Boy Scouts and Freemasonry

[tarboy]

Brian, Maybe what you are missing is that - not all beliefs and practices should be treated equally. You need to understand which components contravene the catholic faith, and not lump them all together as evil

If Masons practice FIFO accounting, are you implying it is evil and not to be replicated (?!)

That is not what I am claiming. Freemasonry is prohibited because of its beliefs and practices. Those beliefs and practices have been adopted by other groups. The Order of the Arrow was not only founded by masons, but more importantly, it clearly contains many of the beliefs and practices of freemasonry and I have pointed those out to you twice, so I’m sorry if you failed to read that or if you are having some sort of cognitive dissonance about this. So let me ask you, shouldn’t we as Catholics boycott groups that are based upon masonry or foster secular humanism or religious indifference? Why should Catholics reject some groups that promote these ideas which are hostile to the truth and accept others?

 

[gh4]

Then our youth are perfectly fine being involved in Masonic youth groups? Secular by nature. Order of Demolay

Ahhhh Demolay… got my very first kiss at a Demolay/Rainbow Girl dance about a bazillion years ago!!
My Dad was a Mason, Mom and Dad were both Eastern Star and I was a Rainbow Girl. None of us or our organizations were anti-catholic. Most of my parents best of friends that were life long friends were Catholic and my parents sure weren’t against them!
I remember one of my Rainbow Girls sisters was Catholic. She wasn’t forbidden to join, not sure what her church thought of it, I wasn’t Catholic at the time.

 

[forester1241]

42 years ago my very first camping trip was the council annual Catholic Retreat weekend. I sometimes wish I can have a fuller sharing of my Catholic faith in all my scouting activities, but I haven’t found any serious conflicts.

 

[Mayita30]

How could any reasonable Catholic be against what I said? Hypocrisy ! We cannot exclude organizations for not specifying Jesus Christ as the son of God and still tolerate other groups that refuse to proclaim the truths that our religion adheres to and subscribes to.

Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, AA, NA, Freemasonry etc etc. They are all moral relativist and you perpetuate that.

By the the tome of your posts, you dont seem to be a catholic. Talking about being sarcastic !

 

[ess1113a]

By the the tome of your posts, you dont seem to be a catholic. Talking about being sarcastic !

Mayita,
A Catholic (capital C) cannot be sarcastic?
Tome?
Your statement is as ludicrous as me saying you cannot be Catholic since you are semiliterate.

I am a dedicated and life long Roman Catholic, involved in my parish, and raising a Catholic family.
I am trying to get information to assist me in discouraging a friend from being a Freemason. I am also trying to understand the why of the Catholic prohibition against Freemasonry.
I am also an American and as such I exercise the right to ask WHY I am doing something. I want and need to understand the rationale behind a decree. I ask the same questions on any new law or decree that effects me personally and especially a law or decree whose rationale is not clear or obvious.
Even if I was sarcastic it would not reflect on my Catholicism any more than your apparent abuse of the english language reflects on your character. Sarcasm is a recoginized literary form utilized throughtout literature.

 

[septimine]

OK, still not clear enough. I am not a theologian so bear with me.

“They actively promote ideas that undermine Christianity”

When does this occur?

Well, they’re promoting a particular view of God, one that is very close to what the New Age promotes. God in freemasonry is a nice friendly diety that doesn’t demand adherence to his way. A mason is taught that Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna are equally as valid as Jesus. Further, they teach that one must earn heaven apart from Jesus, which runs contrary to the Bible. Sure saving faith has works, but the Freemasons have that backwards – you work without faith.

The oath I saw online specifically states “this oath will not violate your trust in God, your country, your neighbor or yourself”. That sounds pretty much like the oath I took in the K of C.

I also read that every state is in control of its own Masonic governance. I have no evidence to the contrary so we should condemn every mason because of a single state ?

