Bread and Wine vs. Wafer

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Interesting question.

It was Saint John Chrysostom who told us to receive the Holy Bread of Christ in our hand, right hand on palm of left hand to form a cross.

But it was also Saint John Chrysostom who changed this very quickly and introduced the use of the Spoon. This was because of the large influx on new converts during his own lifetime. This was the fourth century and the Church had been freed from persecution and subsequently overwhelmed with converts from paganism.
Another interesting qeustion. If the Orthodox church is the church of Christ, would a new liturgy be accepted in Her? For instance, St. John Chrysostom’s liturgy was accepted right away, without any ecumenical councils or whatever. Would the same hold true today?
 
This Zenit article indicates that the consecration was during a Latin-Rite mass. Admittedly not the strongest historical evidence, but at least its a reputable outside source for the contrary position.Can you point us to some sources for your position? It is very interesting.
Let us assume that for some reason a Byzantine monk was serving according to the Latin rite. Highly unlikely in itself.

Even so, in those days he would have been using leavened bread in either rite.

I have posted the evidence in Message 19 from Roman Catholic scholars, Jungman, O’Shea and Emminghaus.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2840335&postcount=19
 
Let us assume that for some reason a Byzantine monk was serving according to the Latin rite. Highly unlikely in itself.

Even so, in those days he would have been using leavened bread in either rite.

I have posted the evidence in Message 19 from Roman Catholic scholars, Jungman, O’Shea and Emminghaus.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2840335&postcount=19
Fr Ambrose, you are aware, are you not, that the Eucharistic Host-turned- flesh of Lanciano is still in existence, having been preserved for posterity, and quite definitely a wafer-style host?

‘The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back’

Source
 
Fr Ambrose, you are aware, are you not, that the Eucharistic Host-turned- flesh of Lanciano is still in existence,
Yes, I am aware.
'The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church
The Catholic Encyclopedia says that the use of the large hosts for priests did not come into the Latin Church until the 11th century. Lanciano precedes this by 300 plus years.

But of course the 1913 Encyclopedia is out of date on this matter. Roman Catholic scholars now say that the Latin rite at the time of Lanciano was using leavened bread. Please see message 19.

But there is no doubt that the Church of Rome used leavened bread, and not unleavened bread, for the first 1000 years while she was in communion with the Churches of the East. The change to the present use of unleavened bread was taking place at the same time as the Great Schism between us.

Fr. Joseph Jungman – in his book The Mass of the Roman Rite – states that,

"In the West, various ordinances appeared from the ninth century on, all demanding the exclusive use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist. A growing solicitude for the Blessed Sacrament and a desire to employ only the best and whitest bread, along with various scriptural considerations – all favored this development.

“Still, the new custom did not come into exclusive vogue until the middle of the eleventh century. Particularly in Rome it was not universally accepted till after the general infiltration of various usages from the North” [Rome adopted unleavened bread only a few years after the schism with the East.]

– Joseph Jungman, The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume II, pages 33-34

And Fr. Jungman goes on to say that,

“. . . the opinion put forward by J. Mabillon, Dissertatio de pane eucharistia, in his answer to the Jesuit J. Sirmond, Disquisitio de azymo, namely, that in the West it was always the practice to use only unleavened bread, is no longer tenable

– Jungman, The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume II, page 33.

Now, the fact that the West changed its practice and began using unleavened bread in the 8th and 9th century – instead of the traditional leavened bread – is confirmed by the research of Fr. William O’Shea, who noted that along with various other innovative practices from Northern Europe, the use of unleavened bread began to infiltrate into the Roman liturgy at the end of the first millennium, because as he put it,

“Another change introduced into the Roman Rite in France and Germany at the time * was the use of unleavened bread and of thin white wafers or hosts instead of the loaves of leavened bread used hitherto”

– Fr. William O’Shea, The Worship of the Church, page 128.

Moreover, this change in Western liturgical practice was also noted by Dr. Johannes H. Emminghaus in his book, The Eucharist: Essence, Form, Celebration, because as he said:

“The Eucharistic bread has been unleavened in the Latin rite since the 8th century – that is, it is prepared simply from flour and water, without the addition of leaven or yeast. . . . in the first millennium of the Church’s history, both in East and West, the bread normally used for the Eucharist was ordinary ‘daily bread,’ that is, leavened bread, and the Eastern Church uses it still today; for the most part, they strictly forbid the use of unleavened bread. The Latin Church, by contrast, has not considered this question very important.”

