must be because of Christmas Masses that people were reminded of this topic! I was too actually, and I had forgotten I made this thread until it popped up on the main page!

God bless everyone! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!

-Paul

 

[anp1215]

I’ve noticed that in my parish(es) most do not bow. Some people bow their head, but I rarely see anyone actually bow their body. Granted, it’s hard to see when you’re bowing. I can only see the people around me out of the corners of my eyes. I can’t see if the priests are doing it.

I actually forgot about kneeling for the Incarnation on Christmas, since it only happens once a year. I think the priest may have remembered at the last minute or something, because it was kind of awkward the way he did it. We said the Incarnation lines, I bowed, not even thinking to kneel, then he said, “Let us genuflect in respect for the Incarnation” or something, so I and some people around me did a genuflection, but the priest actually kneeled and stayed kneeling. So, I kneeled, and then we recited the Incarnation lines again. It was a little…messy.

 

[Elizium23]

At all Christmas Masses (including those in the Octave of Christmas), our priests leave the sedellia, walk to the front of the altar (between the congregation and the altar), face the altar/tabernacle/crucifix, and kneel at the Incarnatus. You can’t miss it!

During the rest of the year, they bow. You can tell they are bowing because they are no longer facing the standing microphone and their voice diminishes greatly.

Genuflection is only to be done on December 25, not every day of the octave, according to the Notitiae response.

 

[PJD1987]

Here is a link stating that we should kneel on BOTH the Annunciation and on Christmas, I always thought it was both, has that changed?

In any case, link here:

old.usccb.org/romanmissal/resources-bulletins3.shtml

It’ll be in the 8th paragraph down.

God bless!

-Paul

 

[JackieMom]

Our church does not have kneelers, so there is no kneeling of any kind, ever. We have chairs instead of pews, so there is no kneeling before entering your row, either. We only use the Apostle’s creed, never the Nicene. No confietor. No bowing - profound or otherwise, ever. Not on Christmas, either.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Our church does not have kneelers, so there is no kneeling of any kind, ever. We have chairs instead of pews, so there is no kneeling before entering your row, either. We only use the Apostle’s creed, never the Nicene. No confietor. No bowing - profound or otherwise, ever. Not on Christmas, either.

Wow. We are supposed to kneel regardless of if there are kneelers or not.

 

[superamazingman]

Our church does not have kneelers, so there is no kneeling of any kind, ever. We have chairs instead of pews, so there is no kneeling before entering your row, either. We only use the Apostle’s creed, never the Nicene. No confietor. No bowing - profound or otherwise, ever. Not on Christmas, either.

From the Vatican:
21. QUERY 3: In some places kneelers have been taken out of the churches. Thus, the people can only stand or sit and this detracts from the reverence and adoration due to the Eucharist.

REPLY: The appointments of a place of worship have some relationship to the customs of the particular locale. For example, in the East there are carpets; in the Roman basilicas, only since modern times, there are usually chairs without kneelers, so as to accommodate large crowds. There is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this may be.

 

[JackieMom]

From the Vatican:
21. QUERY 3: In some places kneelers have been taken out of the churches. Thus, the people can only stand or sit and this detracts from the reverence and adoration due to the Eucharist.

REPLY: The appointments of a place of worship have some relationship to the customs of the particular locale. For example, in the East there are carpets; in the Roman basilicas, only since modern times, there are usually chairs without kneelers, so as to accommodate large crowds. There is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this may be.

It has nothing to do with local culture. I’m in suburban California. The floors are of rough hewn stone. Some could kneel, but older, pregnant, arthritic, overweight, etc. people would have a really hard time. Not to mention… One would be the only parishioner kneeling, so there is lots of pressure not to “stand out” as trying to appear more pious than the others.

 

[JackieMom]

Wow. We are supposed to kneel regardless of if there are kneelers or not.

I have not seen anyone kneel at Mass in this parish for 15 years. It has simply been dispensed with entirely.

