BREAKING: Episcopal Church suspended from Anglican Communion

[Usige]

So does that mean that they cannot participate in the next Lambeth Conference in 2018 (assuming it is actually called and not skipped like 1940)?

Just curious if the 3 year “timeout” was intended to have anything to do with the timing of the decennial conference.

 

[Thorolfr]

Yes and they can come HOME via the Anglican Ordinariate.

I am hoping the snow ball keeps rolling until all the Anglican communion come home to Rome.

I can’t imagine the Anglicans ever going back to Rome. Right now I’m reading a book by Steve Pincus, 1688: The First Modern Revolution (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009). It’s all about the Glorious Revolution of 1688 when the Catholic Stuart king James II was overthrown and forced to flee to France, partly because of his attempts to reestablish the Catholic Church in Britain. Parliament then passed a Bill of Rights which stipulated that no Roman Catholic was permitted to ascend the English throne, nor could any English monarch marry a Roman Catholic. The book by Pincus even has a picture of a medal commemorating the centenary of the Glorious Revolution in 1788 which depicts a British lion trampling, as the caption reads, “on symbols of Catholic domination underfoot,” including a papal tiara (page 30).

 

[GKC]

So does that mean that they cannot participate in the next Lambeth Conference in 2018 (assuming it is actually called and not skipped like 1940)?

Just curious if the 3 year “timeout” was intended to have anything to do with the timing of the decennial conference.

The 3 year time out was to allow there to be a TEC General Synod, in the interim, along with the anticipated reflection, and soul searching. The idea is that the GS, being authoritative, could make things shapely with the Communion, repent and come home again.

Doubtful.

Current plans are not to hold a Lambeth in 2018, as announced before this special meeting. Though ++Welby is being coy on that.

If there was a 2018, ++Welby issues the invites, not the Communion. And if all is unchanged, and there was a Lambeth, and TEC is invited, figure on the GAFCON/Global South being scarce.

Possibly.

 

[GKC]

I can’t imagine the Anglicans ever going back to Rome. Right now I’m reading a book by Steve Pincus, 1688: The First Modern Revolution (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009). It’s all about the Glorious Revolution of 1688 when the Catholic Stuart king James II was overthrown and forced to flee to France, partly because of his attempts to reestablish the Catholic Church in Britain. Parliament then passed a Bill of Rights which stipulated that no Roman Catholic was permitted to ascend the English throne, nor could any English monarch marry a Roman Catholic. The book by Pincus even has a picture of a medal commemorating the centenary of the Glorious Revolution in 1788 which depicts a British lion trampling, as the caption reads, “on symbols of Catholic domination underfoot,” including a papal tiara (page 30).

Institutionally, I wouldn’t expect the CoE to apply for membership in the RCC. Individually, some have, of course.

 

[commenter]

No, not yet anyway. In Canada, some parishes have been blessing same sex unions (without punishment), but SSM is not yet a province supported practice. That’s the technicality they got off on.

But you have to also keep in mind that TEC and the ACoC make up like 2 million members of an 80-85 million member body.

Being denied their right to vote means little, considering they would have been outvoted in many of those meetings anyway. But so what? TEC’s influence is not in votes in AC committees, it is through the Media, which promotes Mainline denominations.

With various direct financial and indirect political resources available to it, TEC has far more power than many provinces much bigger numerically. They “vote” with their dollars, and their contacts with the Obama Administration which is in a position to deny foreign aid to countries that deny “civil rights”, like gay “marriage”. Having TEC onboard with SSM and pro choice helps secular politicians avoid the appearance of being antichristian. TEC helps provide “cover”.
TEC also can fund rival movements to conservative primates in other countries.

With people in the “Liberation Theology” mindset, getting sanctioned in this way is essentially a pat on the back. They “need” it to show they are edgy, and prophetic. If the Primates had somehow decided against a public sanction, TEC would have complained. (“Where’s our sanction? You promised a sanction.”)

 

[total_Catholic]

I can’t imagine the Anglicans ever going back to Rome. Right now I’m reading a book by Steve Pincus, 1688: The First Modern Revolution (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009). It’s all about the Glorious Revolution of 1688 when the Catholic Stuart king James II was overthrown and forced to flee to France, partly because of his attempts to reestablish the Catholic Church in Britain. Parliament then passed a Bill of Rights which stipulated that no Roman Catholic was permitted to ascend the English throne, nor could any English monarch marry a Roman Catholic. The book by Pincus even has a picture of a medal commemorating the centenary of the Glorious Revolution in 1788 which depicts a British lion trampling, as the caption reads, “on symbols of Catholic domination underfoot,” including a papal tiara (page 30).

Man cannot stop what God wills. Peace and blessings!

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Just for information, here is the response of the Presiding Bishop, Michael Curry via the Episcopal News Service:

“Many of us have committed ourselves and our church to being ‘a house of prayer for all people,’ as the Bible says, when all are truly welcome,” Curry said in remarks he later made available to Episcopal News Service.

