BREAKING: Episcopal Church suspended from Anglican Communion

[theropod]

The African provinces aren’t just against SSM, some of them are in favor of criminalizing homosexuality:

huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/uganda-anglican-church_n_4890603.html

You have to remember the context in with African Christians live. They are under constant suspicion of radical Islamists and are regularly under attack. Whenever the liberal Anglicans do something considered pro-homosexuality, it’s not good for these African Christians. Also, keep in mind that when imprisonment for homosexuality is supported, it’s in opposition to the death penalty wanted by others.

Edit: I never thought I would get to type this, but “check your privilege”.

 

[Thorolfr]

Also, keep in mind that when imprisonment for homosexuality is supported, it’s in opposition to the death penalty wanted by others.

Is it a good Christian principle to support something that’s wrong because it’s better than something worse?

 

[Padres1969]

Is it a good Christian principle to support something that’s wrong because it’s better than something worse?

Thank you for beating me to that one.

 

[theropod]

Is it a good Christian principle to support something that’s wrong because it’s better than something worse?

You are begging the question here. It’s not universally believed that homosexuality should be decriminalized.

I would say that it is best to advocate for the most merciful of all available options. In many places decriminalization is not an option. We also don’t know what acts of mercy happen on the ground and can’t be publicized because attacks by radicals will occur.

 

[Picky_Picky]

You are begging the question here. It’s not universally believed that homosexuality should be decriminalized.

I would say that it is best to advocate for the most merciful of all available options. In many places decriminalization is not an option. We also don’t know what acts of mercy happen on the ground and can’t be publicized because attacks by radicals will occur.

Nonetheless those Anglicans who rest on Lambeth 1.10 for its statement that marriage is between man and woman should also recognise that criminalising homosexuals does not meet the other requirements in Lambeth 1.10.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I chose 3, 5, and 4, in decreasing likelihood, starting from some unknown level of maybeness.

Possibly.

2 is right out of the game. Only thing I wouldn’t caveat with professions of uncertainty. Absent divine intervention.

Three years is a long time. One notes that the vote of the Primates was against the enormities of TEC by a vote in excess of the GAFCON and other hardliner miters in place. There were some moderates joining in. Will this alliance hold? Or will it fade away. Will the deep pockets (or maybe not so deep) of TEC cause a rethinking of the matter? Will the ABC skillfully manage another tightrope act? What will the ACoC do at their Convention, re: SS marriages? What of the CoE, as Picky Picky has pondered?

Interesting times.

Indeed they are and I very much appreciate you jumping into uncertain waters with your possible guesstimates. Thanks for responding.

 

[GKC]

Indeed they are and I very much appreciate you jumping into uncertain waters with your possible guesstimates. Thanks for responding.

You are welcome. Even as only an interested observer, though, it can cause a certain tension, to watch the train wreck.

 

[GKC]

Nonetheless those Anglicans who rest on Lambeth 1.10 for its statement that marriage is between man and woman should also recognise that criminalising homosexuals does not meet the other requirements in Lambeth 1.10.

Made a non responsive comment and deleted it.

Helps to read more of the thread before commenting.

 

[Usige]

No. Not correct.

TEC and ACNA could function in the USA, assuming one is the member province of the Communion east of the Mississippi, and the other west of it. The area under the crook and miter of one Primate is not shared with another Primate, in the same Communion. Bishops don’t cross borders, save if offering alternate episcopal oversight. Which assumes all is not well.

Yes, the ACoC is on thin ice. Not sure they care.

Thanks. What I was getting at is that TEC (or ACoC) could not exist alongside ACNA in the same territory. To attend a church in the communion would be dictated by where that church was. In other words you wouldn’t have an ACNA church down the street from an Episcopal church and the individual could chose which to attend based on their leanings.

So in your example of the ACNA and TEC splitting the US, it would mean that any Episcopalian church in the ACNA area would have to essentially cede it’s territory to the new bishop. It is probably more nuanced than that, but it’s not like the Catholic Church that could have a Latin Rite and Byzantine Catholic church within block of each other where both are in full communion with Rome.

The main reason I am curious is there is a small Anglican church (not Episcopalian) in our town that was formed about 6 - 7 years ago. I always assumed it was British expats that had planted a CofE church in town, but only recently learned it was formed after some members felt the TEC had lost it’s Christian bearings after the last Lambeth conference. I was always trying to figure out the relationship between this Anglican church and the larger Episcopalian church on the other side of town.

