Bp Fellay says total VII acceptance no longer a prerequisite!

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Has anyone seen this on DICI?
From DICI
What has changed is the fact that Rome no longer makes total acceptance of Vatican II a prerequisite for the canonical solution. Today, in Rome, some people regard a different understanding of the Council as something that is not decisive for the future of the Church, since the Church is more than the Council. Indeed, the Church cannot be reduced to the Council; she is much larger. Therefore we must strive to resolve more far-reaching problems. This new awareness can help us to understanding what is really happening: we are called to help bring to others the treasure of Tradition that we have been able to preserve.
So the attitude of the official Church is what changed; we did not. We were not the ones who asked for an agreement; the pope is the one who wants to recognize us. You may ask: why this change? We are still not in agreement doctrinally, and yet the pope wants to recognize us! Why? The answer is right in front of us: there are terribly important problems in the Church today. These problems must be addressed. We must set aside the secondary problems and deal with the major problems. This is the answer of one or another Roman prelate, although they will never say so openly; you have to read between the lines to understand.
And here is the full article, there’s much much more.

Isn’t this good news? Bp Fellay is talking as if a decision is soon coming, maybe in a matter of weeks? What about days? Please pray!

But what do you make of this!
 
Good.

How can Rome expect the faithful, practically speaking, to “totally recognize” something that is very confusing (Vat II docs) and, on the face of it, contrary to what the Church has previously taught, all without providing a clear explanation? Everybody knows that Vatican II wasn’t even a dogmatic council: there were no new dogmas defined. On the other hand, we have seen the dangers and destruction caused to the church as a body, and to millions of souls alike due to Vatican II’s “spirit”. It’s high time VII get in line with the rest of church history and officially say, with many an anathema, without any obfuscation or equivocation, what it means. Then we could all just get along.
 
Good.

How can Rome expect the faithful, practically speaking, to “totally recognize” something that is very confusing (Vat II docs) and, on the face of it, contrary to what the Church has previously taught, all without providing a clear explanation? Everybody knows that Vatican II wasn’t even a dogmatic council: there were no new dogmas defined. On the other hand, we have seen the dangers and destruction caused to the church as a body, and to millions of souls alike due to Vatican II’s “spirit”. It’s high time VII get in line with the rest of church history and officially say, with many an anathema, without any obfuscation or equivocation, what it means. Then we could all just get along.
And precisely where are the faithful free to publicly withhold total recognition from the authoritative pronouncements of an ecumencial council?
 
I read that article a few days ago and my reaction is that he is now coming out with these statements specifically to cool down some of the hot heads in the SSPX and to avoid any internal split. I am saying that because the tone of the article is quite different from the one of the letter that he sent to the other SSPX bishops. I think that Bp. Fellay is an astute and pragmatic man and that the SSPX is lucky to have him as a Superior General.
 
I read that article a few days ago and my reaction is that he is now coming out with these statements specifically to cool down some of the hot heads in the SSPX and to avoid any internal split. I am saying that because the tone of the article is quite different from the one of the letter that he sent to the other SSPX bishops. I think that Bp. Fellay is an astute and pragmatic man and that the SSPX is lucky to have him as a Superior General.
👍

That is what I thought as well!

He did say a split could be a possibility in his interview with the CNS, so I could see his effort to prevent such a thing.
 
And precisely where are the faithful free to publicly withhold total recognition from the authoritative pronouncements of an ecumencial council?
I addressed that in my previous post:

“on the face of it, contrary to what the Church has previously taught”

If it ain’t Catholic, then we don’t need to consent to it. If it is, THEY HAVE TO SHOW HOW IT FITS WITH EVERYTHING THAT CAME BEFORE. If they are unable to square certain teachings of today with certain teaching of the past, how much confidence in churchmen and V2 does that give you? You’d think that if it really does fit nicely into the 2000 years of the Catholic Faith they would be able to prove it…at some point. It’s been 40+ years. We’re not mormons. Just because the top guy says something it doesn’t automatically make it true.

Waiting…
 
SanctusPeccator;9397776:
And precisely where are the faithful free to publicly withhold total recognition from the authoritative pronouncements of an ecumencial council?
I addressed that in my previous post:

“on the face of it, contrary to what the Church has previously taught”

If it ain’t Catholic, then we don’t need to consent to it. If it is, THEY HAVE TO SHOW HOW IT FITS WITH EVERYTHING THAT CAME BEFORE. If they are unable to square certain teachings of today with certain teaching of the past, how much confidence in churchmen and V2 does that give you? You’d think that if it really does fit nicely into the 2000 years of the Catholic Faith they would be able to prove it…at some point. It’s been 40+ years. We’re not mormons. Just because the top guy says something it doesn’t automatically make it true.

Waiting…
Your response still begs the question: by what objective authority do any of the faithful have the canonical right to personally determine what is authentically “catholic” regarding an ecumenical council? Also, ecclesiastical history readily demonstrates the pronouncements of an ecumenical council are often not successfully implemented in orthodox accordance with the Magisterium decades (even centuries) after they are initially promulgated. For example, the foundational Nicene Creed from the First Council of Nicaea would not be triumphant for another fifty-six years! :eek:
 
Your response still begs the question: by what objective authority do any of the faithful have the canonical right to personally determine what is authentically “catholic” regarding an ecumenical council? Also, ecclesiastical history readily demonstrates the pronouncements of an ecumenical council are often not successfully implemented in orthodox accordance with the Magisterium decades (even centuries) after they are initially promulgated. For example, the foundational Nicene Creed from the First Council of Nicaea would not be triumphant for another fifty-six years! :eek:
I see what you did there. You just changed the question! Nice try 👍

A minute ago we were talking about withholding assent with regard to something that is questionably Catholic. “Hold fast…”

Nooooow apparently with your last post we’re talking about how the faithful can personally determine what is Catholic. Duh, the answer is “we can’t”, but that doesn’t mean I must be blindly obedient to the whims and off-the-cuff statements of the clergy. Any other curveballs or changes in the parameters you wanna throw out there?
 
SanctusPeccator;9398606:
Your response still begs the question: by what objective authority
do any of the faithful have the canonical right to personally determine what is authentically “catholic” regarding an ecumenical council? Also, ecclesiastical history readily demonstrates the pronouncements of an ecumenical council are often not successfully implemented in orthodox accordance with the Magisterium decades (even centuries) after they are initially promulgated. For example, the foundational Nicene Creed from the First Council of Nicaea would not be triumphant for another fifty-six years! :eek:
I see what you did there. You just changed the question! Nice try 👍

A minute ago we were talking about withholding assent with regard to something that is questionably Catholic. “Hold fast…”

Nooooow apparently with your last post we’re talking about how the faithful can personally determine what is Catholic. Duh, the answer is “we can’t”, but that doesn’t mean I must be blindly obedient to the whims and off-the-cuff statements of the clergy. Any other curveballs or changes in the parameters you wanna throw out there?
Admitting we cannot personally determine what is authentically “catholic” apropos of an ecumencial council further begs the question left unanswered: what objective authority allows the faithful to publicly withhold assent from the authoritative pronouncements of Vatican II?
 
Admitting we cannot personally determine what is authentically “catholic” apropos of an ecumencial council further begs the question left unanswered: what objective authority allows the faithful to publicly withhold assent from the authoritative pronouncements of Vatican II?
St Vincent of Lerins answered it:

How to Distinguish the True Faith from Heresy

At the moment when many Catholics are making, or considering making, compromises with Progressivism regarding the New Mass and Vatican II, it seems to us opportune to remember the criteria to maintain the true Catholic Faith given by St. Vincent de Lerins.

Facing these compromises, Catholics are taking sides – “I will take the position of my team, not your team.” This is a superficial approach. Each one of us is individually responsible before God for the right or wrong position he takes.

St. Vincent de Lerins

In the 5th century, St. Vincent of Lerins saw that the people were faced with various errors and heresies of Donatus, Arius, Photinus, Pelagius and others, and gave them this good advice on how they could know with security the true Catholic Faith. Even if it is taught by distinguished men or Prelates, the bad doctrine should not be accepted by Catholics, who should cling to Tradition and what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all [quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est]. Actually, he stated: "I have continually given the greatest pains and diligence to inquiring, from the greatest possible number of men outstanding in holiness and in doctrine, how I can secure a type of fixed and, as it were, general, guiding principle for distinguishing the true Catholic Faith from the degraded falsehoods of heresy.

"And the answer that I receive is always to this effect: That if I wish, or indeed if anyone wishes, to detect the deceits of heretics that arise and to avoid their snares and to keep healthy and sound in a robust faith, we ought, with the Lord’s help, to fortify our faith in a twofold manner, first, that is, by the authority of God’s Law, then, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

"Here, it may be, someone will ask: ‘Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and is in itself abundantly sufficient, what need is there to join to it the interpretation of the Church?’ The answer is that because of the profundity itself of Scripture, all men do not place the same interpretation upon it. The statements of the same writer are explained by different men in different ways, so much so that it seems almost possible to extract from it as many opinions as there are men. Novatian expounds in one way, Sabellius in another, Donatus in another, Arius, Eunomius and Macedonius in another, Photinus, Apollinaris and Priscillian in another, Jovinian, Pelagius and Caelestius in another, and latterly Nestorius in another. Therefore, because of the intricacies of error, which is so multiform, there is great need for the laying down of a rule for the exposition of Prophets and Apostles in accordance with the standard of the interpretation of the Catholic Church.

"Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself, we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, Bishops and Doctors alike.

"What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.

"But what if some novel contagions try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty.

"What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men.

“But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation.”

(The Vincentian Canon, in Commonitorium, chap IV, 434,
ed. Moxon, Cambridge Patristic Texts)
traditioninaction.org/religious/n026rp_Lerins_PreserveFaith.htm
 
Please, I don’t want this to be a Vatican II or Ordinary Form bash thread. Vatican II was 50 years ago, and it was a valid council. The Ordinary Form of the Mass, IS a valid Mass and we have no right to say it’s wrong.

Please don’t derail the thread from what I intended it to be, which was a good discussion about the SSPX’s regularisation.
 
I addressed that in my previous post:

“on the face of it, contrary to what the Church has previously taught”

If it ain’t Catholic, then we don’t need to consent to it. If it is, THEY HAVE TO SHOW HOW IT FITS WITH EVERYTHING THAT CAME BEFORE. If they are unable to square certain teachings of today with certain teaching of the past, how much confidence in churchmen and V2 does that give you? You’d think that if it really does fit nicely into the 2000 years of the Catholic Faith they would be able to prove it…at some point. It’s been 40+ years. We’re not mormons. Just because the top guy says something it doesn’t automatically make it true.

Waiting…
Don’t hold your breath.

The Church owes no one an explanation about anything, and no one has the right to demand proof of anything from the Voice of Christ, nor from the Vicar of Christ.

Proof that the Barque of Peter floats is when it pushes away from the dock and sails out of sight. You either punch your ticket and get on the boat or you don’t. No matter what anyone thnks about error in the Church or who anyone thinks they are that they need to save the Church from itself, the fact is that the Holy Father has announced that the boat is leaving soon, that it won’t be sitting at the dock indefinitely.

I wouldn’t wait too long to get on board.

-Tim-
 
SanctusPeccator;9398997:
Admitting we cannot personally determine what is authentically “catholic” apropos of an ecumencial council further begs the question left unanswered: what objective authority
allows the faithful to publicly withhold assent from the authoritative pronouncements of Vatican II?
St Vincent of Lerins answered it:

How to Distinguish the True Faith from Heresy

At the moment when many Catholics are making, or considering making, compromises with Progressivism regarding the New Mass and Vatican II, it seems to us opportune to remember the criteria to maintain the true Catholic Faith given by St. Vincent de Lerins.

Facing these compromises, Catholics are taking sides – “I will take the position of my team, not your team.” This is a superficial approach. Each one of us is individually responsible before God for the right or wrong position he takes.

St. Vincent de Lerins

In the 5th century, St. Vincent of Lerins saw that the people were faced with various errors and heresies of Donatus, Arius, Photinus, Pelagius and others, and gave them this good advice on how they could know with security the true Catholic Faith. Even if it is taught by distinguished men or Prelates, the bad doctrine should not be accepted by Catholics, who should cling to Tradition and what has been believed everywhere, always, and by all [quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est]. Actually, he stated: "I have continually given the greatest pains and diligence to inquiring, from the greatest possible number of men outstanding in holiness and in doctrine, how I can secure a type of fixed and, as it were, general, guiding principle for distinguishing the true Catholic Faith from the degraded falsehoods of heresy.

"And the answer that I receive is always to this effect: That if I wish, or indeed if anyone wishes, to detect the deceits of heretics that arise and to avoid their snares and to keep healthy and sound in a robust faith, we ought, with the Lord’s help, to fortify our faith in a twofold manner, first, that is, by the authority of God’s Law, then, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

"Here, it may be, someone will ask: ‘Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and is in itself abundantly sufficient, what need is there to join to it the interpretation of the Church?’ The answer is that because of the profundity itself of Scripture, all men do not place the same interpretation upon it. The statements of the same writer are explained by different men in different ways, so much so that it seems almost possible to extract from it as many opinions as there are men. Novatian expounds in one way, Sabellius in another, Donatus in another, Arius, Eunomius and Macedonius in another, Photinus, Apollinaris and Priscillian in another, Jovinian, Pelagius and Caelestius in another, and latterly Nestorius in another. Therefore, because of the intricacies of error, which is so multiform, there is great need for the laying down of a rule for the exposition of Prophets and Apostles in accordance with the standard of the interpretation of the Catholic Church.

"Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself, we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, Bishops and Doctors alike.

"What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.

"But what if some novel contagions try to infect the whole Church, and not merely a tiny part of it? Then he will take care to cleave to antiquity, which cannot now be led astray by any deceit of novelty.

"What if in antiquity itself two or three men, or it may be a city, or even a whole province be detected in error? Then he will take the greatest care to prefer the decrees of the ancient General Councils, if there are such, to the irresponsible ignorance of a few men.

“But what if some error arises regarding which nothing of this sort is to be found? Then he must do his best to compare the opinions of the Fathers and inquire their meaning, provided always that, though they belonged to diverse times and places, they yet continued in the faith and communion of the one Catholic Church; and let them be teachers approved and outstanding. And whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation.”

(The Vincentian Canon, in Commonitorium, chap IV, 434,
ed. Moxon, Cambridge Patristic Texts)
traditioninaction.org/religious/n026rp_Lerins_PreserveFaith.htm
First, quoting excerpts from the corpus of Saint Vincent of Lérins still fails to reasonably resolve the crux of this debate, i.e., what objective authority is spiritually entrusted to successfully determine if this ecclesiastical dictum actually applies? Second, citing the Tradition in Action website as an objective source is rather problematic catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=3026 ]
 
Please, I don’t want this to be a Vatican II or Ordinary Form bash thread. Vatican II was 50 years ago, and it was a valid council. The Ordinary Form of the Mass, IS a valid Mass and we have no right to say it’s wrong.

Please don’t derail the thread from what I intended it to be, which was a good discussion about the SSPX’s regularisation.
My sincere apologies if this tangential debate should distract from your OP, LoyalViews. 😦 Unfortunately, the future regularization of the S.S.P.X. is directly correlated with the central question as to what objective authority is entrusted to authentically interpret the pronouncements of an ecumenical council in light of the Deposit of Faith.
 
Please, I don’t want this to be a Vatican II or Ordinary Form bash thread. Vatican II was 50 years ago, and it was a valid council. The Ordinary Form of the Mass, IS a valid Mass and we have no right to say it’s wrong.

Please don’t derail the thread from what I intended it to be, which was a good discussion about the SSPX’s regularisation.
I believe that +Fellay would not say this brashly, and only does so to calm some supporters of the Society to help them be obedient to the Holy Father. I’ll keep praying.

Also, if what he says is correct, I hope it signals a new interest by the Holy See to examine the council and help clarify the meaning and significance of it’s documents. IMHO, a compendium or new syllabus of errors from Pope Benedict would be very helpful to a lot of people.
 
I believe that +Fellay would not say this brashly, and only does so to calm some supporters of the Society to help them be obedient to the Holy Father. I’ll keep praying.

Also, if what he says is correct, I hope it signals a new interest by the Holy See to examine the council and help clarify the meaning and significance of it’s documents. IMHO, a compendium or new syllabus of errors from Pope Benedict would be very helpful to a lot of people.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider has suggested exactly the same thing- a new syllabus of errors condemning heretical interpretations of the 2nd Vatican Council documents.

ewtn.com/library/bishops/schneider-proposte.htm

I think it would be a very good thing as well.

The Novus Ordo does not have a monopoly on modernism. It’s quite widespread in “traditional” communities as well, it just comes in different flavors.

I pray fervently for the Pope and all of our Bishops, especially Bishop Fellay that they may have courage and wisdom at this time.

Pax Christi
 
Don’t hold your breath.

The Church owes no one an explanation about anything, and no one has the right to demand proof of anything from the Voice of Christ, nor from the Vicar of Christ.

Proof that the Barque of Peter floats is when it pushes away from the dock and sails out of sight. You either punch your ticket and get on the boat or you don’t. No matter what anyone thnks about error in the Church or who anyone thinks they are that they need to save the Church from itself, the fact is that the Holy Father has announced that the boat is leaving soon, that it won’t be sitting at the dock indefinitely.

I wouldn’t wait too long to get on board.

-Tim-
That sounds good, but that is not what is happening is it?

The Vicar of Christ has decided that it is worthwhile to engage in conversation and negotiation with the SSPX. We can only guess at the reason why. My guess is that even though the SSPX is wrong in certain ways, they are right in their desire to maintain our Catholic traditions.

So the Vicar of Christ is not taking this all or nothing approach.

Why should we?
 
That sounds good, but that is not what is happening is it?

The Vicar of Christ has decided that it is worthwhile to engage in conversation and negotiation with the SSPX. We can only guess at the reason why. My guess is that even though the SSPX is wrong in certain ways, they are right in their desire to maintain our Catholic traditions.

So the Vicar of Christ is not taking this all or nothing approach.

Why should we?
Because the Marks of the Church are that it is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, NOT “choose any 3 out of 4.” Because “our Catholic traditions” don’t include the freedom to pick and choose among the declarations of a valid Ecumenical Council. Because allowing one group - and a dissident, schismatic one at that - the right to choose certain Magisterial teachings to ignore is a move down the most slippery of slopes. Were a “liberal” group to make such demands, it would rightfully be decried around here. Apparently a “traditionalist” group (more properly called a schismatic group) gets the benefit of a doublethink mindset when it comes to questioning / doubting / challenging the teachings of a Council.
 
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