Bread of Life

[sfp]

Ok I’ll make this simple. If the bible is to be believed then every word found within it must be there because it is meant to be there; otherwise why should anyone believe anything that is found within it?..

We agree, my friend.

The Bible is considered by the Catholic Church to be innerant because it’s writers were inspired by God Himself in recording His revelation to us.

You’re almost there, but you need to follow through with this reasoning…

First, you need to acknowledge the following, and I assume you do…

1. The Bible didn’t fall from the sky.
2. There is no “inspired Table of Contents” in the Bible. That is, someone had to define which books were to be considered inspired by God, and therefore to be included in the Bible.
3. There was much debate over which books were to be included in the Bible during the first 360 years after Christ’s death! The Bible’s Table of Contents were not defined until the end of the 4th century (397 A.D.). (we know this as a fact from History, and is not a matter of debate)

Therefore…
IF you believe that the Bible is the innerant Word of God (and we agree), THEN you MUST believe that the “entity” who defined which books were to be included in the Bible is infallible and is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. If you DON’T believe that the entity who defined the Bible’s contents was infallible in this decision, then technically you believe that they “could” have made a mistake, which would then require you to reject the Bible as God’s Word, since you would have no reason to accept something that “might” be incorrect!

Agreed? If not, then you missed something, because this is logic, not opinion. (It requires a particular THEN, IF one believes something)

So, can you guess who defined the Table of Contents for the Bible in 397 A.D.?

 

[mercygate]

Nobody (except some Protestants arguing against John 6) says that Scripture of the Bread of Life. We call Scripture “the word of God” because it contains the words of God – the message he needs us to receive in this form. Scripture is not the living equivalent to the living Person of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, without whom it would be a dead letter.

Jesus, quoting Deuteronomy, in the temptation passage you cite, says that man does not live by bread alone but by every **word – **in Greek: rhemata, or “commandment” --that proceeds form the mouth of God. The word “rhemata” is the Septuagint translation of the word “dabar” (‘word’ = commandment). So “word” in this passage means neither Scripture in the sense of the 72 books of the Bible nor does it mean “bread of life.”

 

[sfp]

Nobody (except some Protestants arguing against John 6) says that Scripture of the Bread of Life. We call Scripture “the word of God” because it contains the words of God – the message he needs us to receive in this form. Scripture is not the living equivalent to the living Person of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, without whom it would be a dead letter.

Jesus, quoting Deuteronomy, in the temptation passage you cite, says that man does not live by bread alone but by every **word – **in Greek: rhemata, or “commandment” --that proceeds form the mouth of God. The word “rhemata” is the Septuagint translation of the word “dabar” (‘word’ = commandment). So “word” in this passage means neither Scripture in the sense of the 72 books of the Bible nor does it mean “bread of life.”

Kudos for mentioning this, I have really not heard of anyone calling scripture the “bread of life” before so I’m glad someone addressed this. I’m guessing our friend here doesn’t acknowledge Christ’s body as the Bread of Life, therefore they have to fit “something” into the text.

Heretic, try to follow me here…
It’s pretty obvious that the Bread of Life is Jesus’s body given to us in John 6. He even states that this bread is the “New Manna,” that it is His body, and that “Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man, you have no life in you.” Then many of His disciples left him (if they thought he was speaking figuratively, then they would have had no reason to leave.)

The manna in the desert was obviously miraculous, since it appeared from nothing and kept the Israelites “physically” alive during those difficult years. In the N.T. fulfillment, the miraculous bread keeps us “spiritually” alive, which is more superior to our physical life.

It is unreasonable to suggest that a New Testament fulfillment is “less superior” to an Old Testament “Type.” So, it doesn’t really make sense to suggest that He intended for the New Covenant Bread of Life to be merely “stale bread and grapejuice.”

It really can’t get any more clear to those who are willing to open their minds to the truth.

 

[sfp]

…So “word” in this passage means neither Scripture in the sense of the 72 books of the Bible nor does it mean “bread of life.”

I think you meant 73 books, I’m guessing you had a typo…

46 O.T.
27 N.T.​

73 Total

newadvent.org/bible/

 

[The_heretic]

The power and love (which is a greater power than any mere negative compulsion) of the FATHER compels Christ to do battle with all those, great and small, who oppose Him and the Father. And nothing else - God is all powerful and more than sufficient unto himself. An “archnemesis” (which title is giving Satan more dignity and respect than he deserves) who is of God’s own creation is hardly His equal in power, let alone having any compulsion over God.

