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JuniperoSerra
Guest
That aguardiente is still pretty much brandy except for the fact that it’s not aged in wooden barrels…
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FrDavid96
Guest
You’ve done an excellent job of proving your own ignorance.
The fact that you are unaware of something proves nothing beyond the fact that you do know know it. It certainly does not make it untrue.
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Micosil
Guest
Hello, Father.
I had a question. You said that the wine must be evaluated based on how it is made, and not the description on the bottle. How exactly is the method of production discerned, from the winery’s description, or from some sort of chemical analysis? I ask because, say for example, the winery’s description matches what would be valid matter for sacramental use – but there’s been a mix-up of some sort and the description is wrong, and the liquid inside the bottle isn’t actually valid matter for sacramental use. Are there any safeguards in place to prevent this sort of situation from happening?
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes, there are safeguards. The bishop (again, or his vicar) discusses the whole process with the winemaker. Questions like “do you add sugar?” or “do you add fruit juices?” or “do you add fresh grapes?” etc. etc. There are a lot of different things (processes) that can make a wine not-acceptable for sacramental use, even though those processes might be considered perfectly normal for winemakers. For example, it’s not unusual for them to add something to make one year’s wine a little sweeter in order to be consistent with past year’s vintages. They can do that without changing anything at all on the label (government regulations allow that sort of thing, but within established limits). The point is that even if the government allows it, and it does not have to be disclosed on the label, it’s still not valid for Mass.
In the case of wines that are bottled and labeled specifically for sacramental use, there is usually a longstanding relationship between the vintner and the diocese. The winery knows (because they’ve been told) what they can do and what they cannot do.
If it’s a matter of wines that have been approved, but are not specifically labeled as altar wines, that’s going to depend on the relationship between the diocese and the vintner. A bishop might issue a decree saying that the wine is acceptable, but at the same time, send a clear message to the winemaker “this is on the condition that nothing changes about how you make that particular wine. If there is a change, notify us.” (or something to that effect). These approvals might be ongoing, or they might have to be renewed with each year’s vintage.
If a winery is making something that they specifically label as “Altar Wine” or something similar, and they have the bishop’s approval, then that is an indication they they’re serious about producing wine that’s valid matter. If they didn’t care, then they wouldn’t bother getting approval. It’s safe to say that they won’t change anything without being in dialogue with the bishop.
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FrDavid96
Guest
I do have to clarify however, that there are times when we can easily eliminate a wine by reading the label. Clearly anything that says “a blend of wine and raspberries” would not be valid matter. In the other extreme, a wine that’s labeled as sacramental wine and states that it has ecclesiastical approbation can be judged by the label.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Am I the only one who is a bit “thrown” when they use white wine? I mean the Blood of Christ should be red, no? 
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Micosil
Guest
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thistle
Guest
Its not a red herring. I am making the point that even if Protestants used the valid wine as at a Catholic Mass there would be no Real Presence of Christ because Protestant priests do not have valid orders.
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InThePew
Guest
Well yes… and no! It doesn’t have to be red wine but, that said, it does obviously look better. that said, I know what you mean by being a bit “thrown”; although its not somehting I see a lot, I do find it a bit odd!Am I the only one who is a bit “thrown” when they use white wine? I mean the Blood of Christ should be red, no?
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
There ya go.
I mean,
- blood is RED.
- I am unaware of a red wine shortage (thank goodness
), so
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
Wow, such harsh words. In all actuality it’s you that’s unaware of the truth in this instance.
There’s nothing to “sacramental wines” except that they cost more, pure and simple. Any grape wine will do fine. If it has something added that would make it unacceptable matter, it will be listed on the label by law. Most “sacramental” wines do have sulfites added to them, FYI.
Port is also acceptable. There’s no Church document you can produce that proves otherwise. Before attempting to give advice, I suggest you do your homework next time.
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JuniperoSerra
Guest
This is so much marketing malarkey! Wines are not “approved by bishops.” Some sacramental wine makers make the claim that their wines conform to canon law, but that’s the extent of it.
To suggest that companies making such claims notify the bishop in their diocese if they make a change to their process is out and out bunkum. Let’s see some of those “decrees” you mention.
Ignorance indeed.
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Micosil
Guest
You realize FrDavid96 is a priest, right? In that capacity, he’s a minister of the Eucharist, so it’s reasonable to expect he would have knowledge about this topic.
