Break the Seal said Baton Rouge Court

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" The girl can say whatever she likes, the priest cannot. Spiritual direction is sealed much like confession when the topics parallel, this is why one’s spiritual director is most often one’s confessor; the two go hand in hand. "

By that you meant SD was sealed or not?
What does that mean to you?

Let’s try this again…

Spiritual Director and Confessor is the same and the topic is brought up in confession, the topic is sealed no matter where the priest hears it by the lips of the penitent.
 
Because crimes can happen in the confessional and they can be judged and priest can be penalized/sanctioned without being able to defend himself.

Priests have solicited for sex before - grave crime - can’t defend themselves either.

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It isn’t that I don’t believe you, but do you have any reference or specific example of when this has happened?
 
The Church would call the seal required. If the priest was in a session which is not sealed and the priest did not give good advice, then yes it would be negligent.

But let’s not make this more complicated than needed. This is the SD and confessor being the same person. If the topic of this case was brought into both the confession and SD, it is required the priest keep it under seal. He cannot even defend himself against accusations of negligence by the penitent. So in the hypothetical you bring up we will never know anything else but what the girl is claiming, or her parents and lawyers. You and I will not get any info from the priest as he is required to keep the seal.
My understanding is it would depend on what it was, in the confession, as these can be looked at by the Church.
 
Because crimes can happen in the confessional and they can be judged and priest can be penalized/sanctioned without being able to defend himself.

Priests have solicited for sex before - grave crime - can’t defend themselves either.

That is why I also said I don’t look at this, the priest not being able to defend himself, as fair or not. It comes with the territory.
This I would agree with. This protects the vulnerable from predators. Yes there are wolves in sheep’s clothing sometimes, even carrying a shepherd’s staff at times!
 
What does that mean to you?

Let’s try this again…

Spiritual Director and Confessor is the same and the topic is brought up in confession, the topic is sealed no matter where the priest hears it by the lips of the penitent.
I see what you are saying.
 
It isn’t that I don’t believe you, but do you have any reference or specific example of when this has happened?
As far as I know, the cases are not made public but the crimes are listed in canon law.
 
If I remember correctly, on case that involved a priest who sexually abused a child, also occurred in the confessional. That is where that topic came up and yes, they can and do look at it and make judgements.
 
That is an interesting question and we may never know what penalties were applied to him internally. When priests do things, esp in the confessional, it can be looked at and judged. He could have had a sanction put on him, penance for x amount of time for the victim etc, and we may never know. I don’t think the parents or child have to do this but a Bishop could submit it to be looked at.
It is an interesting question but we may never know what he actually said so why would the Church penalize him for something he cannot reveal? Even the court documents state that she mentioned things and asked advice during Confession. It is possible that he gave bad advice. It is also possible that she was negligent in some way with dealing with it. Bad things do happen to good people and sometimes victims have to deal with their own issues as a result.
 
It is an interesting question but we may never know what he actually said so why would the Church penalize him for something he cannot reveal? Even the court documents state that she mentioned things and asked advice during Confession. It is possible that he gave bad advice. It is also possible that she was negligent in some way with dealing with it. Bad things do happen to good people and sometimes victims have to deal with their own issues as a result.
It’s part of their duty when they step in the confessional. That is why I don’t look at it as fair or not.
If they would listen to one, then why not the other? The sanction would not be the same for someone giving bad advice vs someone soliciting sex. But, those are things that could have been addressed in '09. They are supposed to be quick, internally, on looking at these things and making judgements. It may not have been any sanctions BUT some very strong words, or one would hope.
 
Just one thing further, it isn’t uncommon for a victim to want to seek confession for these crimes because they do feel guilty, dirty, etc. They want it gone. It takes a well seasoned confessor to help them navigate these feelings, although not sins, and get the right help. We would hope they are all capable but they are not gifted the same way nor taught, evidently.
 
As far as I know, the cases are not made public but the crimes are listed in canon law.
Interesting…there are crimes and punishments listed in canon law for actions of priests in the confessional, even though the seal is in inviolate? And even if the church takes action for an alleged crime, it is kept confidential. One of those, “trust us, we are taking care of this internally” things?
 
Interesting…there are crimes and punishments listed in canon law for actions of priests in the confessional, even though the seal is in inviolate? ** And even if the church takes action for an alleged crime, it is kept confidential.** One of those, “trust us, we are taking care of this internally” things?
The action for a crime in the confessional, is started usually by the penitent, and kept secret to respect the penitent especially and the confidentiality of it. Not all penitents wish to speak of what crimes happened to them in the confessional or want them public.

I don’t know if his, the horrible advice, would elicit this. But one would hope it was and could be addressed by his Bishop to him without breaking the seal and getting across what needs to be done.
 
Also, my understanding, which could be wrong, is if the penitent started something internally, then they would know the judgement. If a Bishop took it upon himself to do it, they may not know - penitent. Her confession is becoming public knowledge.
 
I have been the recipient of very horrible advice in the confessional.
Some have taken a very long time to clear up. They were not crimes tho. One could have ended my marriage if God had not intervened and the way it all played out.

I have had the honor of confessing to what I consider very holy men who give just the right advice - holy spirit guiding them.
 