 

[GKC]

Thanks. What I was getting at is that TEC (or ACoC) could not exist alongside ACNA in the same territory. To attend a church in the communion would be dictated by where that church was. In other words you wouldn’t have an ACNA church down the street from an Episcopal church and the individual could chose which to attend based on their leanings.

So in your example of the ACNA and TEC splitting the US, it would mean that any Episcopalian church in the ACNA area would have to essentially cede it’s territory to the new bishop. It is probably more nuanced than that, but it’s not like the Catholic Church that could have a Latin Rite and Byzantine Catholic church within block of each other where both are in full communion with Rome.

The main reason I am curious is there is a small Anglican church (not Episcopalian) in our town that was formed about 6 - 7 years ago. I always assumed it was British expats that had planted a CofE church in town, but only recently learned it was formed after some members felt the TEC had lost it’s Christian bearings after the last Lambeth conference. I was always trying to figure out the relationship between this Anglican church and the larger Episcopalian church on the other side of town.

My continental divide comment was facetious. I’m like that a lot.

I suspect the Anglican Church you are speaking of is something like one of the Anglican Continuum Churches, that arose (and proliferated mightily), after around 1978. That is what is referred to, generally, as the Anglican Continuum.

Assuming it’s not a ACNA parish.

 

[Usige]

My continental divide comment was facetious. I’m like that a lot.

I suspect the Anglican Church you are speaking of is something like one of the Anglican Continuum Churches, that arose (and proliferated mightily), after around 1978. That is what is referred to, generally, as the Anglican Continuum.

Assuming it’s not a ACNA parish.

It is an ACNA parish (I had checked this morning ).

I was just making sure that I understood that you can’t really overlay two different Anglican churches in the same geography. If you are theologically conservative in the US you currently have two choices. Suck it up and just bear what TEC proclaims or attend an Anglican church that is not in the communion. In many ways, that’s not any different than the RC in that you can’t simply go down the street and join a Catholic church that proclaims divorce, adoptionism, and 5 sacraments if that fits your leanings. I guess the main difference is in Anglicism one could go to a different region and have different canons and doctrines then over the border.

Again my apologies if I am misunderstanding how the communion and geographies work.

 

[commenter]

Technically the Ordinariates are outside the diocesan hierarchy, and under the Papacy directly. It was one of the innovations of Apostlicae Curae.

.
Might be helpful to add they are outside the territorial diocesan hierarchy. They are within the Latin Rite, and like the Military Ordinariates they are not limited to boundaries other than national. But their Ordinary does function as part of the USCCB, and probably whatever they have in England and Australia. The Ordinariates, Anglican and Military, function as their own diocese. Opus Dei is similar, but somewhat different.

re: TEC as a province:
“I’d like to know more about such technicalities. TEC is most certainly an Anglican Province in the Anglican Communion” (from GKC)

From me:
I’m surprised you would be interested in technicalities, as such. Reading hundreds of your posts here, I would have guessed you to be more vague, rather than one with attention to detail. Who knew?

 

[GKC]

.
Might be helpful to add they are outside the territorial diocesan hierarchy. They are within the Latin Rite, and like the Military Ordinariates they are not limited to boundaries other than national. But their Ordinary does function as part of the USCCB, and probably whatever they have in England and Australia. The Ordinariates, Anglican and Military, function as their own diocese. Opus Dei is similar, but somewhat different.

re: TEC as a province:
“I’d like to know more about such technicalities. TEC is most certainly an Anglican Province in the Anglican Communion” (from GKC)

From me:
I’m surprised you would be interested in technicalities, as such. Reading hundreds of your posts here, I would have guessed you to be more vague, rather than one with attention to detail. Who knew?

I’m subtle.

Clarification noted. They are Personal Prelatures, yes?

 

[SyroMalankara]

My continental divide comment was facetious. I’m like that a lot.

I suspect the Anglican Church you are speaking of is something like one of the Anglican Continuum Churches, that arose (and proliferated mightily), after around 1978. That is what is referred to, generally, as the Anglican Continuum.

Assuming it’s not a ACNA parish.

What about the foreign Anglican Communion jurisdictions functioning independently within the US TEC territory such as CSI and CNI? I think I might have asked this before? How are they “legal”?

 

[GKC]

It is an ACNA parish (I had checked this morning ).