– Dr. Johannes H. Emminghaus, The Eucharist: Essence, Form, Celebration, page 162]

Thus, with the foregoing information in mind, it is clear that the use of leavened bread by the Eastern Churches represents the ancient practice of the undivided Church, while the use of unleavened bread by the Western Church was an innovation introduced near the end of the first millennium.*
 
hi ghosty

are you the former convert from Judaism from Atheism?
thanks
marlo
It’s not at all emotional. 🙂

Yes, they violated the Law; they also Crucified God Himself. There’s no question of whether or not the Sanhedrin defiled themselves, but you are suggesting that Christ and the Apostles also defiled themselves. That seems to be an odd position to be taking, don’t you think?

Peace and God bless!
 
My approved territory is Eastern Christianity and Apologetics. Could you please place the question?

“If a Mass is invalidated when the priest fails to consume under both forms how is the Consecration which took place a few minutes earlier rendered null and void? How are the Elements deconsecrated?”

Woodstock, I am being precise with my terminology here and phrasing the question just as puzzleannie presented her statement. She made it a matter of validity and not liceity. Liceity means if it is in accordance with liturgical law. Validity means whether or not any consecration took place at all.

Puzzleannie: “It is necessary for the priest to consume under both forms for a valid liturgy.”
😃 So your question was from here! I might have guessed.
 
hi ghosty

are you the former convert from Judaism from Atheism?
thanks
marlo
While I never made a “formal” conversion to Orthodox Judaism, as that process takes YEARS (up to a decade), it was through Orthodox Judaism that I came to Catholicism.

Fr. Ambrose: If scholars are unsure it’s only because they are looking for the evidence in Scripture and not in the practices of Judaism. The rules are quite explicit and clear: no leaven in the house the day before Passover. It wouldn’t be the first or last time that Christian “scholars” overlook the easiest and most obvious source of information in favor of continued speculation. 🙂

As for Early Church practice, there’s no evidence that leavened bread was used exclusively. More likely is that the type of bread simply wasn’t an issue, just as it still isn’t in the Catholic Church. Liturgical norms as we understand them today developed over centuries, and that is historical fact. The ECs used the bread and wine that was available to them to perform their Eucharist in the catacombs and such; worrying about how much leaven was in the bread was a luxury they that only later generations could enjoy. That’s my belief at any rate.

Peace and God bless!
 
If scholars are unsure it’s only because they are looking for the evidence in Scripture and not in the practices of Judaism.
The practices of Judaism are quite clear and rule out unleavened bread.

Unleavened bread is the “bread of affliction and sorrow (Deut. 16:13.)

It is the symbol of their defeat and their exile. It is used only for the seven days of Passover.

The Jewish imagery associated with unleavened bread, of suffering and grief, is very inappropriate for the Christian Eucharist, which is the celebration of Christ’s victory and passover from death to life.

It was also forbidden in the Old Testament to use unleavened bread for any sacrifice - again, a reason why it is inappropriate for the Eucharist and the eternal sacrifice.
 
That can’t be right. Didn’t Photius make a fuss about the Latins using unleavened bread? It had to be around for a while for that to happen right?
He made a big deal over the filioque, which Pope St. Leo III had banned just 50 years before.

The Catholic Encyclopedia asserts:

Certain it is that in the ninth century the use of unleavened bread had become universal and obligatory in the West, while the Greeks, desirous of emphasizing the distinction between the Jewish and the Christian Pasch, offered up leavened bread. Some surprise has been expressed that Photius, so alert in picking flaws in the Latin Liturgy, made no use of a point of attack which occupies so prominent a place in the polemics of the later schismatics. The obvious explanation is that Photius was shrewd and learned enough to see that the position of the Latins could not successfully be assailed. Two centuries later, the quarrel with Rome was resumed by a patriarch who was troubled with no learned scruples.
newadvent.org/cathen/02172a.htm
 
Fr Ambrose, you are aware, are you not, that the Eucharistic Host-turned- flesh of Lanciano is still in existence, having been preserved for posterity, and quite definitely a wafer-style host?

‘The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back’

Source
I’m confused, either it looks like flesh (hence the miracle) or it looks like bread (in which case it’s the usual miracle of the Eucharist).

There was a recent Eucharist miracle (mid 90s) in Jordan, which would definitely been leavened, but looked flat I understand.
 