I would most definitely take his word over yours when it comes to this specific topic.
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FrDavid96
Guest
It doesn’t matter.There ya go.
I mean,
why even use white? I am confused
- blood is RED.
- I am unaware of a red wine shortage (thank goodness
It comes down to nothing more than the personal preference of whoever makes the final decision on what the parish buys.
I’ve seen a lot of different reasons (many of them posted on CAF over the years) as to why someone chooses a particular wine color. Same with sweet/dry or light/heavy and anything else.
Sometimes, there is “no reason.” Decades ago, a pastor chose a wine. The parish just keeps re-ordering the same wine because no one there ever bothered to think about switching.
My personal preference is for red (not that it matters). But I do like to change it occasionally. Especially if I find a new source for altar wine, I like to get a mixed-case just to try different types.
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MilesVitae
Guest
Father David,
Thanks for the answer (and the correction on the use of the word “port” - I ought to have been more careful with my terminology
).
I am still not certain, however, that I understand what it is about most ports that is not sacramentally valid. Is it the higher alcohol content you mentioned?
Thanks for the answer (and the correction on the use of the word “port” - I ought to have been more careful with my terminology
).I am still not certain, however, that I understand what it is about most ports that is not sacramentally valid. Is it the higher alcohol content you mentioned?
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MilesVitae
Guest
Ah, thank you, I knew it was grape spirit of some sort.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes. Most (not all, but most, at least those that are typically imported to the U.S.) have an alcohol content beyond what the Church permits.Father David,
Thanks for the answer (and the correction on the use of the word “port” - I ought to have been more careful with my terminology
I am still not certain, however, that I understand what it is about most ports that is not sacramentally valid. Is it the higher alcohol content you mentioned?
I mentioned this a few posts ago (but it can get lost). Yeast cannot survive in an environment above 18% alcohol (this is a generalization of course, some strains have less tolerance). That means, that when making wine naturally—meaning, just squeeze the grapes and let the juice ferment without adding anything else–the yeast will turn the juice into wine by making sugar into alcohol, but once the alcohol content reaches 18% the yeast dies (because the alcohol kills it) and whatever sugar remains makes the wine sweet. That’s why the Church has a maximum content of 18%. There is no theological significance to the number, it’s simply the number that the Church uses by observing the natural processes.
Port Wine adds additional alcohol to the wine (by various means). If that wine exceeds 18% alcohol, it no longer meets the Church’s standard for valid matter. Most port wines do exceed 18%.
Keep in mind though that this is just one criteria. Someone might make a wine called “port” that uses alcohol from distilled grains or potatoes. That’s why the Church (again, usually this is the local bishop) has to investigate every step of the process of making any particular variety of wine. One vintner might make a “California Port” that’s valid for the altar, while another company likewise makes a “California Port” but that one is not valid matter.
Another criteria is fresh grape juice. Adding fresh grape juice means that the wine is not acceptable for the altar. In the U.S. vintners are permitted to add small amounts of fresh juice to a wine to make it sweeter. They often do this because they want one year’s bottling to be consistent with the previous years’. If it’s a small amount, they can do this without disclosing anything on the label. That’s why I keep insisting that one cannot simply read the label.
Modern day winemakers have all sorts of techniques that they use to produce good quality wine. In biblical times, they did little more than squeeze the grapes, store the juice, and let nature take over, even though they did have different ways of doing that that produced different wines (like storing the juice in clay vats or storing it above or below ground). Most modern winemakers prefer a different variety of yeast over that which grows naturally on the outside of the grape. That means they must first kill the natural yeast before adding the preferred strain. That’s just one more example of how some process might (I say might) exclude that wine for use at the altar. [As an aside, substituting the yeast is permitted].
Someone who understands the Church’s laws and norms for valid matter must contact the vintner and inquire into every single step of the process before knowing whether or not any particular version of wine is valid for use at the altar.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Thank you for the response, Father!
May God bless you!
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Shirtless
Guest
Frankly, I do not see why this matter concerns the laity. Certainly the church has the acquisition of wine for use at Mass under control.
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FrDavid96
Guest
No harm in having a conversation.Frankly, I do not see why this matter concerns the laity. Certainly the church has the acquisition of wine for use at Mass under control.
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