I’ll play the Devil’s advocate, for measure. Does not Jesus say, Love your enemies? Do good to those who curse you and despitefully use you; and to bless them?
Who abides more in Christ’s love, in measure of that love–the one who says curse you Satan, rot in hell? Or the one that says, Satan you are my enemy; but as Christ has taught, I should love my enemies; therefore I love you, Satan.
Which one of us abides more in Christ’s love? You or I?
And if a man has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath day–does not that man go out and pull that sheep up from the pit? Do you see the relevance in that statement?
The devil has fallen into a pit, what man among you if he lost a sheep would not go into the pit to save that sheep? And do we say to that sheep, I hate you devil now rise from the pit or do you say Christ’s love abides in me, therefore I have love for you Mr. devil, now rise and come out of that pit.
You claim that the devil is the epitomy of evil–and you feed that evil with your hate. Can hate defeat hate? Or is it love that conquers all? Is not God perfect love and does not perfect love cast out fear? If God is love, and love gives it’s self away then why not have sympathy for the devil? And what God if he has lost one sheep to a pit does not pull that sheep out of the pit; and what better way is there than through love?
If God speaks a word then I will hold him to his words; what man if he has lost a sheep on the sabbath day to a pit does not pull that lost sheep from that pit? because I will not be held to his words if He, himself, cannot be held to his words.
You say that God is all-powerful; but you say that the devil is beyond redemption, therefore, if God is all-powerful then how come God has not the power to raise a single lost sheep from a pit, even it be through love?
That which is humbled shall be exalted. And that which is exalted shall be humbled. Since you have humbled the devil, I shall exalt him–Satan is restored to the arch nemesis of God; and by my words I have humbled God, by saying that Satan is the arch nemesis of his light; since you say, which title is giving Satan more dignity and respect than he deserves

God shines his light upon the good and the evil. God’s light is LOVE. God’s love is perfect in that it casts out fear, even in the devil–and the devil has alot to fear from God. God is kind to the evil and to the un-thankful. You cannot destroy hate with hate. Only love can destroy hate. And what better way to destroy the perfect hate (devil) than with the perfect love (God). This is the marriage of Heaven and Hell I am talking about.
There’s an old proverb that goes something like this: Nothing could tame the beast until beauty scathed his hand and then from that day forward, the beast became one of us.
And what is more beautiful than perfect love; as the beast is afraid of judgement; and perfect love casts out fear.

Please! Don’t tell me that the perfect hate cannot be overcome with the perfect love, or we are all doomed.

 

[LilyM]

I’ll play the Devil’s advocate, for measure. Does not Jesus say, Love your enemies? Do good to those who curse you and despitefully use you; and to bless them?
Who abides more in Christ’s love, in measure of that love–the one who says curse you Satan, rot in hell? Or the one that says, Satan you are my enemy; but as Christ has taught, I should love my enemies; therefore I love you, Satan.
Which one of us abides more in Christ’s love? You or I?
And if a man has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath day–does not that man go out and pull that sheep up from the pit? Do you see the relevance in that statement?
The devil has fallen into a pit, what man among you if he lost a sheep would not go into the pit to save that sheep? And do we say to that sheep, I hate you devil now rise from the pit or do you say Christ’s love abides in me, therefore I have love for you Mr. devil, now rise and come out of that pit.
You claim that the devil is the epitomy of evil–and you feed that evil with your hate. Can hate defeat hate? Or is it love that conquers all? Is not God perfect love and does not perfect love cast out fear? If God is love, and love gives it’s self away then why not have sympathy for the devil? And what God if he has lost one sheep to a pit does not pull that sheep out of the pit; and what better way is there than through love?
If God speaks a word then I will hold him to his words; what man if he has lost a sheep on the sabbath day to a pit does not pull that lost sheep from that pit? because I will not be held to his words if He, himself, cannot be held to his words.
You say that God is all-powerful; but you say that the devil is beyond redemption, therefore, if God is all-powerful then how come God has not the power to raise a single lost sheep from a pit, even it be through love?
That which is humbled shall be exalted. And that which is exalted shall be humbled. Since you have humbled the devil, I shall exalt him–Satan is restored to the arch nemesis of God; and by my words I have humbled God, by saying that Satan is the arch nemesis of his light; since you say, which title is giving Satan more dignity and respect than he deserves

God shines his light upon the good and the evil. God’s light is LOVE. God’s love is perfect in that it casts out fear, even in the devil–and the devil has alot to fear from God. God is kind to the evil and to the un-thankful. You cannot destroy hate with hate. Only love can destroy hate. And what better way to destroy the perfect hate (devil) than with the perfect love (God). This is the marriage of Heaven and Hell I am talking about.
There’s an old proverb that goes something like this: Nothing could tame the beast until beauty scathed his hand and then from that day forward, the beast became one of us.
And what is more beautiful than perfect love; as the beast is afraid of judgement; and perfect love casts out fear.

