J
jim1130
Guest
How many times does a Catholic have to explain the Eucharist to a non-Catholic before they understand? This is why I prefer to avoid Non-Catholic sites: Right off a non-Catholic Web site:
its amazing to me, that so many catholics here DO show that they are not fools who blindly believe in something, and who can so many times issue common sense, but yet in some areas, throw all that out the window and believe in something that is so far wrong and out there, one would HAVE to throw all common sense out the window.
the subject, the Eucharist.
now before i go even further, let me halt all the would be critics who just read to find error, without reading to see if they can even find any truth or understanding. dont think by replying, that the above statement can be used(against me) to say that “sure you believe in God, thats out there in human terms” or “the creation of the earth in 6 days, sure people would say that is foolish” etc etc(or similar silly replys that are off topic and subject). because you will find that all these issues and many more, can be proven without doubt, either from scripture or from Gods creation etc, in prayer, through the spirit of understanding, and with some common sense and sound judgement.
the Eucharist however, this is a unique subject. if you want to raise these issues, then great, open a new thread on the board. thats what its there for
i say unique, because the RCC itself attach that the Eucharist:
The Eucharist is a complex mystery. None of us—no matter how learned, no matter how holy—can fully grasp it. The Holy Spirit helps us to hand on to the next generation what we have received from the generations before us so that “the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth” (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, #8).
well, lets pull a scooby do, and see if it can be solved.
first, lets look at the two sides.
While the Catholic catechisms quote the passages that speak of Christ dying once, they also teach that the priest miraculously transforms the bread and wine into Christ’s real body, and that Jesus is then sacrificed anew. “The blood is real blood (it looks like wine and tastes like wine at Mass, but it is truly the Blood of Christ.”
without exception biblical Protestants teach that the sacrament is not a renewal or a revisitation of the bodily sacrifice of Christ. Rather it is a remembrance and a memorial use of symbols(bread/wine) blessed by God to the benefit of the humbled believer.
This contrast is far more than a controversy of words. It goes to the very heart of the difference between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity. Protestant faith denies that the church has the power to perform the mass’s “miracle of transubstantiation,” and it further denies that the Lord’s Supper’s purpose is to see accomplished the death of Christ all over again.
scriptures to note are:
1 Corinthians 11:24 1 Corinthians 11:28 1 Corinthians 11:26 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 Matthew 26:26-28 Mark 14:22-24 Luke 22:19-20 John 6:53-onward.(please take the time to read, and i urge you to read before and after, to get context!)
so what is this mystery? the main area to focus on is the transubstantiation. lets use some common sense and logic. if the bread, after transubstantiation is still bread i.e it looks like it, it smells like it, it has the same energy levels as it did before, its molecular make-up is exactly the same, and basically has no variation or change in any way, then it is still bread. you can argue using what ever means to try and explain how that bread is now flesh, but please tell me how. its a mystery as your church says, it just is.
now earlier i commented on common sense, so will you start to use it? is not something that dosnt change in any way what so ever, at all, a symbol? i have just given rational reasons for it, that have been and can be proven correct. but its still his flesh im sure you are saying.
so lets tackle it from another approach. the Eucharist is a sacrifice, specifically that of Christ again and again:
A Catholic mass is by definition the sacrifice of Christ (Catechism 1322, 1338). The Baltimore Catechism (Confraternity Edition of 1949) says, “Christ gives us His own body and blood in the holy Eucharist first, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorating and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross” (Catechism 356).
so scripture, sheds its light once more to say:
“Nor did He [Jesus Christ] enter heaven to offer himself again and again…”
-Hebrews 9:25 (NIV) (see Hebrews 9:25-10:18)
so why a sacrifice again and again? the verse above isnt in code, or difficult to understand. read it for yourself. maybe part of the mystery is that Jesus didnt enter heaven in the first place??? could help explain the mystery. but we know that Jesus did go to heaven, because scripture teaches he is at the side of God.