That would be like having Christianity condemn Catholicism because a limited number of priests commit abuses.

well, again, look at what they say about man, God and nature. It’s not what God said. Freemasons deny original sin, the role of Jesus, and the means of salvation. They have a “god” sure, and they’re monotheistic. It’s just that they undermine Christianity by denying it at every turn, most often in reletivistic directions.

That’s not the same as a priest abusing trust. In the case of priests, what they were doing was condemned by the church before the scandals happened. What the masons do would be equivelent to teaching that such behavior is not only “ok” but a sacrement. They don’t condemn heresy, heresy is their goal. They don’t accidentally teach reletivism, it’s their purpose.

 

[JHow]

Many have already defended the BSA fairly well here from the charge of being a masonic organization. I just wanted to touch on a few points, speaking as an Eagle Scout and currently an adult leader in BSA.

1. BSA does affirm a belief in God and encourages its members to actively practice their religious faith. Nearly all local troops are sponsored by religious institutions (e.g., Parish Men’s Club, Methodist church, Mormon Church, etc.) BSA is strictly non-sectarian, however. Membership or non-membership in any church is not required for membership in BSA. Please also note, the religious awards in BSA are awards given by the respective churches and their committees. To earn the Ad Altare Dei (Catholic) award, for instance, the boy must meet criteria specified by the Church’s committee on scouting, not BSA.
2. Order of the Arrow is “secret” only to the extent that it’s ceremonies and events are generally limited to its boy members. There are limits to this, however. If your son is selected for OA membership, you (adult) can in fact attend/view/observe what takes place at their induction ceremonies, etc. No aspect of Scouting is closed to parents - and if someone ever tells you differently, you should question them. In our Troop parents have the right (and in fact, we encourage them because we need volunteers to help drive and so forth) to attend EVERYTHING we do.
3. As regards moral teaching in BSA, here is about the extent of it as it relates to religious principles (from the 1927 Handbook for Boys):

A Scout is Reverent. He is reverent towards God. He is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.

 

[tarboy]

Wow, I’m suprised that any Protestant church allows their members to be freemasons, if that is what they teach. Especially the Calvnist churches!

Well, they’re promoting a particular view of God, one that is very close to what the New Age promotes. God in freemasonry is a nice friendly diety that doesn’t demand adherence to his way. A mason is taught that Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna are equally as valid as Jesus. Further, they teach that one must earn heaven apart from Jesus, which runs contrary to the Bible. Sure saving faith has works, but the Freemasons have that backwards – you work without faith.

well, again, look at what they say about man, God and nature. It’s not what God said. Freemasons deny original sin, the role of Jesus, and the means of salvation. They have a “god” sure, and they’re monotheistic. It’s just that they undermine Christianity by denying it at every turn, most often in reletivistic directions.
. . .

 

[ess1113a]

Here is what I found on the internet about Texas Freemasonry:
The Bible Presentation:

Masonry therefore opens this book upon its altar with the command to each of its members that he dilligently study therein to learn the way to eternal life. Adopting no particular creed, forbidding all sectarian discussion within its lodge rooms but urging each to be steadfast in the faith of his profession. Masonry, would take every good man by the hand, lead them to the altar, point to the open Bible thereon and urge that he direct his way through life by the light that he there shall find; and so long as teh light shines upon its altar, so long as it illuminates the pathways of the craftsman with its golden rays of truth, so long will Freemasonry live and shed its beneficient influence upon all mankind.
Guard them my brother, that Book of sacred and immutable law as you guard your life; defend it more heroically than you would the flag of your country and live according to its divine precepts with its everlasting assurances of blessed immortality.

That was taken off line. According to what I have read, every new member is presented a Holy Bible with the above words being recited to the member.
Doesnt sound bad to me. What is the argument again?