Please! Don’t tell me that the perfect hate cannot be overcome with the perfect love, or we are all doomed.

I never said that I hate or fear the devil or any sinner, and certainly I do my utmost to live up to Christ’s words. Loving your enemy means desiring good for them, not unconditional acceptance. Blessing those who persecute you again means desiring good for them in the same way.

Now there’s a reason why we do this. A human sinner has every chance to repent of their sin and turn to the good while ever there is breath left in their body, and to be influenced by us if we treat them with consideration. If they die in obstinate sin (and we can never be certain that an individual does, not being infallible readers of people’s souls) then they are lost and damned irredeemably - there is no further good that can be done to them, for them or by them, so nothing remains to be achieved by loving them or doing good to them.

Same with the Devil. That’s what damnation means - one who is damned are lost beyond any power of help or redemption. No amount of doing good to them or for them helps them or us. One can’t do the work of God and the devil at the same time for this reason.

I don’t really believe in your concept of a ‘marriage of heaven and hell’. There’s a line in Scripture that says ‘what does light have to do with darkness’ - just as light and darkness don’t coexist in the same place and time (that which is light cannot at the same time be dark) so Heaven and Hell (or God and Satan if you will) are opposite and mutually exclusive ends of a spectrum having no capability of complementarity. They are polar opposites.

 

[kellie]

I am trying to work out the point of the OP.

So words of Satan are in the Bible !!!

Shock !!!

But who follows the Bible ???

Christians do.

And who are Christians ???

Followers of Christ.

So God knew what He was doing by putting the words of Satan into the Bible did He not??

To show us how evil Satan is, and to show us how not to be tempted by him.

We have the last laugh on Satan, for we follow the Word of God, the Bible, and denounce Satan and all his works.

God is all-knowing, and knew what He was doing by adding Satan to His Word.

 

[water]

Apparently, this incident found its way into scripture; therefore where God failed to turn the stone into bread, the Serpent turned it into bread; as a Christian would say—that the scripture is the “bread of life.”

Jesus did not fail but won the temptation. Remember that He was in the wilderness for fasting and praying, and Satan was trying to lure Jesus in using His power to break His fasting.

If Jesus could heal the sick, raise the dead, raise himself up from the dead, then changing stone into bread was nothing to him.

Another part you had mentioned Serpent turned stone into bread. I don’t recall hearing this part for my whole life? which Bible are you using?

 

[lak611]

Are you all telling me that the bible is not the word of God?

You are the one who said that the Bible was not the Word of God by claiming that the Devil wrote it.

 

[icxc_nika]

Jesus did not fail but won the temptation. Remember that He was in the wilderness for fasting and praying, and Satan was trying to lure Jesus in using His power to break His fasting.

If Jesus could heal the sick, raise the dead, raise himself up from the dead, then changing stone into bread was nothing to him.

Another part you had mentioned Serpent turned stone into bread. I don’t recall hearing this part for my whole life? which Bible are you using?

Water:

Heretic actually did explain exactly what he meant by referencing the turning the stone into bread. It was NOT a bible passage but his earthly wisdom that lead him to this conclusion.

The last thread by heretic is partiularly amusing.
It is late at night, and I do not have the refernce… however there is an early church Saint that acsribe the same attributes to satan. Attempting to state that even the devil himself would at the end be saved. This is about the only thing this Saintly man ever said that was refuted and rebuked by the church.

It’s funny how much is really old news.

Furthermore: the notion that Christ’s salvation for man applies to the Angels s wholly false. For God would give his entire company of angels to save but one person, created in his own image.

Also, for the poor soul of heretic to apply the meaning of a sheep ( referenced in scripture ) to the devil is yet again a false starting point. satan does not equal sheep.

As far as hate is concerned… we are free to hate all we want, put in the correct context. Why should we not hate satan and his angels who attempt to keep us away from the father. Is there a better application for this God given emotion?

Heretic is certainly confused about many aspects of the bread of life, but most of my points have already been made.

 

[richardeekw]

Hi everybody, me again.

I observed that many of us have become excited because our faith in the “words in Scriptures:” have been challanged by Mr heretic.

May I now propose this.

• Let us not proceed any further with this thread until and unless Mr heretic respond to several of our questions concerning his understanding of the “Word of God”.
  I have shared my understanding above and so have some others and I has ask Mr heretic to respond.

Now, Mr “heretic”, - the ball is in your court.

what about you personally – As a “Catholic” do you share my understanding about the Bible and the “word of God”, in the manner I do and as to how the New Testament was formed?

