Bowing to Altar or Tabernacle?

[una_fides]

I think that you are being harsh, the poster was not talking about the theology of the real presence but about customs associated with the real presence.

At the same time I would ask ProVobis if he genuflects to the tabernacle when it is empty on Good Friday.

Perhaps I misunderstood ProVobis when he said

The Real Presence of Christ comes to us in a different and special way.

I took that to mean that he thought of the Real Presence of Christ in some other sort of personal encounter rather than how the Church explains that this terminology applies to our Lord Present in the Holy Eucharist–Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. ProVobis can clarify what he meant by that statement if he would like, but to me it seemed vague to say the least.

 

[una_fides]

Didn’t say that. I do believe in the Real Presence, but I’m only saying there is a distinction. You are the one who implied the tabernacle without the Real Presence of Christ is of little value.

I think you read such an implication into my post, when it was most certainly not there. I did not say that the tabernacle itself is of little value, but it is most certainly not an object to be adored with the same degree of veneration as we give to God himself. The Church teaches that you Genuflect to God as a sign of adoration to his divinity. When Christ is not in the tabernacle, you are adoring the tabernacle itself as if it were God himself, when in reality it is a place where God is stored under the appearance of bread. If you were to fashion yourself a tabernacle and keep it in your home and genuflect to it, you would be committing idolatry. A tabernacle without the Blessed Sacrament being reserved inside is not an object of such veneration, any more than the Arc of the Covenant would have been without God’s presence being inside. It is contrary to Church teaching and practice to genuflect to an empty tabernacle.

 

[una_fides]

I just want to add something else by saying that kneeling is not always intended as a sign of worship. For example during the Veneration of the Cross usually people kneel down and kiss the feet of the corpus or the bottom of the cross.

Actually its not “Veneration of the Cross”; it’s the “Adoration of the Cross,” and it is my understanding that you are in fact showing the same reverence to the Cross itself as you would to Christ. The GIRM states the following: 274. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.

(See this post made earlier in this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6973242&postcount=10)
Also see newadvent.org/summa/4025.htm#article4 from the Summa. This was what I posted about earlier that I am having difficulty understanding.

For ProVobis, notice how the GIRM says that genuflections are “reserved” for the Blessed Sacrament. There are no references to the tabernacle in the instruction to the Missal, so unless you can show me from the rubric for the Traditional Mass where it might say that you genuflect to an empty tabernacle (good luck), then I think you should really concede on this point. I don’t doubt your sincere motives, but I just think that they may be slightly misplaced. If I’m wrong, please cite an authoritative source, and I will modify my position.

 

[Cristiano]

Actually its not “Veneration of the Cross”; it’s the “Adoration of the Cross,” and it is my understanding that you are in fact showing the same reverence to the Cross itself as you would to Christ. The GIRM states the following: 274. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.

(See this post made earlier in this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6973242&postcount=10)
Also see newadvent.org/summa/4025.htm#article4 from the Summa. This was what I posted about earlier that I am having difficulty understanding.

For ProVobis, notice how the GIRM says that genuflections are “reserved” for the Blessed Sacrament. There are no references to the tabernacle in the instruction to the Missal, so unless you can show me from the rubric for the Traditional Mass where it might say that you genuflect to an empty tabernacle (good luck), then I think you should really concede on this point. I don’t doubt your sincere motives, but I just think that they may be slightly misplaced. If I’m wrong, please cite an authoritative source, and I will modify my position.

I am not sure that St . Thomas argument is a Church Doctrine. For now I take your comment as valid and I need to look more into it because of my ignorance. However going to the Summa look at the case of objection #2 where he cannot really address it and he talks about reverence in his answer.

 

[ProVobis]

Notice how the GIRM says that genuflections are “reserved” for the Blessed Sacrament.

I’m not sure the GIRM applies in the EF.

But I do know that traditionally one genuflects on BOTH knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

 

[Aramis]

I’m not sure the GIRM applies in the EF.

But I do know that traditionally one genuflects on BOTH knees when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

At present, it is supposed to retain the 1962 edition of the GIRM.

 

[ProVobis]

At present, it is supposed to retain the 1962 edition of the GIRM.

Thanks. Outside of Mass, however, we’re going to have to sort out the differences somehow, especially in parishes where both the EF and OF are offered.

 

[una_fides]

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/documentText/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/175/Start/1.

Notice it says that a genuflection is made toward the tabernacle IF Christ is present therein.