I have been the recipient of very horrible advice in the confessional.
Some have taken a very long time to clear up. They were not crimes tho. One could have ended my marriage if God had not intervened and the way it all played out.

I have had the honor of confessing to what I consider very holy men who give just the right advice - holy spirit guiding them.
Sure it is possible that some priests can give poor advice in the confessional but should they be called criminals for it? They are in the confessional to hear and absolve sins. They are not professional counselors nor in probably most cases are they" Spiritual Directors". If it sounds like bad advice, don’t follow it. Use your own judgment and common sense. I acknowledge that this priest COULD HAVE given bad advice. But I do not automatically assume that he did without knowing the full contexts of the conversations.
 
The priest is the defendant. Do you think it is fair that the plaintiffs can bring up things said under the seal of confession that prevents him from either confirming or denying? How is that fair to the defendant?
Yes, and I’m now more confused than ever about why they’re suing the priest and what they hope to get out of it.

That the girl has now testified of what she said in confession reveals to the court her side of the story–they don’t need the priest to reveal that, and it’s moot anyway, since the alleged abuser is dead.

That the girl has now “released” the priest from the secrecy of the seal (which, according to the Church, she may not be able to do–but from my research does seem permissible in some circumstances) doesn’t really help matters much either. Practically speaking, what do they hope the priest to remember? You’re getting into a “he said, she said” thing that bears on word-for-word allegations 6-8 years ago.

Beyond that, what is it supposed to prove? What is actually under trial? It seems that the girl and the family really want to go after him for what she alleges was bad or callous advice. If true (which I doubt), that’s not a crime, so there’s not point in such a trial–but I don’t doubt that that is the primary motivation of the girl and the family (though they could be after money, too…)

So what’s left? That the priest should have reported the information? You don’t even need to question him to determine whether a priest must abide by mandatory reporting laws with regard to information given in the confessional.

It is clear that the Seal does not permit a priest to report information gained within confession. The girl “released” the priest (even if that were possible) too late for that matter, too late for him to have reported. She obviously at the time did not come to him outside of Confession–which she could have done and likely was counseled to do–and she could have spoken to any number of other people. So that information was bound under the Seal, period.

That means that for the Court to even be interested in the question of “what the priest knew when,” it must be ruling against the sanctity of the Seal of the Confessional, as if state laws can demand a priest to break it.

So it makes perfect sense that the Church will fight that to the end. Louisiana seems to have decided that its mandatory reporting law supersedes the Seal (or they wouldn’t even be asking the priest what he knew when). The Church is explicitly clear that priests cannot reveal that information even to report crimes, or defend their reputations or even their very lives.

That makes this case much simpler. It becomes a question only of whether Louisiana can pass laws that require a breaking of protected privilege, privacy,. It therefore puts into question and into jeopardy ALL forms of privilege (client-attorney, spousal, doctor-patient, etc), privacy rights (no point to HIPAA or the 5th Amendment), and yes, religious freedom (the 1st Amendment).

As such, it is an asinine claim with a massive weight of precedent and Constitutional structure against it. When people get so far into the weeds and so drunk with power or emotion, they lose sight of simple logic and the ability to examine consequences.
 
That is an interesting question and we may never know what penalties were applied to him internally. When priests do things, esp in the confessional, it can be looked at and judged. He could have had a sanction put on him, penance for x amount of time for the victim etc, and we may never know. I don’t think the parents or child have to do this but a Bishop could submit it to be looked at.
How can it be looked at, since no one knows? This girl is claiming he said “X”, advice which most normal people find appalling. But nobody will ever know if that’s what the priest really said, so how could he be punished by his superiors? He can no more defend himself to them than he can to the Court.
 
Sure it is possible that some priests can give poor advice in the confessional but should they be called criminals for it? They are in the confessional to hear and absolve sins. They are not professional counselors nor in probably most cases are they" Spiritual Directors". If it sounds like bad advice, don’t follow it. Use your own judgment and common sense. I acknowledge that this priest COULD HAVE given bad advice. But I do not automatically assume that he did without knowing the full contexts of the conversations.
No, they are not criminals in my book. It is different when you are a young person though or not very well catechized. You can be easily confused for a time. OR you can misunderstand something, etc etc. However she interpreted, it could have affected the way she acted/didn’t act/didn’t report/didn’t tell parents.
 
How can it be looked at, since no one knows? This girl is claiming he said “X”, advice which most normal people find appalling. But nobody will ever know if that’s what the priest really said, so how could he be punished by his superiors? He can no more defend himself to them than he can to the Court.
The same way if a crime happens in the confessional can be looked at.
🤷
 
Sure it is possible that some priests can give poor advice in the confessional but should they be called criminals for it? They are in the confessional to hear and absolve sins. They are not professional counselors nor in probably most cases are they" Spiritual Directors". If it sounds like bad advice, don’t follow it. Use your own judgment and common sense. I acknowledge that this priest COULD HAVE given bad advice. But I do not automatically assume that he did without knowing the full contexts of the conversations.
I will say this, although they may not be criminals in my book, some need to either go back to school or have their faculties taken away from them (no longer able to hear confessions unless emergency).

Phemie, maybe that is a good question to bring up to one of the experts here because my conversation wasn’t long with the canon lawyer about it. I thought it was odd that a crime could be committed in the confessional esp given the seal.
 
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