Boy Scouts/Scouting

[DBR1]

My 8 y.o. son is in the Cub Scouts and has been for the last two years. His pack is sponsored by our parish. As a child/teen, I grew up in Scouting at the same parish. My wife believes that Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts is wrong because she has read that it was founded by Mason(s) and she believes that Scouting puts all religions on the same footing or gives equal credence to all religions – as well as primarily engages in humanism. Because of this, she feels our participation in Scouting violates the 1st Commandment. She feels very strongly about this and insists that she is being guided by the Holy Spirit on this issue. I, on the other hand, feel Scouting is important and helps us teach our son important values (including Christian and Catholic values), allows him to see others adults emulating those values, provides a great learning opportunity, and is simply fun. I grew up with wonderful experiences in Scouting and want my son to experience the same. My son loves it too. I simply do not see Scouting in the same light that my wife does. We both do agree that overall Scouting does good things, but she insists that she cannot condone Scouting for the reasons stated above. This has become a real sticking point for us. I have researched and prayed about this but I do not come up with the same answer she does.
Does the Catholic church have any written position on Scouting? Was the Cub/Boy Scouts founded by Masons or involve Masonic principles? Does Scouting place all religions on an equal footing? Any advice on how we should handle this issue?

 

[jprioli]

Does the Catholic church have any written position on Scouting? Was the Cub/Boy Scouts founded by Masons or involve Masonic principles? Does Scouting place all religions on an equal footing? Any advice on how we should handle this issue?

I know of no official position that the Church has published on Scouting.

I cannot vouch for the origins of Scouting. I could research it, but you could do that too.

Historically, Scouting has been very Christian-friendly, and particularly even Catholic-friendly. They even used to have a badge called Ad Altare Dei.

Scouting is not a Catholic organization, nor is it Christian. It does not promote any particular religion, and it does not even insist that Scouts be religious. But it does encourage Scouts to participate in a religion if they are so inclined. It welcomes the Scouts’ religions, without imposing one.

As a Catholic Deacon, I have prayed the Invocation at an Eagle ceremony, at the request of the new Eagle. My dad was an Eagle scout umptity years ago in his troop, which was sponsored by St. Antoninus Parish in Newark, NJ.

If… and I mean IF there is truth to your wife’s claim that Scouting is Masonic, then I would stay away from it.

But I have serious doubts about that claim, since in an age when Catholicism – and especially American Catholicism – was very conscious of avoiding Masonic associations (1940s and 1950s), many parishes sponsored Scout troops.

If this were anyone other than your wife, I would say, “Demand that she produce the proof of her claims.”

But because this IS your wife, you need to approach this situation with great prudence. Weigh things very carefully. Consider the potential cost of a “victory.”

Regards,
Deacon Joe

 

[jprioli]

Scouting is not a Catholic organization, nor is it Christian. It does not promote any particular religion, and it does not even insist that Scouts be religious. But it does encourage Scouts to participate in a religion if they are so inclined. It welcomes the Scouts’ religions, without imposing one.

Correcting myself here:

Scouting does expect Scouts – and particularly Scout leaders to be religious. Specifically, it expects them to recognize an obligation to God.

This is taken from a page on the Scouting website called “Language of Scouting”:

Religious Principle, Declaration of
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no person can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, acknowledges the religious element in the development of youth members. However, the BSA is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious development. Its policy is that the organization or institution with which youth members are connected shall give definite attention to their religious life. Only adults willing to subscribe to this declaration of principle and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.

Source: scouting.org/media/los/all.aspx

Regards,
Deacon Joe

 

[jprioli]

Consider also the information in this page from the Scouting website:

scouting.org/media/factsheets/02-377.aspx

Here is a link to my diocese’s Scouting website:

dotccs.org/

Regards,
Deacon Joe

 

[CUAGRAD08]

I’m sorry to hear your wife is against such a great organization. As an Eagle Scout and as a Catholic theologian, I have never found any part of the scouting movement to be contrary to the Catholic Faith in any way. I hope you will be able to convince your wife that it is a good organization because it is an excellent way to help young men (and women in many countries and to a limited extent in the US), become responsible knowledgeable and pleasant young adults.