If** you do not agree, what then is your understanding?
Care to share, before we take this forum to a next stage ?**

If I do not have a response of your agreement or disagreement to my understanding of what is the “word of God”, I shall withdraw myself from this thread (and I hope others will do the same too) because it makes no sense to move on to the Sacred Texts.- as we may be discussing Scripture texts from different understanding of what they are.

May God enlighten all of us.

 

[thistle]

Christians say that the bible is the word of God; and being a Christian I agree. Do you agree? My guess is your answer is yes, if you are a Christian.
Let me take you to the part where Jesus was taken by the spirit to the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. The devil, the serpent as being more cunning than any beast of the field, he spoke, If thou be the son of man turn this stone into bread. Jesus did not turn it into bread but spoke; Thou shalt not live on bread alone but by the whole word of God.
Apparently, this incident found its way into scripture; therefore where God failed to turn the stone into bread, the Serpent turned it into bread; as a Christian would say—that the scripture is the “bread of life.”But wait, as Christian you say that that part is not the word of God but the word of the Devil. I would call you a hypocrite as you just agreed with me when I asked you, is the bible the word of God? And how could the bible be the whole word of God if some of the words are not the word of God? If some of the words are not the word of God then what other words found in the bible is not the word of God? If this was found in the bible to be not the word of God, when any law-abiding Christian would say that the bible is the word of God then it makes me wonder what other words or passages found in the bible are not the word of God.
Like I said, the Devil turned the stone into bread; as scripture being the bread of life.

“Take a bite” said the serpent “eat of it” Without no choice to do so, you cannot resist.

You cannot make a statement like that without providing the source. How can we comment on something we have never heard of. I’m pretty sure you won’t find that in any Bible.

 

[mercygate]

I’ll play the Devil’s advocate, for measure. Does not Jesus say, Love your enemies? Do good to those who curse you and despitefully use you; and to bless them?
Who abides more in Christ’s love, in measure of that love–the one who says curse you Satan, rot in hell? Or the one that says, Satan you are my enemy; but as Christ has taught, I should love my enemies; therefore I love you, Satan.
Which one of us abides more in Christ’s love? You or I?
And if a man has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath day–does not that man go out and pull that sheep up from the pit? Do you see the relevance in that statement?
The devil has fallen into a pit, what man among you if he lost a sheep would not go into the pit to save that sheep? And do we say to that sheep, I hate you devil now rise from the pit or do you say Christ’s love abides in me, therefore I have love for you Mr. devil, now rise and come out of that pit.
You claim that the devil is the epitomy of evil–and you feed that evil with your hate. Can hate defeat hate? Or is it love that conquers all? Is not God perfect love and does not perfect love cast out fear? If God is love, and love gives it’s self away then why not have sympathy for the devil? And what God if he has lost one sheep to a pit does not pull that sheep out of the pit; and what better way is there than through love?
If God speaks a word then I will hold him to his words; what man if he has lost a sheep on the sabbath day to a pit does not pull that lost sheep from that pit? because I will not be held to his words if He, himself, cannot be held to his words.
You say that God is all-powerful; but you say that the devil is beyond redemption, therefore, if God is all-powerful then how come God has not the power to raise a single lost sheep from a pit, even it be through love?
That which is humbled shall be exalted. And that which is exalted shall be humbled. Since you have humbled the devil, I shall exalt him–Satan is restored to the arch nemesis of God; and by my words I have humbled God, by saying that Satan is the arch nemesis of his light; since you say, which title is giving Satan more dignity and respect than he deserves

God shines his light upon the good and the evil. God’s light is LOVE. God’s love is perfect in that it casts out fear, even in the devil–and the devil has alot to fear from God. God is kind to the evil and to the un-thankful. You cannot destroy hate with hate. Only love can destroy hate. And what better way to destroy the perfect hate (devil) than with the perfect love (God). This is the marriage of Heaven and Hell I am talking about.
There’s an old proverb that goes something like this: Nothing could tame the beast until beauty scathed his hand and then from that day forward, the beast became one of us.
And what is more beautiful than perfect love; as the beast is afraid of judgement; and perfect love casts out fear.

Please! Don’t tell me that the perfect hate cannot be overcome with the perfect love, or we are all doomed.

Since the angels are not physical beings, but spirit only, the consequence of sin for them cannot be death as it is for men because the angels cannot die. Just as man was expelled from the garden (lest he eat of the tree of life) and became subject to death as the means of limiting the power of his sin, consignment to hell is the consequence of sin for creatures that cannot die. Their decisive choice became irrevocable.