I was just making sure that I understood that you can’t really overlay two different Anglican churches in the same geography. If you are theologically conservative in the US you currently have two choices. Suck it up and just bear what TEC proclaims or attend an Anglican church that is not in the communion. In many ways, that’s not any different than the RC in that you can’t simply go down the street and join a Catholic church that proclaims divorce, adoptionism, and 5 sacraments if that fits your leanings. I guess the main difference is in Anglicism one could go to a different region and have different canons and doctrines then over the border.

Again my apologies if I am misunderstanding how the communion and geographies work./QUOTE

You can’t overlay two Anglican Communion parishes from two different Anglican Communion entities in the same geography, both Provinces being located in the same territory .

If you are TEC, you might parish shop to see if you can improve your lot. Not all TEC parishes are alike, in their acceptance of what is decreed. Some refugee parishes might still be found, I hear.

 

[GKC]

What about the foreign Anglican Communion jurisdictions functioning independently within the US TEC territory such as CSI and CNI? I think I might have asked this before? How are they “legal”?

I have no idea. Where are they functioning?

At any rate, they are not formed as a separate Province, in the TEC territory.

I bet.

 

[Little_Sheep]

I am a cradle Episcopalian with 16 years of Episcopal church schooling. I am also a catechist in our smallish (800 people) parish. Our youth formation is vibrant and devout, well-attended and well-supported, so I wouldn’t count the next generation of Episcopalians out just yet!

I appreciate those on this thread who have acknowledged the human hurt involved in the “wet noodle slap” from the Anglican community. Bishop Curry summed it up beautifully. I have seen some of that hurt up close and personal, tears down the faces and tears on the hearts of fellow Christians I love with all my soul.

Some years ago, there was a similar painful stretching surrounding TEC’s decision to allow women to serve as priests. But today, even those Episcopalians who were once horrified at the thought of women in the priesthood love our women who have answered God’s call. I suspect this issue will follow a similar path.

I feel blessed to be a member of the Episcopal Church. It has given me the world, which is to say it has given me the face of Jesus in the faces of all my fellows.

I understand that this is a devout Catholic board and that our ways are not exactly your ways and I am not here to change any minds. Much like the Anglican community, I consider the Catholic community our Christian brethren in all the ways that truly matter. In my mind, there’s no need small differences should separate us from the heart of a merciful God, lived out in the hearts of each other.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have no idea. Where are they functioning?

At any rate, they are not formed as a separate Province, in the TEC territory.

I bet.

Just in the Chicago area alone there are 8-10 Church of North and Church of South India parishes that report only to their home Indian bishops (they are divided by which minister started the parish or the majority constituents in which specific bishop they report to).

 

[Padres1969]

I am a cradle Episcopalian with 16 years of Episcopal church schooling. I am also a catechist in our smallish (800 people) parish. Our youth formation is vibrant and devout, well-attended and well-supported, so I wouldn’t count the next generation of Episcopalians out just yet!

I appreciate those on this thread who have acknowledged the human hurt involved in the “wet noodle slap” from the Anglican community. Bishop Curry summed it up beautifully. I have seen some of that hurt up close and personal, tears down the faces and tears on the hearts of fellow Christians I love with all my soul.

Some years ago, there was a similar painful stretching surrounding TEC’s decision to allow women to serve as priests. But today, even those Episcopalians who were once horrified at the thought of women in the priesthood love our women who have answered God’s call. I suspect this issue will follow a similar path.

I feel blessed to be a member of the Episcopal Church. It has given me the world, which is to say it has given me the face of Jesus in the faces of all my fellows.

I understand that this is a devout Catholic board and that our ways are not exactly your ways and I am not here to change any minds. Much like the Anglican community, I consider the Catholic community our Christian brethren in all the ways that truly matter. In my mind, there’s no need small differences should separate us from the heart of a merciful God, lived out in the hearts of each other.

Very well said. Couldn’t have put it any better myself. And I agree, despite differences that’s why I frequent this board, as there’s always more that unifies us than divides us.

 

[GKC]

Just in the Chicago area alone there are 8-10 Church of North and Church of South India parishes that report only to their home Indian bishops (they are divided by which minister started the parish or the majority constituents in which specific bishop they report to).

Not all that surprising. I don’t know the details, but it is obviously an arrangement between TEC and the CNI and CSI. Which, all three, are member Provinces of the Anglican Communion, only one of which is actually geographically defined as in the United States. And which is the sole member Province of the Communion so based.