 

[lisanne75]

I am so glad this topic is being discussed, because these are questions that I’ve been wondering about for some time. At my church, the tabernacle is behind the altar ~ maybe even slightly to the left. Everyone genuflects when they enter a church pew, and anyone passing by the altar bows (with the body). When a lector gets up to do the readings, he/she bows to the altar first, reads, and then bows again upon exit. I always wondered what people were genuflecting to before they would sit in a pew. Is it OK for a non-Catholic to genuflect before sitting down on a pew? We have a large crucifix up high beyond the altar, and so I figured that by genuflecting I was paying honor to the altar, the tabernacle, and the crucifix all together.

 

[ProVobis]

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/documentText/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/175/Start/1.

Notice it says that a genuflection is made toward the tabernacle IF Christ is present therein.

Again, that’s for the 1970 Missal. It’s right on top of the page.

 

[melekali]

Just to clarify…

Is it better to bow to the alter or the tabernacle when approaching or moving past.

It seems kind of funny to bow to the altar in my opinion?

Bow to the altar, genuflect to Christ’s sacramental presence in the tabernacle. Bowing to the altar on which the sacrifice of the Mass takes place makes sense for that reason alone, but there is also a relic in every Catholic altar.

 

[FaithG]

Okay, this question is obviously coming from a non-Catholic, but after all, anonymity breeds confidence. What is genuflecting? Do you mean getting down on one knee? I see most Catholics do that every time they enter church, before sitting down, either that or cross themselves while bowing.

F

 

[Lujack]

Okay, this question is obviously coming from a non-Catholic, but after all, anonymity breeds confidence. What is genuflecting? Do you mean getting down on one knee? I see most Catholics do that every time they enter church, before sitting down, either that or cross themselves while bowing.

F

Yes, genuflecting is the one knee+Sign of the Cross. I was always taught that you genuflect when you come in and when you leave.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, genuflecting is the one knee+Sign of the Cross. I was always taught that you genuflect when you come in and when you leave.

I forgot about the sign of the cross. We also were taught to genuflect when crossing the middle aisle as well.

 

[JReducation]

JR gave a great explanation of the history. I am wondering if you have any sources you could cite for further reading on that subject.

The only thing that I would question is whether it would be a sin if one did knowingly genuflect to the altar or only bowed to the tabernacle. Since the GIRM explains the Church’s teaching that genuflecting is a sign of adoration, if one were to then knowingly genuflect to the altar then he would be adoring the altar, which is clearly wrong just as it would be to genuflect to a priest. Similarly if one not out of necessity bowed to the tabernacle rather than genuflecting just because he didn’t feel like it and did know of the Church’s law and was thereby unwilling to adore Christ in the tabernacle (perhaps because of disbelief) then that too would be a sin. If the person does not know, which most people do not, then he would be acting improperly and should be instructed but would not personally be guilty of sin.

One thing I’ve been wrestling with lately is that we actually adore the Cross itself with the type of adoration reserved to God. I’ve read Aquinas on this topic and I’m still left scratching my head and wondering how it seems almost like idolatry in a sense since the Cross itself is just a symbol. I realize that by venerating the Cross we are venerating Christ who became united to the Cross and as it is like his throne, but I still don’t see how we worship it with the same degree of adoration as Christ himself (latria). I am a convert from Protestantism so I dont know if this could just be a carry over of some of their thinking for me. I am hoping someone can help shed some light for me on this point. Thanks.

I don’t know of any one particular book that has all of what I said. A lot of what we learn during formation and in the seminary comes from many sources. You get a little here and a little there. Some of it comes from history classes, other pieces from spirituality courses, and others from classes on liturgy.

As to your question re: genuflecting to the altar. For something to be a sin the matter must be grave. I don’t believe that this constitutes grave matter. I guess that anyone can become adolatrous and that certainly is very grave. But the average Catholic is not idolotrous. He is a creature of habit, even bad ones or impractical one.

In addition, you must know that the matter is grave. Knowing is not just having read the rules or hearing about it. In moral theology, to know means to believe that it is a sin. If you believe that something is a sin and you choose to do it, then you’re guilty of sin.

Finally, you must be free to choose not to do it. I guess no one holds a gun to your head to genuflect. The freedom question is N/A here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Monty61]

Okay, this question is obviously coming from a non-Catholic, but after all, anonymity breeds confidence. What is genuflecting? Do you mean getting down on one knee? I see most Catholics do that every time they enter church, before sitting down, either that or cross themselves while bowing.

F

I don’t speak Latin, but from attending the Latin Good Friday liturgy, i believe “genuflect” comes from Latin, “flecta genua” which I gather, means something along the lines of “bend the knee.” So when you genuflect, you go down on 1 knee (I was taught the right knee) then get back up. I was not taught that you had to cross yourself at the same time. Some people do though. Some people also kiss their hand after they cross themselves while genuflecting.

