Bp. Trautman & the Liturgy Translations [Welborn]

[Catholic_Opinion]

About a month ago, Bishop Trautman (Erie), chair of the USCCB Committee on Liturgy, who has been vocal in his criticisms of various liturgical signals and signs coming from Rome, wrote a brief critique of the proposed new translation of…

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[Ilroy]

About a month ago, Bishop Trautman (Erie), chair of the USCCB Committee on Liturgy, who has been vocal in his criticisms of various liturgical signals and signs coming from Rome, wrote a brief critique of the proposed new translation of…

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Methinks the good Bishop doth protest too much.
From the article it appears as though he thinks the average Catholic is much more dumber than we actually is…

From article:
In the new Missal you will hear awkward phrases like “We pray you bid.” This is not American English. Ponder these concrete examples and judge for yourselves.

This is a great reason TO have these improvements in the missal. The use of the word pray here is exactly the way we use the word whilst saying that we pray to Mary etc.

I for one am looking forward to the improvements that are supposed to be coming.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

His Excellency has over the years offered more than sufficient evidence that he is unqualified to head up any sort of commitee on the liturgy, and I’m glad someone has finally expressed to him the common indignation of those he has been labeling as idiots all this time.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I have seen Bishop Trautman get a bad rap in these forums over the course of several threads now.

Go read his writing published in the newest issue of Pastoral Music, published by NPM. He has written a wonderful commentary, worthy of reading and discussion on the merits and downfalls of the new translations of the mass.

 

[THurifer2]

I have seen Bishop Trautman get a bad rap in these forums over the course of several threads now.

Go read his writing published in the newest issue of Pastoral Music, published by NPM. He has written a wonderful commentary, worthy of reading and discussion on the merits and downfalls of the new translations of the mass.

THis is better reading by Geroge Weigel…it is a wonderful commentary on the merits and downfalls of Bp. Trautmans’ understanding of John and Mary Catholic. archden.org/dcr//news.php?e=424&s=3&a=8902

I will put Bp Trautmans writing on my to do list…way at the bottom of my to-do list.

 

[scylla]

His reasons are inconsistant as Spanish speaking Catholics have had a better translation for years.

It always makes me smile when I say a “Y con tu Espíritu” at Mass in Spanish and then at English Mass we say and “also with you”

Whaaa?

Does Bishop Trautman care about truth? Or does he just want us to feel good and have comfortable?

Now he is saying to us to speak up and try to vote? I think the Bishop has been influenced a little too much by the American culture. While we Catholics have suffered over a crummy translation obediently saying it each time we go to Mass,now that we finally might get a relief he wants none?

I will trust him a lot more when he straightens out Joan Chittister and acts like truth matters then we should maybe pay attention to him. We need to pray for him and obedience to Rome.

We are Roman Catholics, not American Catholics.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[rwoehmke]

Some of the translations are understandable, others are very clumsy at best if one expects John and Mary Catholic to comprehend what is being said. I know all of you folks, including George Weigel are very intelligent, but if many of the folks who write posts on these forums are typical John and Mary Catholic, we are in trouble. I would think that the goal would be to make the liturgy understandable to at least the average Catholic. In my opinion they have failed.

 

[THurifer2]

We are Roman Catholics, not American Catholics.

In Christ
Scylla

WE (you and I) are cut from the same RUG. I have some really really big reservations regarding the USCCB and their allegence to ROME.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

Some of the translations are understandable, others are very clumsy at best if one expects John and Mary Catholic to comprehend what is being said. I know all of you folks, including George Weigel are very intelligent, but if many of the folks who write posts on these forums are typical John and Mary Catholic, we are in trouble. I would think that the goal would be to make the liturgy understandable to at least the average Catholic. In my opinion they have failed.

If the average Catholic is not very faith-savvy (to use the modern lingo, just in case:wink: ) rwoehmke would suggest that we keep them in that state? Wouldn’t it be more charitable (in the sense of loving, just in case) to offer them some stretch?