“Our commitment to be an inclusive church is not based on a social theory or capitulation to the ways of the culture, but on our belief that the outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross are a sign of the very love of God reaching out to us all. While I understand that many disagree with us, our decision regarding marriage is based on the belief that the words of the Apostle Paul to the Galatians are true for the church today: All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, for all are one in Christ.

“For so many who are committed to following Jesus in the way of love and being a church that lives that love, this decision will bring real pain,” he said. “For fellow disciples of Jesus in our church who are gay or lesbian, this will bring more pain. For many who have felt and been rejected by the church because of who they are, for many who have felt and been rejected by families and communities, our church opening itself in love was a sign of hope. And this will add pain on top of pain.”

Curry told the primates that he was in no sense comparing his own pain to theirs, but “I stand before you as your brother. I stand before you as a descendant of African slaves, stolen from their native land, enslaved in a bitter bondage, and then even after emancipation, segregated and excluded in church and society. And this conjures that up again, and brings pain.

“The pain for many will be real. But God is greater than anything. I love Jesus and I love the church. I am a Christian in the Anglican way. And like you, as we have said in this meeting, I am committed to ‘walking together’ with you as fellow primates in the Anglican family.”

 

[Usige]

The 3 year time out was to allow there to be a TEC General Synod, in the interim, along with the anticipated reflection, and soul searching. The idea is that the GS, being authoritative, could make things shapely with the Communion, repent and come home again.

Doubtful.

Current plans are not to hold a Lambeth in 2018, as announced before this special meeting. Though ++Welby is being coy on that.

If there was a 2018, ++Welby issues the invites, not the Communion. And if all is unchanged, and there was a Lambeth, and TEC is invited, figure on the GAFCON/Global South being scarce.

Possibly.

Thanks for the insight. The last I had seen was ++Welby saying a conference hadn’t been called yet, but that was sometime last year.

 

[thephilosopher6]

No, not yet anyway. In Canada, some parishes have been blessing same sex unions (without punishment), but SSM is not yet a province supported practice. That’s the technicality they got off on.

But you have to also keep in mind that TEC and the ACoC make up like 2 million members of an 80-85 million member body.

I heard the Anglican Church of Canada is also being threatened with suspension if they do vote to allow SSM.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Just for information, here is the response of the Presiding Bishop, Michael Curry via the Episcopal News Service:

“Many of us have committed ourselves and our church to being ‘a house of prayer for all people,’ as the Bible says, when all are truly welcome,” Curry said in remarks he later made available to Episcopal News Service.

“Our commitment to be an inclusive church is not based on a social theory or capitulation to the ways of the culture, but on our belief that the outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross are a sign of the very love of God reaching out to us all. While I understand that many disagree with us, our decision regarding marriage is based on the belief that the words of the Apostle Paul to the Galatians are true for the church today: All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, for all are one in Christ.

“For so many who are committed to following Jesus in the way of love and being a church that lives that love, this decision will bring real pain,” he said. “For fellow disciples of Jesus in our church who are gay or lesbian, this will bring more pain. For many who have felt and been rejected by the church because of who they are, for many who have felt and been rejected by families and communities, our church opening itself in love was a sign of hope. And this will add pain on top of pain.”

Curry told the primates that he was in no sense comparing his own pain to theirs, but “I stand before you as your brother. I stand before you as a descendant of African slaves, stolen from their native land, enslaved in a bitter bondage, and then even after emancipation, segregated and excluded in church and society. And this conjures that up again, and brings pain.

“The pain for many will be real. But God is greater than anything. I love Jesus and I love the church. I am a Christian in the Anglican way. And like you, as we have said in this meeting, I am committed to ‘walking together’ with you as fellow primates in the Anglican family.”

ComplineSanFran, thank you for Bishop Curry’s words. I said on the World News subforum in regard to this same topic that we needed a voice such as yours to shed light upon this matter. And what better way than to cite the words of the bishop.

Another poster GKC seems to be keeping open as to what might happen over the next few yrs. Do you have any sense as to where things might end up? Or is it simply too soon to know? Thank again.

 

[FollowChrist34]

The Archbishop called the meeting in an attempt to break the deadlock and float a plan to reorganise Anglicanism into a loose federation of churches to allow space for what he calls “good disagreement”.

But one source close to the traditionalists said: “There is a 90 per cent chance that the schism that took place with the consecration of Gene Robinson will now be full articulated by Friday teatime – with or without people walking out of the gate.

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12098501/Archbishops-treated-like-children-in-church-gay-crisis-talks.html

It does sound like a defeat for the traditionalists. From this article, it makes it sound like they were pretty much stymied through the talks. Whether they stand for that (see quote above) will be interesting.

 

[theropod]

Just for information, here is the response of the Presiding Bishop, Michael Curry via the Episcopal News Service:

“Many of us have committed ourselves and our church to being ‘a house of prayer for all people,’ as the Bible says, when all are truly welcome,” Curry said in remarks he later made available to Episcopal News Service.

“Our commitment to be an inclusive church is not based on a social theory or capitulation to the ways of the culture, but on our belief that the outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross are a sign of the very love of God reaching out to us all. While I understand that many disagree with us, our decision regarding marriage is based on the belief that the words of the Apostle Paul to the Galatians are true for the church today: All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, for all are one in Christ.