 

[superamazingman]

It has nothing to do with local culture. I’m in suburban California. The floors are of rough hewn stone. Some could kneel, but older, pregnant, arthritic, overweight, etc. people would have a really hard time. Not to mention… One would be the only parishioner kneeling, so there is lots of pressure not to “stand out” as trying to appear more pious than the others.

No one said it had to do with local culture. That’s just one of the many reasons that there might not be kneelers.

You mention older folks or pregnant moms who might not be able to kneel. That’s fine! they aren’t required to kneel. But those who are physically able aught to be kneeling, whether that causes them to stand out or not. It shouldn’t be anything new: when did christians really fit in?

 

[superamazingman]

I have not seen anyone kneel at Mass in this parish for 15 years. It has simply been dispensed with entirely.

That doesn’t mean it’s right.

I’ve seen things done wrong in other areas for far longer than that, like roe vs wade for the last 40.

 

[maltmom]

I do a profound bow. I am unable to genuflect due to a back problem. One time I bowed down so far that my reading glasses fell off. Good thing I was in the 2nd row. I was able to grab them on my way up.

 

[GraceUnderFire]

Wow. We are supposed to kneel regardless of if there are kneelers or not.

Amen.

Even when there’s a Eucharistic procession outside and we have benediction, some people kneel on the grass. Nothing is off limits when it comes to showing full and total adoration and reverence to our Lord.

 

[JackieMom]

That doesn’t mean it’s right.

I’ve seen things done wrong in other areas for far longer than that, like roe vs wade for the last 40.

Well, in a church full of 700 people, to be the only one kneeling would be a tough and conspicuous spot to be in, not to mention the fact that since it aimply does not happen - most people probably don’t realize it’s a problem. They follow the lead of the priest and assume it’s fine. I’m not arguing that it’s ideal or even okay - I’d prefer the traditional setup. But, it is what it is. No kneelers, chairs crammed together in “the round”, cold stone floors and probably not much space to kneel even if an average sized person wanted to. The parish has been functioning this way for about 20 years and priests are ordained in the church. I’d asume if there really were an abuse occurring by not facilitating kneeling, it would have been addressed by now. Of course, anything’s possible! This is the same parish that has 20 people make a confession every month, but has about 698 accept communion at each Mass. So, it can’t be that shocking

 

[JackieMom]

That doesn’t mean it’s right.

I’ve seen things done wrong in other areas for far longer than that, like roe vs wade for the last 40.

Right, but… Roe v Wade isn’t sanctioned by any Catholic parish/organization.

 

[sw85]

2 Questions, very simple:

1. I hope this is a unique thing to me, but I fear it is not. I have been to several different Churches in my life, at none of them did the Priest or the congregation bow en masse in reverence to the Incarnation, despite it being in the Missalette, nor did the Priest ever point out that we should. Why has this fallen by the wayside?
2. Same thing for kneeling during the Creed for the Annunciation and Christmas. It never happens, even though it should. Again, why?

I realize some Priests are more orthodox/traditional than others, but I feel like this is almost everywhere, not just an isolated happenstance for the Churches I have gone to. Have ALL priests really just let this practice largely slip into irrelevance without a second thought?

God bless.

-Paul

I’ve noticed the proportion seems to be increasing in my area, although the majority still don’t. I think it’s just a self-conscious thing. The book says to do it, but no one does it, no one knows why it ought to be done, the priest never talks about it, etc. Since no one makes a big deal out of it… well, it’s just not a big deal.

Recently I had the opportunity to go to a very lovely church about 50 miles away, where the priest follows the rubrics exactly, bowing his head at every mention of the name of Jesus, Mary, or the three divine persons. It’s lovely. I’ve also noticed more people there bow at the Incarnatus. Seems to be the case that the people follow the priest’s example. When the priest prays reverently, so do the people. I guess that’s how it should be.