 

[ess1113a]

Well, they’re promoting a particular view of God, one that is very close to what the New Age promotes. God in freemasonry is a nice friendly diety that doesn’t demand adherence to his way. A mason is taught that Muhammad and Buddha and Krishna are equally as valid as Jesus. Further, they teach that one must earn heaven apart from Jesus, which runs contrary to the Bible. Sure saving faith has works, but the Freemasons have that backwards – you work without faith.

well, again, look at what they say about man, God and nature. It’s not what God said. Freemasons deny original sin, the role of Jesus, and the means of salvation. They have a “god” sure, and they’re monotheistic. It’s just that they undermine Christianity by denying it at every turn, most often in reletivistic directions.

That’s not the same as a priest abusing trust. In the case of priests, what they were doing was condemned by the church before the scandals happened. What the masons do would be equivelent to teaching that such behavior is not only “ok” but a sacrement. They don’t condemn heresy, heresy is their goal. They don’t accidentally teach reletivism, it’s their purpose.

Very good points. So I can quote these in my argument:
What wording is used when they deny original sin?
Where do they deny Christianity?
Where do they have heresy as their goal?

Thanks for the points but I love being able to quote specific instances in my argument with my business associate. I would appreciate the information so I can use this next time we discuss this and I am sure it will come up.

 

[runningdude]

Im getting totally confused so allow me to be blunt and ask the questions that I am having difficulty with:

…
5. Secrecy is not the main issue since the K of C and the Boy Scouts both have “secrets” and they should not be shared with just the general population.
…
Thats just my issues. Maybe I am oversimplifying the issue but I am a simple person.

The boy scouts have no secrets - zero. There is nothing that a scout is discouraged from sharing with his family or friends.

All this talk about secrets in scouts is utter nonsense.

 

[Georgia]

As a practical matter, there are no secrets in masonry, though some things are symbolically secret. If one were to peruse any number of books, web sites, and who knows what else, he will find a fair representation of what happens in a lodge. If there were a concern about real secrecy, things would be changed periodically. As it is, I have seen re-creations of masonic rituals on any number of television channels.

 

[ess1113a]

Great summary Georgia. I feel the same way since I have been searching for stuff, its all easily accessible

 

[runningdude]

Many have already defended the BSA fairly well here from the charge of being a masonic organization. I just wanted to touch on a few points, speaking as an Eagle Scout and currently an adult leader in BSA.

1. BSA does affirm a belief in God and encourages its members to actively practice their religious faith. Nearly all local troops are sponsored by religious institutions (e.g., Parish Men’s Club, Methodist church, Mormon Church, etc.) BSA is strictly non-sectarian, however. Membership or non-membership in any church is not required for membership in BSA. Please also note, the religious awards in BSA are awards given by the respective churches and their committees. To earn the Ad Altare Dei (Catholic) award, for instance, the boy must meet criteria specified by the Church’s committee on scouting, not BSA.
2. Order of the Arrow is “secret” only to the extent that it’s ceremonies and events are generally limited to its boy members. There are limits to this, however. If your son is selected for OA membership, you (adult) can in fact attend/view/observe what takes place at their induction ceremonies, etc. No aspect of Scouting is closed to parents - and if someone ever tells you differently, you should question them. In our Troop parents have the right (and in fact, we encourage them because we need volunteers to help drive and so forth) to attend EVERYTHING we do.
3. As regards moral teaching in BSA, here is about the extent of it as it relates to religious principles (from the 1927 Handbook for Boys):

 

[Brendan]

BTW,

The Vatican just advanced the cause of sainthood for the soon to be Venerable Jauques Sevin, the founder of Catholic Scouting

Fr. Sevin worked with Baden-Powell, the founder of Scouting in general, to establish and promote Scouting in France.

I’m surprised that this priest, and the Vatican in general, as so supportive of Scouting if it is so tied with Freemasonry.

vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/documents/detail/articolo/scout-11536/

scout.org/information_events/news/2007/une_biographie_du_pere_sevin

Oh yea, and here is French troop associated with a Extraordinary Form parish
te-deum.blogspot.com/2007/05/france-traditional-catholic-scouting.html

I don’t know if they are SSPX or not, but even if they are, no one can claim that the SSPX is supportive of Freemasonry either.

