Boys in seminary at very young age?

[HomeschoolDad]

In the past, how young were boys when they entered either minor seminary, or a school leading to it? It seems to me that I’ve heard 11 or 12 years old. Was this to avoid losing vocations by never allowing boys to consider any other alternatives?

 

[tafan2]

Perhaps it was that early in the middle ages in some monasteries. But the norm in most of the world prior to Vatican ii was around 14 or 15. Based on people I know, the drop out rate was quite high. I do not think they were not allowed to discern other vocations.

 

[GordonP]

Was this to avoid losing vocations by never allowing boys to consider any other alternatives?

There were times when boys were often initiated on a clerical path as young as puberty. But it wasn’t common at that time for people to make career choices for themselves. Those were often determined by the social status in their families. Younger children were often sent off to church careers because they could not inherit property. The boys often had no say in the matter. It wasn’t as if they could just pick their own careers as they do now, and social mobility was extremely limited.

Also, the idea of childhood as we conceive it today did not exist during the middle ages. Even among nobles, children who would inherit were expected to pull their weight from an early age, first as pages, then as squires, before being knighted in their mid to late teens.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

At this age, memories tend to fade with time, but it seems to me that I recall some Midwestern pre-seminary (or some similar institution) where boys were enrolled in their very early teens, in the 1950s and 1960s, with the understanding that they were to discern a priestly vocation. I think dating, when they grew to the age where this became a possibility, was discouraged lest a vocation be lost.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

But it wasn’t common at that time for people to make career choices for themselves. Those were often determined by the social status in their families. Younger children were often sent off to church careers because they could not inherit property.

Aside from the obvious problem with never being able to consider an alternative to celibacy, this actually makes some sense. As you note, there was little if any social mobility.

 

[phil19034]

Well, the truth is actually a little more complicated.

Many areas did not have schools in the modern sense. Boys who were sent for schooling often went to monasteries or friaries to learn how to read and write from the monks and/friars. Or sometimes the local parish was big enough to have a “school.” (Girls often went to convents for schooling.)

These were the first schools. Their first reading books were the scriptures, Litany of Prayers, Divine Office, etc so the could learn to read & write in the vernacular, in Latin, and whatever other lingua franca of the time.

Eventually, they would also learn about Philosophy, theology, advanced mathematics, etc

So it really wasn’t so much that kids were being sent to become priests at such a young age, but really that the only schools were the priests who had a vested interest in teaching the faith and recruiting future priests from the students.

 

[GordonP]

And class was a big factor, too. Feudal society was rigidly stratified by class. Also within the Church. Nobles who were sent off to monasteries and cathedral chapters became choir monks and prelates, and were educated. Those from the peasant class became lay brothers or lower ranked clergy.

And ecclesiastical positions were often quasi-inherited. Not father to son, but uncle to nephew. There were even quite a few popes who were nephews or grand nephews of a previous pope. And even one pope who was the uncle of a previous pope. Very few popes and bishops came from the peasant class. These positions were reserved for nobility, and later often influential burgher families, too, right up until Pope Paul VI. Family connections counted for everything. Your existence as an individual was not as important.

 

[CilladeRoma]

My diocese had a minor and major seminary right up until 1972 when the minor seminary closed. The major seminary closed in ther early 80’s.

The minor seminary was high school, boys were approximately 13-14 y.o. Some lived on campus and went on home on weekends/holidays others, who lived close by took the city bus or had other transportation. Their education was geared toward the study for the priesthood, but it was not “expected” that every boy become a priest, it was always seen as a time of discernment.

 

[CTBcin]

I know a priest who went to high school seminary. He would’ve entered at ~13-14 yrs old.

From what I know, the large majority of young men that went to high school seminary did not become priests. I was told that only about 1 in 10 boys that went to high school seminary actually went all the way through and became priests. The low yield proved to be financially unsustainable, which is why many high school seminaries eventually shut down. Many were gone by the 1960s even.

From what I’ve heard, high school seminaries were somewhat akin to boarding schools. Something similar to an all-boys Catholic high school.

 

[Pitcairn17]

And class was a big factor, too. Feudal society was rigidly stratified by class. Also within the Church. Nobles who were sent off to monasteries and cathedral chapters became choir monks and prelates, and were educated. Those from the peasant class became lay brothers or lower ranked clergy.

And ecclesiastical positions were often quasi-inherited. Not father to son, but uncle to nephew. There were even quite a few popes who were nephews or grand nephews of a previous pope. And even one pope who was the uncle of a previous pope. Very few popes and bishops came from the peasant class. These positions were reserved for nobility, and later often influential burgher families, too, right up until Pope Paul VI. Family connections counted for everything. Your existence as an individual was not as important.

Feudal? “High school seminaries” existed in my area well through the 1960’s. The popular impression was that the Church wanted to grab the boys early before they developed an interest in girls, and shelter them from exposure to the opposite sex. History has shown that this often led to the kind of stunted psychosexual development that fed into the abuse crisis.

 

[GordonP]

Feudal? “High school seminaries”

I wasn’t talking about high school seminaries.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The popular impression was that the Church wanted to grab the boys early before they developed an interest in girls, and shelter them from exposure to the opposite sex.

That’s the vibe I’ve gotten, just based on anecdotal evidence.

 

[poche]

People died very young in those days.

 

[Titivillus]

From what I know, the large majority of young men that went to high school seminary did not become priests. I was told that only about 1 in 10 boys that went to high school seminary actually went all the way through and became priests. The low yield proved to be financially unsustainable, which is why many high school seminaries eventually shut down. Many were gone by the 1960s even.

:raising_hand_man: I attended a high school seminary, which closed before my graduation year.

From my class of 21, exactly one was ordained to the priesthood.

 

[GEddie]

Not just the Middle Ages.

An old Irish priest once told me, that growing up in Co. Tipperary around 1950, his choices were “the Church, the army, or emigration to England.”

ICXC NIKA

 

[commenter]

“In minor seminaries erected to develop the seeds of vocations, the students should be prepared by special religious formation, particularly through appropriate spiritual direction, to follow Christ the Redeemer with generosity of spirit and purity of heart. Under the fatherly direction of the superiors, and with the proper cooperation of the parents, their daily routine should be in accord with the age, the character and the stage of development of adolescence and fully adapted to the norms of a healthy psychology. Nor should the fitting opportunity be lacking for social and cultural contacts and for contact with one’s own family.”
From V2 document on Training of Priests

 

[commenter]

In my diocese, the high school seminary closed in 1974. One problem is that it was a boarding school; thus, students were pulled away from daily contact with their parents’ Catholic marriage, their siblings, and had little connection with a parish. They were asked to prepare towards a commitment to celibacy, and obedience, very young.

I think some men later resented that they had been pushed too early, and tried to make up for lost time by “dating” etc after being ordained a decade or so.

I also think some of the angry clergy of the 1970s and later, were those who felt they had been pushed into the obedience track too soon.

But apparently the high school seminary had done well for so many years before the 1960s. Why?

I suspect that people matured earlier before 1960 than now.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

But apparently the high school seminary had done well for so many years before the 1960s. Why?

Because our society became a fundamentally different place beginning in the early 1960s. To pack it into the tightest possible nutshell, people became conscious of opportunities, alternatives, and different lifestyles. Television, higher education, and the ease of transportation had a lot to do with it. Civil rights and an unpopular war also played a part. And let’s not forget the sexual revolution, enabled in large part by “the Pill”.

I suspect that people matured earlier before 1960 than now.

Do you mean psychologically or physically? No doubt one “became an adult” in a psychological sense far earlier in those days. Physically, however, young people mature far earlier today. Diet may have a lot to do with it.

 

[twf]

Minor seminaries still exist… they’re just less common. My archdiocese (Vancouver) still has one. It’s hosted by the same Benedictine Abbey that hosts the major seminary.
When I lived in Santo Domingo, our apartment was literally next door to a minor seminary. I would go to Mass at their chapel.

 

[commenter]

I think "minor seminary’ used to go from 9th grade to second year college, then “major seminary” went another 6 years, likely a vestige of some European model. On recent years it was called High School, or Prep Sem, then 4 years mostly philosophy, then 4 years mostly Theology. (50 years ago, if you attended a general Catholic college instead, you still automatically got about 15 credits in Philosophy.)

I have read that nowadays, with most candidates entering after getting a B A degree, they may not have the philosophy background to fully grasp the necessary Theology.