Boy Scouts and Freemasonry

[ess1113a]

No, the BS are not moral relativist, they are secular. There is a difference.

It is good for youth to be involved in secular organizations, if for no other reason than they will be spending most of their life in a secular pursuit otherwise known as “employment” and interacting with others in the secular entity known as “civil society”.

ICXC NIKA

Then our youth are perfectly fine being involved in Masonic youth groups? Secular by nature. Order of Demolay

 

[Brendan]

No, the BS are not moral relativist, they are secular. There is a difference.

ICXC NIKA

Technically speaking, the Boy Scouts are Theistic, not secular. They require a belief in a monotheistic God as part of membership in the organization.

Girl Scouts, on the other hand, are Secular, a belief in a monothesitic God is optional.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Technically speaking, the Boy Scouts are Theistic, not secular. They require a belief in a monotheistic God as part of membership in the organization.

Girl Scouts, on the other hand, are Secular, a belief in a monothesitic God is optional.

Why would theism make an organization non-secular?

 

[Brendan]

Then our youth are perfectly fine being involved in Masonic youth groups? Secular by nature. Order of Demolay

But it does not follow that the Boy Scouts are a Masonic Organization.

The US Army was ‘founded’ by a Masonic Commanding General ( George Washington), and it’s current iteration allows for chaplains of multiple faiths, and soilder of even no faith at all.

But none of that means that the US Army is a Masonic organization.


I would challenge you to point out where in the BSA by-laws, or the Boy Scout Handbook, or even in any of the Merit Badge requirements, are any charasticly Masonic beliefs.

 

[Brendan]

Why would theism make an organization non-secular?

Having a requirement to believe in a theistic God is not an element of a secular organization, by definition.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Having a requirement to believe in a theistic God is not an element of a secular organization, by definition.

In what way? A rational belief in God does not necessarily mean any kind of reference to religion much less a focus on sacred as opposed to temporal, worldly matters in the organization’s key activities and purposes. Still less does it imply any association with a religious order, if we were to use a more narrow definition of the word.

Or, to go back to the most raw, etymological meaning of the word “secular”, the Boy Scouts are a thing of this age, not of the age to come.

 

[ess1113a]

Freemasonry requires that a candidate believe in a single devine being, monotheism, and they are condemned by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Everything I have read on this website lists this as the primary and overwhelming reason for their exclusion from the Catholic members.

If the Boy Scouts believe in exactly the same philosophy, monotheism, then why are they put in a separate category?

We cant really include secrecy as a reason for exclusion since even the Knights of Columbus practice secrecy in meetings and ritual and yet they are welcomed and in which I belong to a council.

I have also read on another thread within this website that the Catechism forbids membership in any organization that conspires against the Roman Catholic Church. I need examples of this to argue pursuasively to a business partner who is a Mason and I can find no examples of the Freemsons conspiring against our Church.
I am hesitant to use events from the 16th and 17th century. A more recent example would be more convincing.

 

[Brian_H]

There have been a lot of interesting points raised on this thread. If secular humanism and religious indifference are hostile to the truth of the Church, it is important to talk about where the line should be drawn with respect to what organizations Catholics should or should not belong to. I really liked the point about AA, it clearly fosters religious indifference.

I also wanted to clarify somethings I raised about the Boy Scouts. People have pointed out that Boy Scouts do a lot of charity work and that it fosters religious practices without telling members what religious dogmas to believe. This is a very similar defense to what masons claim. I also wanted to point out that the Order of the Arrow is more clearly masonic in nature compared to Scouting. In the Order of the Arrow there is secrecy, non-members are forbidden, there are initiation ceremonies, three degrees, an altar, God is referred to as the Great Spirit (similar to masonic reference to the Grand Architect of the Universe), etc.

So where is the line drawn? It seems illogical to forbid one group, but allow others with similar beliefs.

 

[tarboy]

Brian,
being Masonic in nature does not equal anti-Catholic
Please prove your point, that the masonic elements in the BS are anti-Catholic and thus justify your request.

I believe the BS are no more anti-Catholic than the dollar bill or our constitution which all have masonic elements.

There have been a lot of interesting points raised on this thread. If secular humanism and religious indifference are hostile to the truth of the Church, it is important to talk about where the line should be drawn with respect to what organizations Catholics should or should not belong to. I really liked the point about AA, it clearly fosters religious indifference.

I also wanted to clarify somethings I raised about the Boy Scouts. People have pointed out that Boy Scouts do a lot of charity work and that it fosters religious practices without telling members what religious dogmas to believe. This is a very similar defense to what masons claim. I also wanted to point out that the Order of the Arrow is more clearly masonic in nature compared to Scouting. In the Order of the Arrow there is secrecy, non-members are forbidden, there are initiation ceremonies, three degrees, an altar, God is referred to as the Great Spirit (similar to masonic reference to the Grand Architect of the Universe), etc.

So where is the line drawn? It seems illogical to forbid one group, but allow others with similar beliefs.