 

[ess1113a]

Daniel Carter Beard,
Founder of the Boy Scouts.
Made a Mason in Mariner’s Lodge No. 67, New York City, New York, and later affiliated with Cornucopia Lodge 563, Flushing, New York

Other masons who were also heavily involved in scouting were:
M.W. Bro. H.R.H. the Duke of Kent, Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England and President of the Boy Scout Movement in 1975;
V.W. Bro. Archbishop Lord Fisher;
Bro. Rudyard Kipling;
M.W. Bro. Edward, Prince of Wales -Chief Scout in 1911;
M.W. Bro. The Duke of Kent, GM, UGLE 19391942, Commodore of the Sea Scouts 1929-1942;
V.W. Bro. the Very Rev. Israel Brodie, Chief Rabbi, who was a member of the Boy Scouts Council; and Lord Somers, Governor of Victoria and foundation Master of Baden-Powell Lodge No. 488, who became Chief Scout in 1941 upon Lord Baden-Powell’s death.

I am surprised also with the Church’s support of BSA and their condemnation of the Freemasons. Looks like the two have ALOT of similarities.

Is that the same SSPX that was excommunicated by our Pope?

 

[JHow]

…I am surprised also with the Church’s support of BSA and their condemnation of the Freemasons. Looks like the two have ALOT of similarities.
…

Only superficially. Sure, the OA has a “lodge” and the masons have a “lodge”. OA has ceremonies with passwords, and so do masons. But do masons sleep all night in the woods as part of their initiation? Do masons require their members to be proficient campers? Do masons spend all day of their initiation completing maintenance and service projects at their local camp? Do masons even have a local camp? At it’s heart, scouting is about giving outdoor experience and skills to boys who might not get the opportunity elsewhere. This is a unique mission that scouts have.

 

[ess1113a]

Found this interesting pin. Wonder if its worn by many members of the BSA?

 

[ess1113a]

Only superficially. Sure, the OA has a “lodge” and the masons have a “lodge”. OA has ceremonies with passwords, and so do masons. But do masons sleep all night in the woods as part of their initiation? Do masons require their members to be proficient campers? Do masons spend all day of their initiation completing maintenance and service projects at their local camp? Do masons even have a local camp? At it’s heart, scouting is about giving outdoor experience and skills to boys who might not get the opportunity elsewhere. This is a unique mission that scouts have.

From what I have read and researched:
Do the scouts sponsor over 30 pediatric hospitals free of charge?
Do the scouts donate millions of dollars per day to charity?
Do the scouts sponsor orphanages?
Did the scouts participate in the founding of this nation?
Do the scouts finance and run dyslexia learning centers free of charge in several locations throughout the US?
Masons have thousands of local “camps”, apparently they are called lodges. In Texas there are about 960 of them.
At their heart, Freemasonry appears to be about making average men into better men. That is a unique mission and charge that Freemasonry appears to have.
If you call building and financing major hospitals and orthopedic clinics service projects then I guess they do.

 

[GEddie]

From what I have read and researched:
Do the scouts sponsor over 30 pediatric hospitals free of charge?
Do the scouts donate millions of dollars per day to charity?
Do the scouts sponsor orphanages?
Did the scouts participate in the founding of this nation?
Do the scouts finance and run dyslexia learning centers free of charge in several locations throughout the US?
Masons have thousands of local “camps”, apparently they are called lodges. In Texas there are about 960 of them.
At their heart, Freemasonry appears to be about making average men into better men. That is a unique mission and charge that Freemasonry appears to have.
If you call building and financing major hospitals and orthopedic clinics service projects then I guess they do.

Nonsequiutur.

Of course the BS played no role in the founding fathers, as it did not exist until 1910.

Of course the BS do not build hospitals etc. as it consists of youths who have limited or no economic resources; while Masonry consists of grown men with professions, businesses, etc.

I’d like to know why some think they are the same. Having BS founders who were masons, or some vaguely resembling physical symbols, IMNAAHO does not cut it.

ICXC NIKA