(con’t)
its amazing to me, that so many catholics here DO show that they are not fools who blindly believe in something, and who can so many times issue common sense, but yet in some areas, throw all that out the window and believe in something that is so far wrong and out there, one would HAVE to throw all common sense out the window.
the subject, the Eucharist.
now before i go even further, let me halt all the would be critics who just read to find error, without reading to see if they can even find any truth or understanding. dont think by replying, that the above statement can be used(against me) to say that “sure you believe in God, thats out there in human terms” or “the creation of the earth in 6 days, sure people would say that is foolish” etc etc(or similar silly replys that are off topic and subject). because you will find that all these issues and many more, can be proven without doubt, either from scripture or from Gods creation etc, in prayer, through the spirit of understanding, and with some common sense and sound judgement.
the Eucharist however, this is a unique subject. if you want to raise these issues, then great, open a new thread on the board. thats what its there for
i say unique, because the RCC itself attach that the Eucharist:
The Eucharist is a complex mystery. None of us—no matter how learned, no matter how holy—can fully grasp it. The Holy Spirit helps us to hand on to the next generation what we have received from the generations before us so that “the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth” (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, #8).
well, lets pull a scooby do, and see if it can be solved.
first, lets look at the two sides.
While the Catholic catechisms quote the passages that speak of Christ dying once, they also teach that the priest miraculously transforms the bread and wine into Christ’s real body, and that Jesus is then sacrificed anew. “The blood is real blood (it looks like wine and tastes like wine at Mass, but it is truly the Blood of Christ.”
without exception biblical Protestants teach that the sacrament is not a renewal or a revisitation of the bodily sacrifice of Christ. Rather it is a remembrance and a memorial use of symbols(bread/wine) blessed by God to the benefit of the humbled believer.
This contrast is far more than a controversy of words. It goes to the very heart of the difference between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity. Protestant faith denies that the church has the power to perform the mass’s “miracle of transubstantiation,” and it further denies that the Lord’s Supper’s purpose is to see accomplished the death of Christ all over again.
scriptures to note are:
1 Corinthians 11:24 1 Corinthians 11:28 1 Corinthians 11:26 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 Matthew 26:26-28 Mark 14:22-24 Luke 22:19-20 John 6:53-onward.(please take the time to read, and i urge you to read before and after, to get context!)
so what is this mystery? the main area to focus on is the transubstantiation. lets use some common sense and logic. if the bread, after transubstantiation is still bread i.e it looks like it, it smells like it, it has the same energy levels as it did before, its molecular make-up is exactly the same, and basically has no variation or change in any way, then it is still bread. you can argue using what ever means to try and explain how that bread is now flesh, but please tell me how. its a mystery as your church says, it just is.
now earlier i commented on common sense, so will you start to use it? is not something that dosnt change in any way what so ever, at all, a symbol? i have just given rational reasons for it, that have been and can be proven correct. but its still his flesh im sure you are saying.
so lets tackle it from another approach. the Eucharist is a sacrifice, specifically that of Christ again and again:
A Catholic mass is by definition the sacrifice of Christ (Catechism 1322, 1338). The Baltimore Catechism (Confraternity Edition of 1949) says, “Christ gives us His own body and blood in the holy Eucharist first, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorating and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross” (Catechism 356).
so scripture, sheds its light once more to say:
“Nor did He [Jesus Christ] enter heaven to offer himself again and again…”
-Hebrews 9:25 (NIV) (see Hebrews 9:25-10:18)
so why a sacrifice again and again? the verse above isnt in code, or difficult to understand. read it for yourself. maybe part of the mystery is that Jesus didnt enter heaven in the first place??? could help explain the mystery. but we know that Jesus did go to heaven, because scripture teaches he is at the side of God.
(con’t)
Seems to me that most times a calm explaination of our faith amongst nonCatholics stands a better chance of being understood and therefore more beneficial than a bare knuckles defense aimed at virulent anti-Catholics bent soley on attacking the faith. There are times (seasons) however, when a strong defence is necessary especially when others who are watching the defense may be scandalized if no such defense is offered.