In any case, Bishop Trautman’s comments on the orations from the Missal seem overly vicious for the moment, granted that all these prayers he mentioned belonged to ICEL’s draft translation, not the actual ones that are submitted for canonical approval and use. Many people had violent objections to the initial drafts for the Order of Mass, but from the final version put out by ICEL and which I had seen, none of the clumsy language remained. There were new terms and new expressions to be sure, but we must not commit the mistake of linking unfamiliar terms with clumsiness. And from what I know, these expressions were included because they were from the greater part of the Church’s liturgical and theological tradition.

On the bright side, Bishop Trautman’s second tenure in BCL is coming to an end. :extrahappy: Alleluia! Deo gratias! And the next head of the committee has written nicely about recovering the sacred in the liturgy. It looks like the final leg of the translation of the Roman Missal would proceed according to plan.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

See **Liturgical Translation: A Question of Truth **by Bishop Peter J. Elliot in the current issue of Adoremus.

Lying is a sin. Then, we may well ask, has our worship in the English language involved telling lies for nearly forty years? I regret to say that to a certain extent it has. This is evident, first, in many demonstrable instances at the obvious level of mistranslation through omission, distortion, or the blurring of language that bears doctrinal truth. Secondly, it may be discerned in more subtle ways — as the undermining of the truth of the mystery and above all as the creation of a dull mood that drains away the truth of Christian worship. This is why it is important to redefine the debate between the two contrasting ICEL translations in ethical terms.

 

[havemercy]

From Fr. Z:

His Excellency Donald W. Trautman, the Erie bishop in Pennsylvania, Chairone of the Bishops Commitee on Liturgy, and general enemy of the Holy See’s norms for liturgical translation had an article in that bastion of liturgical wisdom America magazine. I wrote something about it when it came out way back in May, but the whole thing was so warmed over that I have forgotten where it put it.

There is nothing new in his Excellency’s article. Nothing. He has been pushing the same argument for years now.

It boils down to this: you are too stupid to understand an accurately translated prayer. Because you are too stupid, because the prayers are tooo haaard for you to understand, His Excellency wants to you have mashed carrots and goop instead of a rare T-Bone and structured Cab, like mommy and daddy do for their kiddies.

The jarred peas His Excellency wants to nourish you with is made with blender setting “Contemporary Relevance”. His Excellency is of the mind that liturgical language must speak to you immediately, without you having to do any work, like, thinking, pondering, listening carefully, or knowing any big words. Like the contents of a blender, the translations will have to be in perpetual motion to keep up with changing trends in language and expression (and education).

An exagerated version (but not by much) of what we are talking about is at Gerald’s place, to whom I tip the … you know, the funny priest hat o{]:¬)

A reader (John Pritchett) has gotten his hands on a Trautman draft of the Mass, apparently the version relevant for white teenagers:

*Mass of Trautman*
**Priest: **Uhm, like, hey guys, we need to, you know, get started, so let’s do the cross thingy.  OK, so now we’re gonna say sorry and stuff to God because, you know
what? Nobody’s perfect.
**All: **I’m sorry if anything I did was offensive. I didn’t mean to hurt anyone. My bad.
**Priest:** Ok, let’s, like, talk to God now and listen to the stories in the book.
**Lector:** [lector reads the day’s selection] This is from that book from God.
**All: **Thanks God.
**Cantor: **Now you all are gonna repeat after me, like row row row your boat and I’ll sing some stuff from the book.
**Priest: **Uhm, This next part is really important so let’s everybody stand up and do the cross thingy on our heads, mouths and chest.
Hey, peace y’all.
**All: **Right back atcha.
[the priest reads the Gospel of the day]
**Priest:** Jesus did this.
**All:** Thanks Jesus.
**Priest:** [gives pastoral, easily comprehensible homily]
**Priest:** Hey guys, now let’s say that long thing that talks about what we think about and stuff.
**All:** We like God.  God is cool and really nice because He made me and this whole world – which by the way – we are totally polluting and it’s getting hot.  Jesus was born in a little barn and every Christmas we have a play during church but then he died. But you know what? He loves me and wants me to be happy.  There’s this spirit that talks to us in a book and he makes things live.  I like my church because everyone here is so nice and the priest is nice and we sing nice songs about nice stuff and later when we get old and icky, after we die, we all get to go to heaven with Jesus. He’s really cool by the way. Amen.
**Priest:** Now let’s pray for a bunch of stuff.
[intentions are prayed]
**Priest:** hey you guys in the back? Can y’all carry that basket and pitcher up here? That’d help a lot. Thanks.
**Priest: **Hey y’all, be peaceful and stuff.
**All: **You too.
**Priest:** Let’s pray to God and, you know.
**All: **yeah, that’d be nice.
**Priest: **You know what? Angels and stuff sing to God so let’s sing along with them.
**All: **Hey God. 
You are way bigger than us.
You make the world happy.
We love you big guy.
YAY!
Jesus liked you and he was cool.
YAY!
**Priest: **A long time ago, at dinner, Jesus gave His friend’s some bread and wine and stuff.
Because Jesus likes us, He wants us to have bread and wine too.
God wants us to have this snack also.
And you know what?
We really like snacks so let’s tell God and Jesus and that Spirit gal thanks.

** All:** Yeah…Thanks.
[all present themselves for communion]
** Priest: **(holding out a wicker basket) Uhm, like, here’s some bread for you from God.
**Recipient: **Yum, that’s good and nutty, is it whole grain by the way? I like it. Now where’s that dude with the vino?

If there is enough interest, I will fisk His Excellency’s article, but it is cliche stuff. His Excellency is recycling.

wdtprs.com/blog/2007/06/his-excellency-bishop-trautmans-article-in-america/

 

[Caesar]

This is not an isolated example. While the latest ICEL translations for the Proper of the Saints and the Commons are improved, we still encounter the following: “O God, who suffused blessed John with the spirit of mercy” (Collect for March 8) and “Cyril, an unvanquished champion of the divine motherhood” (Collect for June 27) and odd expressions like “What you have charged us to believe will taste sweet to the heart” (Collect for April 21). Does the heart “taste?”

Apparently Bishop Trautman is unable to percieve poetic imagery.

All liturgy is pastoral. If translated texts are to be the authentic prayer of the people, they must be owned by the people and expressed in the contemporary language of their culture. To what extent are the new prayers of the Missal truly pastoral? Do these new texts communicate in the living language of the worshipping assembly?

Reminds me of this:

Ordo Missae Cum Populo – 2007 Edition

Priest:
My peeps, let’s roll with the Lord, givin’ Him props and love

Congregation:
Yo, Bid Daddy upstairs (Our Father, who art in heaven)
You be chillin (Hallowed be thy name)
So be yo hood (Thy Kingdom come)
You be sayin’ it, I be doin’ it (Thy will be done)
In this here hood and yo’s (On earth as it is in heaven)
Gimme some eats (Give us this day our daily bread)
And cut me some slack, (And forgive us our trespasses)
Sos I be doin’ it to dem dat diss me (As we forgive those who trespass against us)
don’t be pushing me into no jive (And lead us not into temptation)
and keep dem Crips away (But deliver us from evil)
‘Cause you always be da Man (For thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory forever and ever.)
Aaa-men (Amen)

How will John and Mary Catholic relate to the new words of the Creed: “consubstantial to the Father” and “incarnate of the Virgin Mary?” Will they understand the following words from the various new Collects: “sullied”, “unfeigned”, “ineffable”, “gibbet”, “wrought”, “thwart?” Will the assembly understand the fourth paragraph of the Blessing of Baptismal Water which has 56 words or 11 lines in one sentence? In the Preface of the Chrism Mass there are 10 lines in one sentence. How pastoral are the new Collects when they are all in one single sentence containing a jumble of subordinate clauses and commas?

I should hope anyone with a grade 6 education would be able to understand the meanings of the words “sullied”, “unfeigned”, “ineffable”, “gibbet”, “wrought” and “thwart". How stupid the Bishop must think we all are.

Will the priest and people understand the words of Eucharistic Prayer II: “Make holy these gifts, we pray, by the dew of your Spirit?” This translation was among the top ten texts considered most problematic by the U.S. Bishops in their consultation, but it was not changed by ICEL.

Well, forgetting the laity for a second, if the priest doesnt know what that means, I’d say that is a sure sign that Trautman’s Diocesan seminary is in need of some reform (that is, if there are any seminarians left). And as for the people, yes I think they will understand that.

The Council Fathers of Vatican II had a pastoral sense and focused on John and Mary Catholic. Why have the new translations become so problematic, so non-pastoral? What is the basic difficulty?

Perhaps if we focused on God for once instead of worrying about whether or not John and Mary Catholic can understand the word “consubstantial” we would have no need for these discussions.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

THis is better reading by Geroge Weigel…it is a wonderful commentary on the merits and downfalls of Bp. Trautmans’ understanding of John and Mary Catholic. archden.org/dcr//news.php?e=424&s=3&a=8902

I will put Bp Trautmans writing on my to do list…way at the bottom of my to-do list.

Let me get this straight.

You won’t read what he has to say, all you will read is someone else’s critique of him, and you will feel free to agree with the one side you did read that he is wrong?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

WE (you and I) are cut from the same RUG. I have some really really big reservations regarding the USCCB and their allegence to ROME.

This isn’t an issue of the USCCB being allegiant to Rome.

Anytime Rome makes changes such as these, they are given to the national council of Catholic bishops of the region(s) to be affected and the bishops debate, argue, persist, etc. with Rome for what THEY want the changes to be. Compromises are often the result.

I can recall hearing a story once about how India was given some sort of special indult regarding the celebration of Marriage after the bishops there pitched a fit about cultural considerations in that place.

 

[Caesar]

This isn’t an issue of the USCCB being allegiant to Rome.

Anytime Rome makes changes such as these, they are given to the national council of Catholic bishops of the region(s) to be affected and the bishops debate, argue, persist, etc. with Rome for what THEY want the changes to be. Compromises are often the result.

I can recall hearing a story once about how India was given some sort of special indult regarding the celebration of Marriage after the bishops there pitched a fit about cultural considerations in that place.

And yet, as with the pro multis issue, direct orders can come from Rome.

Unfortunately, this idea of regional Episcopal Councils has backfired. Rather then mainting the hierarchy of the Church, these councils undermine it and wrestle power from Rome.

 

[bear06]

His Excellency has over the years offered more than sufficient evidence that he is unqualified to head up any sort of commitee on the liturgy, and I’m glad someone has finally expressed to him the common indignation of those he has been labeling as idiots all this time.

 

[THurifer2]

Let me get this straight.

You won’t read what he has to say, all you will read is someone else’s critique of him, and you will feel free to agree with the one side you did read that he is wrong?

At first I was going to say that no I wouldn’t read what he has to say and go on someone elses critique the “someone else” has a reputation for being one of the most respected Catholic writers of Today and Bp. Truatman is known for disdain for anything that comes from rome…

Then I realized that I did in fact read Trautmans message to liturgists. SO I guess I did read it before I read the weigel piece.

 

[frommi]

And yet, as with the pro multis issue, direct orders can come from Rome.

Unfortunately, this idea of regional Episcopal Councils has backfired. Rather then mainting the hierarchy of the Church, these councils undermine it and wrestle power from Rome.

Wait a minute…that sort of implies that all ‘power’ rests with Rome…

In theory, an individual bishop has more power than the entire episcopal conference of his country.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Well, forgetting the laity for a second, if the priest doesnt know what that means, I’d say that is a sure sign that Trautman’s Diocesan seminary is in need of some reform (that is, if there are any seminarians left). And as for the people, yes I think they will understand that.

We have about 20 seminarians.
I know of 3 who dropped out after a year. But 2 were ordained this year!

 

[Caesar]

Wait a minute…that sort of implies that all ‘power’ rests with Rome…

In theory, an individual bishop has more power than the entire episcopal conference of his country.

Welcome to the Roman Catholic Church. You would do well to read Matthew 16-20 and remember that the Church is a hierarchy, and supreme power rests with the Roman Pontiff who is the Vicar of Christ and exercises monarchial power over all other Bishops.