“For so many who are committed to following Jesus in the way of love and being a church that lives that love, this decision will bring real pain,” he said. “For fellow disciples of Jesus in our church who are gay or lesbian, this will bring more pain. For many who have felt and been rejected by the church because of who they are, for many who have felt and been rejected by families and communities, our church opening itself in love was a sign of hope. And this will add pain on top of pain.”

Curry told the primates that he was in no sense comparing his own pain to theirs, but “I stand before you as your brother. I stand before you as a descendant of African slaves, stolen from their native land, enslaved in a bitter bondage, and then even after emancipation, segregated and excluded in church and society. And this conjures that up again, and brings pain.

“The pain for many will be real. But God is greater than anything. I love Jesus and I love the church. I am a Christian in the Anglican way. And like you, as we have said in this meeting, I am committed to ‘walking together’ with you as fellow primates in the Anglican family.”

This is actually a difficult thing to read, and it weighs on my heart. I know that Bishop Curry is very sincere in his beliefs, no matter how misguided I think they are. Very much in opposition to his predecessor, who I’m not sure was even a believer. Nothing about this is easy or joyous.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I doubt that this vote will do anything. As one person noted:

Thorolfr, I’d be curious if you have any thoughts on a possible merger with ELCA that has been mentioned here? I am always interested in hearing from actual members of a particular community when their community is being discussed. I find it helpful when it is not only Catholics or those with some opposition in regard to a particular community, who speak. That’s why I appreciate posters such as yourself and ComplineSanFran when the discussion turns to matters in ELCA and TEC, respectively.

 

[Peter_J]

Though the article gets the particular point right, the title is misleading.

Agreed. They were suspended from voting, not “suspended from Anglican Communion”.

 

[theropod]

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12098501/Archbishops-treated-like-children-in-church-gay-crisis-talks.html

It does sound like a defeat for the traditionalists. From this article, it makes it sound like they were pretty much stymied through the talks. Whether they stand for that (see quote above) will be interesting.

This doesn’t really sound like what I’ve heard from probably better sources than The Telegraph. First, I don’t think anyone “wins” here. But I don’t think the traditionalists were defeated by any stretch. If anyone is a “winner”, it’s ++Welby. He’s managed to pull off the impossible, which is getting all the primates together, and getting all but one to stay through the entire meeting. Nobody thought that would happen.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Not there yet. Check back in 3 years if they don’t do it themselves beforehand.

How can they do it themselves? I thought that was impossible unless it was “automatic excommunication” i.e. explicitly clear such as when Pope Benedict warned politicians not to receive communion when they publicly support abortion. The central body of the church excommunicates, not the other way around.

 

[total_Catholic]

This is actually a difficult thing to read, and it weighs on my heart. I know that Bishop Curry is very sincere in his beliefs, no matter how misguided I think they are. Very much in opposition to his predecessor, who I’m not sure was even a believer. Nothing about this is easy or joyous.

Yes, but I’ve read about many black Christians who are upset that their plight of their ancestors is now compared to the same “sufferings” of the LGBT crowd. Last I looked, nobody has gays in chains whipping them here in America. I do agree with you regarding his predecessor.

 

[theropod]

How can they do it themselves? I thought that was impossible unless it was “automatic excommunication” i.e. explicitly clear such as when Pope Benedict warned politicians not to receive communion when they publicly support abortion. The central body of the church excommunicates, not the other way around.

Well, there’s not so much of a central body in the Anglican Communion. It’s a rough analogy. If one group is no longer in communion with another, then their status would have to be prefixed with “ex-”.

 

[Sy_Noe]

This is actually a difficult thing to read, and it weighs on my heart. I know that Bishop Curry is very sincere in his beliefs, no matter how misguided I think they are. Very much in opposition to his predecessor, who I’m not sure was even a believer. Nothing about this is easy or joyous.

The only thing I found somewhat difficult to understand was at the very end when Bishop Curry said, "I am a Christian in the Anglican way. And like you, as we have said in this meeting, I am committed to ‘walking together’ with you as fellow primates in the Anglican family.”

What I’m unsure about is what Bishop Curry means if eventually TEC, as the Church sees itself today, is unwelcome to walk together in the Anglican Communion. By Anglican way and family, could this eventually mean TEC might remain Anglican in practice in the sense that Old Catholics are Catholic in worship style for instance, but are not in communion with Rome? Or does Bishop Curry mean TEC might “repent”, the word I believe I saw someone use here.

 

[FollowChrist34]

This doesn’t really sound like what I’ve heard from probably better sources than The Telegraph. First, I don’t think anyone “wins” here. But I don’t think the traditionalists were defeated by any stretch. If anyone is a “winner”, it’s ++Welby. He’s managed to pull off the impossible, which is getting all the primates together, and getting all but one to stay through the entire meeting. Nobody thought that would happen.

What do you think will happen in three years?

Are you a traditionalist? (I don’t mean to pry - I am genuinely trying to get your viewpoint if you are)

What would have been the ideal outcome of these talks? Assuming you didn’t want the break or feel it was necessary.