As for the Mason thing I offer the following quote from a website entitled Famous Non-Masons:

“Lord Robert Baden-Powell, Chief Scout of the World and Founder of the World Scout Movement is sometimes wrongly identified as a Freemason. No proof of this has ever been found and immediately after his death in 1941, his non-membership was confirmed by his widow, Lady Olave Baden-Powell, by his daughter Betty, by his brother Major David Baden-Powell (who was a Mason) and also by V. W. Bro. Lord Somers, who succeeded Baden-Powell at the head of the scout movement. The same confirmation of non-membership was made at the consecration of Baden-Powell Lodge #448, United Grand Lodge of Victoria, Australia. Also see “Freemasonry and the Scout Movement” by George W. Kerr, 1994. The myth seems to continue, however, despite many attempts to debunk it. You can find one such discussion on this page of the pen-ultimate B-P web site.2” masonicinfo.com/famousnon.htm

The same information is available at other websites if “Baden-Powell mason” is googled.

As for the religion thing I offer this. Scouting is not a religious organization, but is instead is an organization requiring an acceptance of religion. It in no way ever makes a determination on the legitimacy of said religion. Secondly I must point out that the first commandment does not prevent someone from being non-catholic, it prohibits the worship of other Gods.

I would like to pose a question and a thought experiment. I am assuming you are in the US but if not, imagine you are for a couple minutes. Is it wrong to be an American? The United States was founded by a number of masons and embodies much of the Masonic principles. It also allows you to be any religion you so choose. Is this wrong, should all American Catholics renounce their US citizenship?

In the end Scouting is much more than the masons and religion. It is the embodiment of what a young adult should be. It teaches citizenship and reverence, morality and economy, pride and self-esteem. Scouting is something that makes everyone involved (including parents) grow and become better human beings, (harmless plug-get/stay involved it creates a better relationship with your son and helps you).

Good Luck!

 

[puzzleannie]

I
Historically, Scouting has been very Christian-friendly, and particularly even Catholic-friendly. They even used to have a badge called Ad Altare Dei.

e

still does, our bishop awarded this honor to all the scouts of the Valley who earned it in a special Mass and reception at our parish last year. there are several religious awards (not merit badges) each with its own set of requirements set by members of that religion, and each diocese appoints someone to oversee the boys who work to earn it.

Boy Scouts was founded in England by Lord Baden Powell in 1912 and shortly after spread to the US and other countries. Having been involved in scouting for many years as a leader and being very familiar with the program and its history, I have never heard anything to indicate BP was a mason, and nothing in the ritual and activities of scouting have any links to freemasonry. I would challenge someone who believes that to provide proof.

 

[Marauder]

As someone that has been in the Scouting for a LONG time I can tell you that officially scouting as a whole allows people of any religion as long as they believe in a God of some type.

How that is implemented depends on the local troop. Officially a scout troop is “owned” by the sponsoring organization. They are responsable for the tone and management of the troop. You will find scout troops that are VERY LDS/Mormon and are used within the LDS church as a youth activity. You will also find Catholic troops, Methodist troops, etc. Very few troops would prohibit members of other faiths from joining their troop but would require you to respect the ideals of the sponsoring organization. Some sponsoring organizations take a hands off attitude, others are involved in all aspects of the troop.

I was the Scoutmaster of a troop that met at a Methodist church. The pastor of the church knew I was Catholic and had no problems with me being the Scoutmaster. I made sure I respected the beliefs of all the scouts in the troop and I made sure that the Catholic scouts in the troop could always attend Mass on Sundays (except for summer camp they could go to a Sunday evening Mass and at summer camp we made special arrangements.) All camping trips within my troop has a Scout’s Own service which is religious service usually run by one of the scouts in the troop. Theses services were usually conducted in a neutral method where as long as all the attendees were Christian then Christian ideaology was used. If there was a Jewish scout present then most of the talks would be based on the Old Testament or “neutral” versus from the New Testament. But like I said, how religion is handled varies troop to troop sponsoring organization to sponsoring organization.

The best advice is to visit all the troops in the area and see which ones meet your expectations, both on the religious level and on the activity level.

 

[mgiacomin]

Very interesting posts. I have done some research on the material discussed. Also I am an Eagle Scout and CubMaster. I was raised Methodist and have begun the journey to be a Catholic. I believe where people confuse the MASON/SCOUTING connection is this. There is an organization with in Boy Scouts, called the ORDER OF THE ARROW. This is considered the Scouts Honor Society. Boys and adults must be voted into the org. BEST OF THE BEST kind of a thing. Its traditions are based on Native American lore, Lenni Lenape Indian more specifically. I believe the men that started the Order of the Arrow back in the 1920’s were Masons. My research indicates that they took the structure of the Masonic Organization and used it for the OA. There are 3 levels of membership in the OA. I htink there are three levels of Masons.