Lest one say that God is all-powerful and all-loving, and that to hold him to his own justice is to limit his power, I would reply that reason and justice are integral to his love and that the great gift he has given to rational creatures is the freedom to love him in return. Love is a choice whose fulfillment requires two partners. It is essential to the dignity of rational creatures that we may freely choose either to serve or to reject that love.

The Catechism puts it this way: “It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. ‘There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.’ “(The Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 393. The quote on no repentance is from St. John Damascene.).

 

[Spirithound]

Apparently, this incident found its way into scripture; therefore where God failed to turn the stone into bread, the Serpent turned it into bread; as a Christian would say—that the scripture is the “bread of life.”
But, as Christian you say that that part is not the word of God but the word of the Devil. I would call you a hypocrite as you just agreed with me when I asked you, is the bible the word of God? And how could the bible be the whole word of God if some of the words are not the word of God? If some of the words are not the word of God then what other words found in the bible is not the word of God? If this was found in the bible to be not the word of God, when any law-abiding Christian would say that the bible is the word of God then it makes me wonder what other words or passages found in the bible are not the word of God.
Like I said, the Devil turned the stone into bread; as scripture being the bread of life.
“Take a bite” said the serpent “eat of it” Without no choice to do so, you cannot resist.

Hello Heretic (please note that you can’t spell hello without hell). Why are you here? How long did it take to come up with your screenname? Have you taken a simple logic course, let alone even basic theology?
I’m going to reply to your post in an intelligent manner, just for the intellectual exercise.
You are giving Satan too much credit. He, like all angels, and all created beings for that matter, is finite. That means that he does not share any of God’s “omni-” qualities. While he is intelligent, and he certainly knows more about everything than we do, I don’t think he can see into the future beyond the direct consequences of his actions. So, I don’t think he knew that he would be quoted in the New Testament.
Regarding your thesis that since some of the words in the Bible are the words of Satan, the Bible is not the Word of God, I think part of the confusion can be rectified by capitalizing Word of God when we are referring to the Bible, and lower-casing it when we’re speaking of a word actually spoken. By capitalizing Word of God, we can recognize it as a body of work, ie, a book, and as we all know, books are made up of words, usually spoken by several people.
Let me boil down your argument a bit further, drawing it to its logical conclusion. Satan tells us to eat the bread, and by that he means read the Bible. Satan therefore must want us to worship Jesus Christ, and go to heaven to be with Jesus forever, leaving Satan alone in hell. Strangely enough, that seems logical to me

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I skimmed through the responses to The Heretic and read his questions and answers. I want to know if he/she is serious or is just playing games. It seems the latter.

 

[Vigis]

The_heretic you have taken the scripture way out of context. You have resorted to cherry pick things and taking them out of context. I am surprised you even label yourself Catholic.

As for Christ in the desert, he did not fail to change the rock into bread. Why do you make such a false statement? You said yourself what Jesus’ response was. Your logic goes against itself.

Now you speak of the marriage of Heaven and Hell. By the very sense in which God has given us it does not make sense. For in Heaven God exists, but in Hell he does not. Hell is a place where those who have been judged by God go to because they have rejected, so God removes them of His presence.

Second love does not mean that you must have sympathy. I love Satan as Christ has commanded me, but I hate his sins which Jesus has commanded me. I am saddened that he made the descision to become sinful. We are not called to hate anyone. We are called to hate sin.

Satan is beyond redemption because he was cast into Hell. He has been entirely removed from God. Thus God can not redeam him. God does not tolerate sin in his presence.

You take Jesus’ parable about the lost sheep out of context. You forget especially about Matthew 18:13 which states “And if he finds it, truely, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.” Note the word 'If" please. What this indicates is that one who is lost in darkness can only be found if he or she chooses to be found. Satan has made his descision and thus he is cast into Hell.

Love is not about being cuddly with people. If that is your idea of love than that worries me. God loves Satan, but he gave Satan a free will and Satan has made his descision to be disobiediant to God. God will not tolerate sin in his presence. If someone took a bathroombreak right next to your dinner plate, would you continue to eat without removing the waste? I would not.

Also, about love again. If God is love to which you have stated and if love is all cuddly then does that not contradict every single punishment God has handed out? Does that not say that God hates people? If God hates people then He is not a god at all. You logic is totally broken. You have nothing to back up any point that you have stated.

God speed.

Vigis

 

[sfp]

I skimmed through the responses to The Heretic and read his questions and answers. I want to know if he/she is serious or is just playing games. It seems the latter.

I think you’re right. He/she is not even reading all the posts (either that, or he’s just ignoring the posts that make a lot of sense)

:tsktsk: