BREAKING: Episcopal Church suspended from Anglican Communion

[cmodrmac]

I am impressed with all the insightful comments -this does effect real people

I look forward to see if our Priest addresses this issue on Sunday - I suspect that our Priest may not comment at all- however there is no real option for an upset Episcopalian to flee to for shelter - many in our Congregation do not care about SSM -this means that they do not necessarily support it but as long as it does not effect them directly they choose not to think about it-

Indeed the first same sex marriage happened in our Parish last week and there was no uproar at all-but no loud applause either

Many in our Parish view themselves as “rational Catholics” but of course we are not -we continue to move far away from our catholic roots-

ACNA in our part of Florida is small with tiny Churches and even smaller budgets -interestingly many are supported from former Caribean Anglicans such as from Belize or Guyana

As for merging with the ELCA why? -I doubt that Bishop’s from each denomination would jump to give up their authority -to increase numbers? what purpose is that

The Methodist Church came from the Anglican church and they are on the same road as TEC -it will take longer but very likely to happen-those ho wanted to join the Roman catholic Church have long left

I do believe that this is part of the end game - likely the denomination will be gone as a specific recognizable denomination in the next 25 years-most of the members in my Parish will likely ride this out-their grandkids don’t go to Church anyway

 

[GKC]

Assuming that is because only one province (not sure that is the right term?) can cover a geographic area, then that would mean the Anglican Church of Canada would be out also. Would that be a correct understanding of the fallout? I had read an article on CBC.ca that the Canadian Church was indirectly put on notice with the actions against the TEC.

Sorry, still trying to figure out how the communion works given it’s governing structure.

No. Not correct.

TEC and ACNA could function in the USA, assuming one is the member province of the Communion east of the Mississippi, and the other west of it. The area under the crook and miter of one Primate is not shared with another Primate, in the same Communion. Bishops don’t cross borders, save if offering alternate episcopal oversight. Which assumes all is not well.

Yes, the ACoC is on thin ice. Not sure they care.

 

[Thorolfr]

2 is right out of the game. Only thing I wouldn’t caveat with professions of uncertainty. Absent divine intervention.

I agree that 2 (TEC caves and no longer stands by SSM) is the least likely outcome. As conservative leave TEC, it is becoming increasingly more liberal, not more conservative, and all the conservative voices will be gone. Here’s a reaction I read in the New York Times:

The Rev. Susan Russell, a senior associate rector at All Saints Church in Pasadena, Calif., was among the Episcopalians who said sanctions would not change their position: “As a lifelong Episcopalian and a married lesbian priest, I think it’s not only an acceptable cost, it’s a badge of honor in some ways.”

nytimes.com/2016/01/15/world/europe/anglican-archbishops-sanction-us-episcopal-church-over-gay-marriages.html?_r=0

Or here’s another comment from the Washington Post:

Episcopalians have been aware that the U.S. body could be penalized, said Jim Naughton, a communications consultant working largely in the Episcopal Church. “The sanctions against the Episcopal Church are trifling compared to what LGBT Christians suffer, and we shouldn’t be whining about the nature of the sanctions,” he said.

washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/01/14/anglican-communion-suspends-the-episcopal-church-for-3-years-from-committees/

What happening in TEC is probably similar to what happened in the ELCA. After they voted in 2009 to allow non-celibate gay clergy, for about two or three years after that, there was a big exodus of conservative congregations which has left the ELCA a more liberal denomination overall. The rate of decline in the ELCA is now about what it was before 2009 and is more gradual, due mostly to the fact that society in general is becoming less religious.

 

[GKC]

I agree that 2 (TEC caves and no longer stands by SSM) is the least likely outcome. As conservative leave TEC, it is becoming increasingly more liberal, not more conservative, and all the conservative voices will be gone. Here’s a reaction I read in the New York Times:

nytimes.com/2016/01/15/world/europe/anglican-archbishops-sanction-us-episcopal-church-over-gay-marriages.html?_r=0

Or here’s another comment from the Washington Post:

washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/01/14/anglican-communion-suspends-the-episcopal-church-for-3-years-from-committees/

What happening in TEC is probably similar to what happened in the ELCA. After they voted in 2009 to allow non-celibate gay clergy, for about two or three years after that, there was a big exodus of conservative congregations which has left the ELCA a more liberal denomination overall. The rate of decline in the ELCA is now about what it was before 2009 and is more gradual, due mostly to the fact that society in general is becoming less religious.

The purifying ot TEC (flight of the traditionalists, all types) goes back around 37 years. Not much left to flee, by now. My parish used to pick up a couple of disaffected Episcopalians, whenever TEC was in the news for the usual reasons. That is not common these days.

 

[total_Catholic]

That means he hopes not to be voted out of the Communion, and that some form of restructuring of the Communion and the relationships of its constituent Provinces might make that possible .

Being voted out would make TEC an autocephalous Anglican Church, not belonging to the Anglican Communion (those Anglican entities who are in formal communion with themselves, and the Archbishop of Canterbury). Like the Anglican Continuum, which would be ironic. Or like the ACNA, which, currently, is not formally in the Communion.

That would be ironic. I have some minor experience with the APA and I can tell you that TEC is looked at horribly through those eyes.

 

[total_Catholic]

I am impressed with all the insightful comments -this does effect real people

I look forward to see if our Priest addresses this issue on Sunday - I suspect that our Priest may not comment at all- however there is no real option for an upset Episcopalian to flee to for shelter - many in our Congregation do not care about SSM -this means that they do not necessarily support it but as long as it does not effect them directly they choose not to think about it-

Indeed the first same sex marriage happened in our Parish last week and there was no uproar at all-but no loud applause either

Many in our Parish view themselves as “rational Catholics” but of course we are not -we continue to move far away from our catholic roots-

ACNA in our part of Florida is small with tiny Churches and even smaller budgets -interestingly many are supported from former Caribean Anglicans such as from Belize or Guyana

As for merging with the ELCA why? -I doubt that Bishop’s from each denomination would jump to give up their authority -to increase numbers? what purpose is that

The Methodist Church came from the Anglican church and they are on the same road as TEC -it will take longer but very likely to happen-those ho wanted to join the Roman catholic Church have long left

I do believe that this is part of the end game - likely the denomination will be gone as a specific recognizable denomination in the next 25 years-most of the members in my Parish will likely ride this out-their grandkids don’t go to Church anyway

There are churches in America that have been brought together and are ran by both TEC and the ELCA. One such is called Grace Mountainside in Robbinsville, NC. They alternate each Sunday between the ELCA worship and the 79 BOC.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not sure why it is impossible to have overlapping provinces. Rules can be changed.

I don’t think there’s a need for two overlapping provinces per se. Perhaps there will be a situation where the ACNA is somewhat province-like, but not technically a province. (Come to think of it, I don’t think TEC is technically one, but I forget the technicalities of that.)

 

[commenter]

I am interested in this, and all threads about Anglicanism; as much as I learn, I see there is so much more I don’t know. It is hard for me to sort out the players, and why they are all so deeply interested in the Anglican Communion.

• There are extreme liberals who dominate TEC, and influence other provinces. I would think they haven’t benefitted from or been guided by the AC for years; they are focused on the Media, politics, higher education. Why should they care about the AC at all?
• There are evangelical types, in all provinces. But the AC isn’t mentioned in Scripture. It has not, to my knowledge, in recent decades been a strong force in facilitating spreading the Bible or evangelism.
• There are Anglo Catholic types. But if they are liberal they would likely not see the AC as a source of authority; if they are conservative, they would presumably not find the AC to be effective at influencing Christians towards traditional values. The AC does not go back to the ECF’s for instance.
• There are groups like ACNA or the Continuum. But why should ACNA want to join the AC if the AC was unsuccessful in slowing down the drift towards secularism? Isn’t that a dangerous association to be part of, especially since the core denomination C of E may be following in the TEC’s footsteps?
• My comments reflect only on my own ignorance, not on the AC or members.

 

[Thorolfr]

I do believe that this is part of the end game - likely the denomination will be gone as a specific recognizable denomination in the next 25 years-most of the members in my Parish will likely ride this out-their grandkids don’t go to Church anyway

That’s certainly possible. As the quote I posted earlier from Professor Callum Brown’s The Death of Christian Britain (Routledge, 2009) says with respect to Britain (p. 4), “Christian church membership accounts for less than 12 per cent of the people and is falling….So weak are the demographics of church connection that the government is now contemplating disestablishing the Church of England.”

And unfortunately, people like Professor Brown aren’t all that sad about the demise of Christianity in Britain either:

"I am saddened by the pain experienced by the communities (including my own) and the loss to the cultural fabric of the nation resulting from church closures. But I do celebrate the death of Christian Britain.

I believe that I lived through that ‘death’ in the 1960s. And yes, I celebrated it both then and, increasingly, since as the magnitude of what happened in the cultural revolution of that decade becomes better appreciated. It freed me and British popular culture as a whole from the relentless misery of an inescapable Christian discourse which governed virtually all aspects of self-identity and expression, community-regulated leisure and domestic life…It was a culture that had, in its last decades between 1945 and1960, been backed by the state through harshly enforced censorship of books and theaters, Sunday closing in many places, of cinemas, public houses, theatres and even children’s playparks, the banning of most forms of gambling, the harsh criminalisation of homosexual relations, and many other things besides. By the 1950s organized Christianity had become characterised by the support of a harsh and vindictive state apparatus that oppressed many pleasures without reason, and hurt the lives of many young people - especially women and gays."

And it’s not just the Church of England, it’s most Christian churches throughout Europe that are dying. Just look at what’s happening in once staunchly Catholic Ireland which voted to allow same-sex marriage last year. Or look at what’s happening to the Catholic Church in France:

France’s Catholic Churches are increasingly bereft of parishioners.

The numbers are grim. Last year, according to reports, more than one-third (35 percent) of France’s population and almost two-thirds (63 percent) of youth said they belonged to “no religion.”

Very few people, an estimated 1-in-20 of the French, regularly attend Mass anymore.

Father Innocent Feugna, an African deacon who toils at St Pierre de Guise in northern France, complained that his congregation in aging and dying out.

“Here I’m preaching to pensioners,” he lamented to BBC.

ibtimes.com/church-decline-frances-vanishing-catholics-1125241

 

[Picky_Picky]

It’s the 1 Bishop rule.

Let us not encourage more deviations. That way lies madness.

Our friends in the RCC seem unworried about breaking this rule (in the Ordinariates, for example) though. Or do I have that wrong?

 

[GKC]

That would be ironic. I have some minor experience with the APA and I can tell you that TEC is looked at horribly through those eyes.

APA is part of what is collectively referred to as the Continuum, and more on the evangelical side than many other such entities.

 

[GKC]

I don’t think there’s a need for two overlapping provinces per se. Perhaps there will be a situation where the ACNA is somewhat province-like, but not technically a province. (Come to think of it, I don’t think TEC is technically one, but I forget the technicalities of that.)

I’d like to know more about such technicalities. TEC is most certainly an Anglican Province in the Anglican Communion.

 

[GKC]

Our friends in the RCC seem unworried about breaking this rule (in the Ordinariates, for example) though. Or do I have that wrong?

Technically the Ordinariates are outside the diocesan hierarchy, and under the Papacy directly. It was one of the innovations of Apostlicae Curae.

 

[theropod]

• There are groups like ACNA or the Continuum. But why should ACNA want to join the AC if the AC was unsuccessful in slowing down the drift towards secularism? Isn’t that a dangerous association to be part of, especially since the core denomination C of E may be following in the TEC’s footsteps?

My opinion alone here. I think the ACNA wants to supersede TEC at the end of the day, and believes that by doing so it can have a larger impact around the world as part of the Communion.

The ACNA would also not be where it is if not for the African provinces that are directly involved. Those are Anglican Communion provinces, so there is probably a desire among the Africans to see the ACNA elevated to full Communion status.

It’s kind of messy, but my diocese is both in the ACNA and in CANA which is part of the Church of Nigeria. Our bishop is a Church of Nigeria bishop. So we are, for the time being, part of the Anglican Communion.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Technically the Ordinariates are outside the diocesan hierarchy, and under the Papacy directly. It was one of the innovations of Apostlicae Curae.

Well, yes, and technically ACNA is outside the diocesan hierarchy and under whoever it is in GAFCON. It doesn’t seem impossible to institutionalise that situation while accepting ACNA as part of the Communion, if the ACC decided to go that way …

 

[GKC]

Well, yes, and technically ACNA is outside the diocesan hierarchy and under whoever it is in GAFCON. It doesn’t seem impossible to institutionalise that situation while accepting ACNA as part of the Communion, if the ACC decided to go that way …

Technically, it is outside the Anglican Communion, though in communion with portions of it, in their capacity as independent Churches.

I don’t underestimate the ingenuity of Anglicanism, however.

Strongly doubt it, though.

 

[GKC]

My opinion alone here. I think the ACNA wants to supersede TEC at the end of the day, and believes that by doing so it can have a larger impact around the world as part of the Communion.

The ACNA would also not be where it is if not for the African provinces that are directly involved. Those are Anglican Communion provinces, so there is probably a desire among the Africans to see the ACNA elevated to full Communion status.

It’s kind of messy, but my diocese is both in the ACNA and in CANA which is part of the Church of Nigeria. Our bishop is a Church of Nigeria bishop. So we are, for the time being, part of the Anglican Communion.

ACNA has always aimed at displacing TEC in the Communion.

 

[Padres1969]

I am impressed with all the insightful comments -this does effect real people

** I look forward to see if our Priest addresses this issue on Sunday** - I suspect that our Priest may not comment at all- however there is no real option for an upset Episcopalian to flee to for shelter - many in our Congregation do not care about SSM -this means that they do not necessarily support it but as long as it does not effect them directly they choose not to think about it-

Indeed the first same sex marriage happened in our Parish last week and there was no uproar at all-but no loud applause either

Many in our Parish view themselves as “rational Catholics” but of course we are not -we continue to move far away from our catholic roots-

ACNA in our part of Florida is small with tiny Churches and even smaller budgets -interestingly many are supported from former Caribean Anglicans such as from Belize or Guyana

As for merging with the ELCA why? -I doubt that Bishop’s from each denomination would jump to give up their authority -to increase numbers? what purpose is that

The Methodist Church came from the Anglican church and they are on the same road as TEC -it will take longer but very likely to happen-those ho wanted to join the Roman catholic Church have long left

I do believe that this is part of the end game - likely the denomination will be gone as a specific recognizable denomination in the next 25 years-most of the members in my Parish will likely ride this out-their grandkids don’t go to Church anyway

As do I. I’m sure she will address it since the African provinces aren’t just against SSM but also are against women’s ordination as well. Both issues impact my church’s congregation greatly.

As you say, day to day the SSM issue has no impact on anyone in the congregation not in a SSM. But overall a sizeable portion of our congregation (approximately 40% give or take) are former Catholics, many of whom left in part due to the RCC’s stance on certain social or theological issues, among them women’s ordination and sexual issues. And with half our parish priests being women, including the dean, and a significant portion of the congregation being homosexual it will have to be addressed. I’d be shocked if the Dean’s sermon Sunday doesn’t address it in detail.

 

[GKC]

As do I. I’m sure she will address it since the African provinces aren’t just against SSM but also are against women’s ordination as well. Both issues impact my church’s congregation greatly.

As you say, day to day the SSM issue has no impact on anyone in the congregation not in a SSM. But overall a sizeable portion of our congregation (approximately 40% give or take) are former Catholics, many of whom left in part due to the RCC’s stance on certain social or theological issues, among them women’s ordination and sexual issues. And with half our parish priests being women, including the dean, and a significant portion of the congregation being homosexual it will have to be addressed. I’d be shocked if the Dean’s sermon Sunday doesn’t address it in detail.

As with much of the otherwise conservative Anglicans, the African provinces are of two minds on that.

So is ACNA.

 

[Thorolfr]

As do I. I’m sure she will address it since the African provinces aren’t just against SSM but also are against women’s ordination as well. Both issues impact my church’s congregation greatly.

The African provinces aren’t just against SSM, some of them are in favor of criminalizing homosexuality:

On February 24, Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni signed into law a bill that outlined harsh punishments for homosexuality, including life in prison for certain homosexual acts. The law, backed by the Anglican Church of Uganda, has drawn criticism from political and religious bodies around the world, including Anglican leaders outside of Uganda.

On Monday, the country’s top archbishop, Stanley Ntagali, came forward to reiterate the Ugandan Anglican Church’s support of the law, even at the expense of greater Anglican solidarity. “The issue here is respect for our views on homosexuality, same sex marriage as a country and church,” Ntagali told AFP. “If they are not willing to listen to us. We shall consider being on our own.”

Former Anglican bishop and peace activist Desmond Tutu criticized the new law, comparing it to the discriminatory policies of Nazi-era Europe and apartheid-era South Africa.

huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/uganda-anglican-church_n_4890603.html