Each level is based on your deeds, or CHEERFUL SERVICE to others. You start out as an ORDEAL, then BROTHERHOOD, then VIGIL member. Basically this organization is the grunts of local councils. They clean up camps in the spring and tear down the camps in the fall. They do the work so Johnny can go to summer camp.

Does that help.

 

[Marauder]

…There is an organization with in Boy Scouts, called the ORDER OF THE ARROW…

I personally don’t know whether Goodman was in the Masons or not but Indian aspects of OA are only used in the ceremonies and some lodges have Indian dance teams. The ceremonies in their modern format mention religion but only in a neutral way (i.e. “Great Master of all Scouts” type of way.) A board made up of members of various religious denominiations have approved the scripts. The ceremonies use to be “secret” but now a person with a valid interest in the ceremonies can attend them (with permission.) They are now called mysteries and it is requested that members maintain the mystery to help new members get the full experience without it being spoiled for them.

The “levels” within the OA are actually honors. Other then being able to attend ceremonies of your honor and below they do not entitle you to anything extra within the OA (other then a different sash.) The first honor in the OA is given to you by a vote of all the youth members in your troop. The second honor is something that you as a person can choose to do. The third honor is recognition from the OA itself for continued service to the OA.

The purpose of the OA as stated by their own publications is:

To recognize those campers- Scouts and Scouters – who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives, and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition.

The main purpose of the OA is to provide service to scouting both in camp (both summer camp and normal troop camping trips) and in the troop.

 

[DBR1]

I deeply appreciate everyone’s posts! Your thoughts and research have helped tremendously and at least have begun a good discussion for my wife and I about the issue and the merits of scouting.

Just to let you know where my wife and I stand – we have agreed to “let the issue sit for a while” and not let it be a sticking point which comes between the two of us (which it did over the last few weeks). My son is going to continue in scouting and we are going to continue to pray about it, research, and seek guidance. There are much bigger issues to face in life, marriage, and raising a family than to let this one issue become a divisive issue for us. We both want what is best for our son. I have to give credit to my wife and the Holy Spirit for her decision. This issue is especially difficult for my wife because she has had to overcome a very strong past history of masonic family ties – which explains her strong aversion to anything ‘masonic.’ Thus, we both have strong, though opposing feelings. We will continue to monitor this thread and if there are others of you desiring to post your thoughts, we deeply appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Thanks!!!

David

 

[monicatholic]

Mom of an Eagle Scout here, and ex-cub master and den leader: Three of our sons havd earned the Catholic badges for both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts-- Ad Altari Dei (BS) and Parvuli Dei. (CS)

as far as I remember, the OS is the only Scouting award that can be worn on the Scout/ Scouter uniform throughout one’s lifetime. It’s a very prestigious award.

Though we didn’t know of any Mason roots, it was aspects of secret society and the pseudo-religious language that caused us to reconsider our son’s involvement in OA. In fact, there seemed nothing sinister in the activities and meetings themselves, but we were still uncomfortable with it.

We restricted their access to OA, but supported every minute they spent in BSA

We never regretted either decision, though, at the time, one son balked at the OA restriction. Our scouting friends did, too. Even the Catholic ones.

Additionally, OP, with restrictions, Catholics are allowed to participate in the Masons, though with its history I don’t know why any Catholic would be attracted to it. A Catholic can certainly be involved in the BoyScouts without giving scandal or threatening their faith.

In the end, though, if your wife is still entirely unconvinced, it’s not the hill i’d die on. consider, instead, forming a chapter of the Blue Knights-- a group like Scouts but specifically catholic: http://www.totustuuscyo.com/programs.html

 

[Marauder]

as far as I remember, the OS is the only Scouting award that can be worn on the Scout/ Scouter uniform throughout one’s lifetime. It’s a very prestigious award.

Not sure what you mean by OS, but there are a few awards that can be worn on the Scout/Scouter uniform throughout one’s lifetime. The religious award knot and the lifesaving knots can be worn throughout both by scouts and scouters. There are other awards that change from being actual badges to knots when a scout becomes an adult. Both the Eagle Badge and Arrow of Light have corresponding knots that are worn on the adult uniform.

Though we didn’t know of any Mason roots, it was aspects of secret society and the pseudo-religious language that caused us to reconsider our son’s involvement in OA. In fact, there seemed nothing sinister in the activities and meetings themselves, but we were still uncomfortable with it.