 

[Brian_H]

Brian,
being Masonic in nature does not equal anti-Catholic
Please prove your point, that the masonic elements in the BS are anti-Catholic and thus justify your request.

I believe the BS are no more anti-Catholic than the dollar bill or our constitution which all have masonic elements.

I’m not saying that the BS are anti-Catholic. It is my understanding, based upon statements from then Cardinal Ratzinger in 1983 and 2000, that the primary reason Catholics cannot be freemasons is because masonry fosters religious indifferentism and is in effect its own religion, and therefore contrary to the fullness of truth. The secrecy of the organization has also been a consistent concern. That being said, I’m not claiming to have a perfect understanding of all the reasons masonry is prohibited and we might get on a bit of a tangent if we go into a lot of detail on that point. But, it is my understanding that the Church’s primary criticism of freemasonry is that it fosters religious indifferentism and that it is its own religion.

As far as proving my point, the Order of the Arrow is clearly freemasonry within Boy Scouts, I feel like that much is overwhelmingly clear. Again, the Order of the Arrow was created by freemasons that were active adult leaders in Scouting that wanted to create something very similar to masonry within Scouting. Both have 3 degrees, secret initiation ceremonies which have a religious dimension, members must vow to not reveal the secrets of the Order of the Arrow, there are altars, vestments and sacramentals, God is referred to as the Great Spirit (religious indifferentism). They both have a goal of self improvement for members.

 

[tarboy]

Brian, I don’t follow your logic
You seem to claim that anything created by a Freemason is tainted, yet I don’t see you supporting this accusation or responding to the numerous posts that highlighted this fallacy.

Again, what elements of the Order of the Arrow are anti-Catholic. It’s not enough to just claim it was tainted by Freemasons.

I’m not saying that the BS are anti-Catholic. It is my understanding, based upon statements from then Cardinal Ratzinger in 1983 and 2000, that the primary reason Catholics cannot be freemasons is because masonry fosters religious indifferentism and is in effect its own religion, and therefore contrary to the fullness of truth. The secrecy of the organization has also been a consistent concern. That being said, I’m not claiming to have a perfect understanding of all the reasons masonry is prohibited and we might get on a bit of a tangent if we go into a lot of detail on that point. But, it is my understanding that the Church’s primary criticism of freemasonry is that it fosters religious indifferentism and that it is its own religion.

As far as proving my point, the Order of the Arrow is clearly freemasonry within Boy Scouts, I feel like that much is overwhelmingly clear. Again, the Order of the Arrow was created by freemasons that were active adult leaders in Scouting that wanted to create something very similar to masonry within Scouting. Both have 3 degrees, secret initiation ceremonies which have a religious dimension, members must vow to not reveal the secrets of the Order of the Arrow, there are altars, vestments and sacramentals, God is referred to as the Great Spirit (religious indifferentism). They both have a goal of self improvement for members.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Freemasonry requires that a candidate believe in a single devine being, monotheism, and they are condemned by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Everything I have read on this website lists this as the primary and overwhelming reason for their exclusion from the Catholic members.

If the Boy Scouts believe in exactly the same philosophy, monotheism, then why are they put in a separate category?

We cant really include secrecy as a reason for exclusion since even the Knights of Columbus practice secrecy in meetings and ritual and yet they are welcomed and in which I belong to a council.

I have also read on another thread within this website that the Catechism forbids membership in any organization that conspires against the Roman Catholic Church. I need examples of this to argue pursuasively to a business partner who is a Mason and I can find no examples of the Freemsons conspiring against our Church.
I am hesitant to use events from the 16th and 17th century. A more recent example would be more convincing.

Monotheism obviously is not a reason to reject an organization. Why would it be? I’m rather confused by that assertion. We Catholics are monotheistic, of course, so why would we object to it?

Secrecy, however, is an issue- and in particular their oaths. The Knights of Columbus take great pains that all oaths and such can never conflict with our religious and civil duties, and everything we do is open to the Catholic clergy, whether they are members or not. Freemasonry does not make such exceptions, and so the commitments a Mason makes to the organization can conflict with his duties to the Church or to the State. This is one of the key reasons a Catholic cannot be a Freemason.

 

[Brian_H]

Brian, I don’t follow your logic
You seem to claim that anything created by a Freemason is tainted, yet I don’t see you supporting this accusation or responding to the numerous posts that highlighted this fallacy.

Again, what elements of the Order of the Arrow are anti-Catholic. It’s not enough to just claim it was tainted by Freemasons.

That is not what I am claiming. Freemasonry is prohibited because of its beliefs and practices. Those beliefs and practices have been adopted by other groups. The Order of the Arrow was not only founded by masons, but more importantly, it clearly contains many of the beliefs and practices of freemasonry and I have pointed those out to you twice, so I’m sorry if you failed to read that or if you are having some sort of cognitive dissonance about this. So let me ask you, shouldn’t we as Catholics boycott groups that are based upon masonry or foster secular humanism or religious indifference? Why should Catholics reject some groups that promote these ideas which are hostile to the truth and accept others?

 

[Brian_H]

For your edification Tarboy:

Carroll Edson was one of the co-founders of the Order of the Arrow. In an interview with Edson during his later years, he recalled that the task of writing the first rituals of the society was assigned to an early member who was “a 32nd degree Mason.” Familiar terms such as “lodge” and “obligation,” were borrowed from Masonic practice, as were some ceremonial practices. Even the early national meeting was called a “Grand Lodge,” thought to be a Masonic reference.

Other masonic elements of the Order of the Arrow, organization in lodges and secret handshakes.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I’m surprised no one has yet brought up the politically incorrect goofball elements of the Order of the Arrow, notably all the dressing up like American Indians. As far as I know this side of it is not derived from the Freemasons, but it could easily be seen as objectionable.

 

[ess1113a]

Im getting totally confused so allow me to be blunt and ask the questions that I am having difficulty with:

1. If the Freemasons are condemned because they refuse to name their god by any specific title and the only requirement is that they believe in a divine being, then thats bad. Why?
2. The Boy Scouts a cherished and honored organization has the same requirements of its members, namely a belief in a single deity, and they are condoned and supported.
3. Whats the difference?
4. They both do incredible charitable work based upon what I read and what I hear so thats not an issue.
5. Secrecy is not the main issue since the K of C and the Boy Scouts both have “secrets” and they should not be shared with just the general population.
6. After repeated attempts to find incidences and occurences to illustrate the Catholic prohibition against organizations that conspire against the Catholic Church, I personally cannot find any. I need and want to find instances to illustrate my point to my friends but cannot find in that have occured in the last 50 years or so.
7. Although I subscribe to the Holy See, I have difficulty enforcing an edict or papal bull that went into effect in the 1700s. It looks like times have changed.

Thats just my issues. Maybe I am oversimplifying the issue but I am a simple person.

 

[tarboy]

What about college fraternities and soroties? By definition they should be treated the same as Masons. They all have secret ceremonies and secret oaths. I was a Catholic Greek in college, never thought there was a problem. I guess I assumed no group oath superseeds God and country.

Secrecy, however, is an issue- and in particular their oaths. The Knights of Columbus take great pains that all oaths and such can never conflict with our religious and civil duties, and everything we do is open to the Catholic clergy, whether they are members or not. Freemasonry does not make such exceptions, and so the commitments a Mason makes to the organization can conflict with his duties to the Church or to the State. This is one of the key reasons a Catholic cannot be a Freemason.

 

[Lujack]

In what way? A rational belief in God does not necessarily mean any kind of reference to religion much less a focus on sacred as opposed to temporal, worldly matters in the organization’s key activities and purposes. Still less does it imply any association with a religious order, if we were to use a more narrow definition of the word.

It isn’t secular because it requires some form of a religious belief, specifically monotheism (actually, I’ve never heard anything about the Boy Scouts and polytheism, though I’m sure somebody must have brought it up at some point).

The Boy Scouts are nonsectarian, though.

 

[septimine]

I really have no idea why we draw the line for excluding Freemasonry.

We should never have or use one dollar bills with Mason George Washingtons picture on it or the masonic symbols on the back, same with the quarter.

We shoudl never buy, drive, or drive inside a Ford vehicle of any kind. Henry Ford was a mason and his dedication to satan is obvious in his vehicles.

Benjamin Franklin should never be taught in history classes at any age. He was actually the grand master in Pennsylvania

There are 14 presidents to include both Roosevelts and Truman along with Washington and Andrew Jackson. They should be excluded from all history texts and classroom instruction.

Mozart, Beethoven, Sousa, Haydn, and Beethoven were ALL masons. There music should be excluded in any classes that are taught.

The Roman Catholic Church has a rich and noble past that we can teach in Catholic school. There is no need to ever mention or illustrate anyone that was associated with Freemasonry or its branches. Just use the Catholic heroes that we have and that will be plenty to teach our children.

If you are unlucky enough to have children in public school (you have my prayers) you can still talk to the school board and have ALL mention of masonic heroes removed from text books and classes. By doing anything less you are making the problem worse.

Look there’s a difference between a tool and an organization. Masonic type organizations are problematic because they actively promote ideas that undermine Christianity. So to the degree that they do so, they’re a problem. it’s not like I’m endorsing Obama by working for dollars, it’s a currency used as an exchange. A car is just a vehicle.

 

[ess1113a]

OK, still not clear enough. I am not a theologian so bear with me.

“They actively promote ideas that undermine Christianity”

When does this occur?

The oath I saw online specifically states “this oath will not violate your trust in God, your country, your neighbor or yourself”. That sounds pretty much like the oath I took in the K of C.

I also read that every state is in control of its own Masonic governance. I have no evidence to the contrary so we should condemn every mason because of a single state ?

That would be like having Christianity condemn Catholicism because a limited number of priests commit abuses.