People who are not physically capable of going down on their knee and getting right back up are not expected to do it.

 

[una_fides]

Again, that’s for the 1970 Missal. It’s right on top of the page.

Yup you are correct that link was for the new missal. I was on my iphone and didn’t have time to look up the 1962. Here is the link to the rubrics of the 1962 missal: latinliturgy.com/id4.htm

You’ll notice it says the same thing. It specifies that if the priest passes an Altar that he “reverences it” (I’m supposing by a head bow or possibly interior reverence… not sure exactly). It also clearly states the following regarding the rule of genuflection:
“If he passes before a place where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved, he genuflects.” It also goes on to specify that if he passes another Altar where Mass is being celebrated and the Blessed Sacrament is being elevated or administered that he is to genuflect and adore it. The rubric also states that the priest then makes a profound bow to the Altar or the Crucifix or if the Blessed Sacrament is stored there in a tabernacle, he genuflects. Logically speaking if the priest only genuflects if the Blessed Sacrament is stored in the tabernacle and otherwise bows to the Altar or Crucifix, then the rubrics are specifying that he would not genuflect to an empty tabernacle but would instead then bow to the Altar and or the Crucifix.

Hope this helps to settle the issue for you.

 

[ProVobis]

Yup you are correct that link was for the new missal. I was on my iphone and didn’t have time to look up the 1962. Here is the link to the rubrics of the 1962 missal: latinliturgy.com/id4.htm

You’ll notice it says the same thing. It specifies that if the priest passes an Altar that he “reverences it” (I’m supposing by a head bow or possibly interior reverence… not sure exactly). It also clearly states the following regarding the rule of genuflection:
“If he passes before a place where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved, he genuflects.” It also goes on to specify that if he passes another Altar where Mass is being celebrated and the Blessed Sacrament is being elevated or administered that he is to genuflect and adore it. The rubric also states that the priest then makes a profound bow to the Altar or the Crucifix or if the Blessed Sacrament is stored there in a tabernacle, he genuflects. Logically speaking if the priest only genuflects if the Blessed Sacrament is stored in the tabernacle and otherwise bows to the Altar or Crucifix, then the rubrics are specifying that he would not genuflect to an empty tabernacle but would instead then bow to the Altar and or the Crucifix.

Hope this helps to settle the issue for you.

Thanks for the research.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t speak Latin, but from attending the Latin Good Friday liturgy, i believe “genuflect” comes from Latin, “flecta genua” which I gather, means something along the lines of “bend the knee.”

That’s exactly where it comes from.

 

[una_fides]

I don’t know of any one particular book that has all of what I said. A lot of what we learn during formation and in the seminary comes from many sources. You get a little here and a little there. Some of it comes from history classes, other pieces from spirituality courses, and others from classes on liturgy.

As to your question re: genuflecting to the altar. For something to be a sin the matter must be grave. I don’t believe that this constitutes grave matter. I guess that anyone can become adolatrous and that certainly is very grave. But the average Catholic is not idolotrous. He is a creature of habit, even bad ones or impractical one.

In addition, you must know that the matter is grave. Knowing is not just having read the rules or hearing about it. In moral theology, to know means to believe that it is a sin. If you believe that something is a sin and you choose to do it, then you’re guilty of sin.

Finally, you must be free to choose not to do it. I guess no one holds a gun to your head to genuflect. The freedom question is N/A here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

JR,

Thanks for your response. I think you meant to say, in the part I boldfaced above, that for something to be a moral sin the matter must be grave. For example, stealing is not always grave matter. For the matter to be grave, the amount of theft must be of a certain substantial degree. So if someone steals a paper clip from work, he is not committing a grave matter, though he did steal. If he stole a set of staples or ream of paper without asking because he feared the boss would get upset or say no, then it is not a grave matter, but it would still be a venial sin. As the saints have so often repeated, all venial sins must be avoided. I’m currently reading “Attaining Salvation” by St. Alphonsus Ligouri. Great book. On page 16, he explains that if we truly desire to become saints that we are to “resolve to first avoid every venial sin, however slight.” While it’s not a matter of mortal sin if someone is indifferent about bowing or kneeling or if worse he knowingly chooses to go against the rules out of convenience, it is still a matter that nonetheless should be clarified and addressed, and if a person stays in such a lukewarm condition, St. Alphonsus explains that he is in great danger of falling into mortal sin. I believe it could also be a mortal sin if knowingly done out of defiance to Church rules or out of lack of faith in the Real Presence.

Regardless, I think we can both at least agree that it is important to follow the guidelines of the Church for worship and when given the opportunity to instruct others so they can do the same.