There is nothing secret about the OA. Back in the 80’s when I first got in they considered it secret. Occassionaly you will find “old guard” people within the OA that still think it is, but they are wrong. Now the ceremonies themselves are just “mysteries”. Even less of a mystery then the Knights of Columbus ceremony. Any parent that has a responsable request to see the ceremony can see the ceremony. Usually requests to see the ceremony just to see little Johnny receive his award are denied but if a parent wants to see the ceremony because they are concerned about the content or are concerned about hazing/youth protection issues are allowed. The only religious aspects are mentions of the Great Spirit which any reasonable person recognizes as a reference to God. There is no mention of multiple spirits or anything else like that. As I mentioned before all the ceremonies have been presented to a committee with many of the major religions present in scouting on the committee (including Catholic representatives) and none of them have a problem with the ceremony.

 

[Marauder]

This issue is especially difficult for my wife because she has had to overcome a very strong past history of masonic family ties – which explains her strong aversion to anything ‘masonic.’

Just keep telling her that the local pack/troop is totally run both by the adults in the pack/troop and the sponsoring organization. Everything that you will see within the normal course of events is controlled by them (within official health and safety guidelines set by National, which they are hopefully following.) When you cub scout transfers to scouts look at all the troops in the area. Different troops have different styles of running things. Be active within the troop, go on the trips, you will see everything. There are no secret organizations within scouting (except for an unofficial group called the tribe of Mic-O-Say, that is only in the Mid-west and they aren’t part of the main scouting program.) All organizations within scouting allow a parent to be present at all things, except maybe boards of review where a scout is being reviewed for their award. At those meetings several other parents are present, just not the parent of the youth getting the award. You can be on the boards for scouts other then your own, just not your own.

There may be times in boy scout troops when your scout is 11 and up where the troop may request you to back off a little bit so your son can get out from “under your wings” but you are still allowed to be present.

The OA is the only organization that involves mystery and that is only around the ceremony, just to enhance the experience of the people entering. Very similar to the purpose of the secrecy around the ceremony for the Knights of Columbus. The difference between the two is if you have a valid concern you can attend the OA ceremony.

The following quote comes directly from the Guide to Safe Scouting and is listed as a requirement, not a guideline.

No secret organizations.
The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

 

[newbetx]

Does the Catholic church have any written position on Scouting? Was the Cub/Boy Scouts founded by Masons or involve Masonic principles? Does Scouting place all religions on an equal footing? Any advice on how we should handle this issue?

Hmmm. a tough nut, eh.

Many many Catholic Churches sponsor Scout troops. So it’s not against our religion. It is supported. In fact, the Catholic Church has several different metals scouts can earn regarding the learning of their faith. So it is certainly supported and encouraged.

I don’t know who was a Mason and who wasn’t, but the US Scouting program was based on Baden Powel’s experience with an English Scout. The program, while privately incorporated in 1910, was endorsed by Congress in 1916. Our troop has been around since 1915. We’re quite proud of that.

Scouts expect a belief in God. Yes, from the programs perspective, all God based faiths are equal. Jews, Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, etc. The program does not promote one faith over another, nor does it diminish it. There isn’t a Catholic Scouting program, but some Scouting programs are administered by Catholics. Does that make sense? I heard the group with the largest number of troops is the Mormon churches, followed by the Methodists. Each troop is managed differently and no particular religion is pushed in the program. We have a few Jews, Catholics and several Protestants represented in our Troop sponsored by the Methodist Church. It’s not Catholic RE, but it’s not anybody’s RE, so not to worry.

The program is designed to assist in the proper maturing of the boy to manhood and the learning of the independence and team work required to make that transition. I know several mothers who have felt threatend by that. It’s a tough situation, I understand.

I’ve been in the program off and on for 12 years and have never heard of any tie to the Masons. Here is the Natinal Web page with information about the program. There is no secret society driving the program. It’s about teaching the Scout Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan to our boys. if any of those things are objectionable by your wife, then there is an issue bigger than we can solve.

 

[newbetx]

Very interesting posts. I have done some research on the material discussed. Also I am an Eagle Scout and CubMaster. I was raised Methodist and have begun the journey to be a Catholic. I believe where people confuse the MASON/SCOUTING connection is this. There is an organization with in Boy Scouts, called the ORDER OF THE ARROW. This is considered the Scouts Honor Society. Boys and adults must be voted into the org. BEST OF THE BEST kind of a thing. Its traditions are based on Native American lore, Lenni Lenape Indian more specifically. I believe the men that started the Order of the Arrow back in the 1920’s were Masons. My research indicates that they took the structure of the Masonic Organization and used it for the OA. There are 3 levels of membership in the OA. I htink there are three levels of Masons.

Each level is based on your deeds, or CHEERFUL SERVICE to others. You start out as an ORDEAL, then BROTHERHOOD, then VIGIL member. Basically this organization is the grunts of local councils. They clean up camps in the spring and tear down the camps in the fall. They do the work so Johnny can go to summer camp.