The Catholic Encyclopedia asserts:

Certain it is that in the ninth century the use of unleavened bread had become universal and obligatory in the West, while the Greeks, desirous of emphasizing the distinction between the Jewish and the Christian Pasch, offered up leavened bread. Some surprise has been expressed that Photius, so alert in picking flaws in the Latin Liturgy, made no use of a point of attack which occupies so prominent a place in the polemics of the later schismatics. The obvious explanation is that Photius was shrewd and learned enough to see that the position of the Latins could not successfully be assailed. Two centuries later, the quarrel with Rome was resumed by a patriarch who was troubled with no learned scruples.
newadvent.org/cathen/02172a.htm
May I point out that the Catholic Encyclopedia’s statement that “in the ninth century the use of unleavened bread had become universal and obligatory in the West” is not correct in the light of more recent Catholic scholarship. Please see message 43 above. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2843494&postcount=43

In the 9th century unleavened bread was only starting to make its appearance in Italy. Rome herself did not adopt it until a few years AFTER the schism. In the 9th century unleavened bread was far from enjoying ubiquitous use and leavened bread was the norm.

Recent Catholic scholarship on this point makes the Catholic Enclopedia’s concluding slam against Patriarch Michael Caerularius quite gratuitous. (“Two centuries later, the quarrel with Rome was resumed by a patriarch who was troubled with no learned scruples.”)
 
Just want to point out that even without the first born issue there wouldn’t have been leaven the night before Passover; all leaven is cleared out of the house before sundown on the night before. If the Last Supper truly was the night before Passover, then the “preparations” done by the Apostles who were sent ahead would have been to sweep the house clean of all possible leaven.

This doesn’t at all invalidate the use of leavened bread, but there is simply no way in which the Last Supper would have been done with leaven. To do so, whether the night of or the night before Passover, would have been a GRAVE violation of the most sacred of Jewish holidays. In either case unleavened bread would have been used, hands down.

beingjewish.com/yomtov/passover/search.html

I find it amusing that in most “debates” on this subject, few actually consult Jewish practice on the matter. It is simply assumed that if the Last Supper occurred before Passover that it could have used leavened bread, despite the plain facts of Judaism standing against such a notion.

The ONLY argument for the Last Supper using leavened bread is that the word “artos” is used, but that word is used in the Greek Old Testament to describe unleavened bread as well. This fact combined with the clear Jewish practice on the matter leaves no other possible conclusion than that Christ used unleavened bread at the Last Supper. Later Christian practice of using leavened bread is completely uncompromised by this fact. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
The practices of Judaism are quite clear and rule out unleavened bread.

Unleavened bread is the "bread of affliction and sorrow" (Deut. 16:13.)

It is the symbol of their defeat and their exile. It is used only for the seven days of Passover.

The Jewish imagery associated with unleavened bread, of suffering and grief, is very inappropriate for the Christian Eucharist, which is the celebration of Christ’s victory and passover from death to life.

It was also forbidden in the Old Testament to use unleavened bread for any sacrifice - again, a reason why it is inappropriate for the Eucharist and the eternal sacrifice.
So what, or perhaps WHEN would you be claiming that the last supper took place? When did Jesus die in relation to the passover? When did the last supper happen in relation to His crucifixion?
 
This is really interesting.

The Old Catholic Encyclopedia states that “In the primitive church the bread and wine were brought to the altar by the faithful, each contributing his share”, which is common knowledge, I would say. What I would like to know is: what was the common bread eaten in the Mediterranean world of those days? Were the flatbreads leavened?

I read on one website that the conversion to unleavened bread happened approximately the year 1000 in the west. I believe someone else here posted this information as well. What I find fascinating is that this time period corresponds with the beginning of the Gregorian Reformation.

Is this about the same time infants were no longer communed?..or was that earlier (or later)?

When was the cup conserved from the laity? I wonder if there wasn’t a package of changes all being promoted as a set. Does anyone have information on this?

Michael
 
So what, or perhaps WHEN would you be claiming that the last supper took place? When did Jesus die in relation to the passover?
Hello Maria.

Your question is basically the same as that which we are debating - was the bread of theLast Supper leavened or unleavened? The answer to that is also the answer to your question. Since scholars cannot answer it, I think we must look for guidance in our Church tradition which is that of a continuous use of leavened bread.
When did the last supper happen in relation to His crucifixion?
“Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus…”
 
Hi Fr Ambrose:)
Hello Maria.

Your question is basically the same as that which we are debating - was the bread of theLast Supper leavened or unleavened? The answer to that is also the answer to your question. Since scholars cannot answer it, I think we must look for guidance in our Church tradition which is that of a continuous use of leavened bread.

“Qui, pridie quam pateretur, accepit panem in sanctas ac venerabiles manus…”
Yet isn’t your question answered in your very next words?

Who the day before He suffered took bread into His holy and venerable hands…

Isn’t this established Tradition that it was the day before?
 
Hosts ready for shipment to rectories worldwide…

A Cistercian Postulant preparing hosts for packaging:
Yes, we Latins are firm believers in supporting these cottage industry of our pious nuns and monks, God bless them.
 
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