Does that help.

Oh, and one can avoid election to this portion of the organization. Just tell the Scoutmaster. Not that I’d recommend it, but I know one father that won’t let his kid into it. I’ll have to see if this is the reason. My son is a member and I’m proud to have him there.

 

[monicatholic]

our sons were scouts from the ages of 7 or 8 and our oldest earned his Eagle when he was just short of 18.

previously i was wrong that the OA badge was the only one to be worn lifetime, as my kid has both the religious knot and lifesaving knot (but earned other knots as well, i think???.)

newbetx, we restricted involvement in OS for these reasons, (as offered by Marauder as an apologetic, though we interpret them as a detriment. )

Back in the 80’s when I first got in they considered it secret. Occassionaly you will find “old guard” people within the OA that still think it is, but they are wrong. Now the ceremonies themselves are just “mysteries”. Even less of a mystery then the Knights of Columbus ceremony. Any parent that has a responsable request to see the ceremony can see the ceremony. Usually requests to see the ceremony just to see little Johnny receive his award are denied but if a parent wants to see the ceremony because they are concerned about the content or are concerned about hazing/youth protection issues are allowed.

our personal decision was such that it seemed unnecessary to involve ourselves in something with so many connotations. (that was in the mid-90’s.)

that a parent would like to restrict OA for their son should not be a decision that another adult should discourage. instead, a scout master should tell parents he’d be willing to answer any questions, that he respects their decision to make informed choices, that he won’t take it personally if they choose differently than he has.

different interpretations of OA aside, our son’s commanding officers (in Marines and in the federal super max prison where he works) have told him they see the Eagle Scout in him.

His Eagle Court of Honor was the high spot in his teen life.

 

[Cat]

I’ve been going to Holy Hour at our Adoration Chapel (24/7) during the weeknights this summer.

Once a week (can’t remember which evening), an elderly gentleman enters the Chapel for his Holy Hour. He is at least 80, and dressed in full Boy Scout uniform. The badges and awards are heavier than he is.

It seems to me that if the organization had any evil in it, the Lord would have convicted him by now in his Holy Hours.

The boys who are in his troop are blessed, IMO.

 

[Marauder]

our personal decision was such that it seemed unnecessary to involve ourselves in something with so many connotations. (that was in the mid-90’s.)

that a parent would like to restrict OA for their son should not be a decision that another adult should discourage. instead, a scout master should tell parents he’d be willing to answer any questions, that he respects their decision to make informed choices, that he won’t take it personally if they choose differently than he has.

Every parent has the right to allow their kids to do or not do any aspect of the program including OA. I personally just like each parent to have the facts when making their decision, not just hersay or “he said, she said” type of words. I am a Vigil member of the OA and a former Chapter Adviser in one of 3 largest OA lodges in the country. I am not bragging or sabre rattling, I am just saying that I know what the OA policies are and aren’t. Many “old guard” people will claim the ceremonies are secret and nobody can see them and other stuff like that. They aren’t. The first page of the ceremony book itself mentions that the ceremonies are mysteries and not secrets. Nowhere in the ceremony or outside of the ceremony does someone promise, vow or anything else to keep it secret. Any parent that has a legit request to see the ceremony is allowed. The only request is that the request be made in advance to weed out people that just want to see their son receive an award and sometimes other non-invasive methods can be used to alleviate their concerns (i.e. giving them a copy of the ceremony book, finding a trusted OA adult in their troop to go with them, etc.)

I have seen all the ceremonies numerous times and can attest there is nothing that goes against the Catholic faith in the ceremony. I know some very faithful priests that are in the OA that have no problem with the ceremony. The only time I saw anyone have a problem is someone (non-Catholic) that felt any mention of the word “spirit” was against their faith. Yes the word “spirit” exists in the program but the Great Spirit is obviously God as referenced in the ceremony.

The only aspect of the OA that may have religious issues are those people that decide to be on Indian dance teams. But that is only a extremly small portion of the program and it is totally optional. I would say based on my own estimates that only about 1-2% of OA members get into Indian dance.

Yes many Scouts do well both in and out of the OA. I have seen many Scouts come in get the flap and sash and never been seen again. I have also seen several scouts thrive due to the OA that were getting ready to drop out of their troop because they were bored and instead end up running council wide events, getting their Eagle and continue on as adult scouters.

It is your right to allow your kids to enter or not enter any aspect of the scouting program, but you need to make sure you are getting all the facts to make that decision.