Breaking Point [Immigration]

[Wolseley]

wabrams:

Because he was speaking the truth. Go look at pictures from the protests and interviews with protesters; many were saying it’s already their country and some were saying they shouldn’t have to learn English.

From the same Fred Reed article:

"If they don’t want to assimilate, don’t have to assimilate, and don’t have the wherewithal to assimilate—don’t expect assimilation.

Further, Latin Americans resent the United States for its great wealth and for their own poverty, which they tend to blame on exploitation by American corporations. Whether this characterization is correct (it isn’t) doesn’t matter. The resentment does.

Mexicans know that much of the American southwest was once part of Mexico, taken from them by force of arms. Americans, having been the victors and in any case being historically illiterate, know little of this. Mexicans do. Few know the dates or the politics, yet they have a sense of grievance, a sense that these states are really theirs. They are getting them back. They know it. They view the reconquista with the relish with which they watch a Mexican soccer team beat the US."

 

[LCMS_No_More]

wabrams:

Because he was speaking the truth. Go look at pictures from the protests and interviews with protesters; many were saying it’s already their country and some were saying they shouldn’t have to learn English. Last time amnesty was offered (1987), hardly any of the then 2.5 mil illegal immigrants took it, so I think it’s safe to say a great many won’t take it this time either.

I disagree. I believe that there’s a double standard. You don’t know what people want yet you assume that you know and state it as though it were the truth. That’s a violation of the rules.

Now, dealing with the issue, yes, SOME “illegals” don’t want to aculturate. They come to work and go home. That was the cycle before the 1986 Immigration “Reform and Control” Act. On the other hand, MANY DO want to aculturate and have been doing so.

Also, let’s remember something…we’re talking about HUMAN PERSONS, not locusts or some kind of vermin to be eliminated.

 

[Vaclav]

For starters, they are not doctors, chemists, and airline pilots. Successful Mexicans do not want to go to the United States. Mexicans who are merely comfortable do not want to go to the United States. They like Mexico. This is very difficult to explain to most Americans, who know beyond doubt that Mexico has lesser malls. But it is a fact.

The Mexicans who go north are the losers, the failures, the barely if at all literate, those with little to offer. They go because the Mexican economy is wretched, because the jobs that left the United States for Mexico are now leaving Mexico for China. Money. The United States can run a first-world economy. Mexico cannot. Why is debatable. The fact isn’t.

While Mexicans are good people, their dregs often are not. On average the immigrants are uncultivated, uneducated, and of low intelligence. One may not mention the matter of intelligence, but it is well known among people who pay attention to such things, and has implications for the future. America is getting those Mexicans least worth getting, the least assimilable, and getting them in circumstances that do not encourage assimilation. Unlikely to prosper, they show signs of becoming another unsalvageable underclass."

That may well be one of the most awful articles I have ever read.

Being uneducated, illiterate, uncultivated, or of low intelligence does not make one a “dreg” or not one of the “good people.”

Please tell me that is not a teaching of the church.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

well what would you like me to do?

Work to effect change in Mexico.

I have worked in the orphanages to help the children,

Something I’m confident God continues to Bless you for doing.

I have written letter to statesmen after statesment after statesmen explaining what I saw in the orphanages and in the city streets.

That’s a good place to begin.

Even so far as to writing a letter to President Bush and President Fox, from Bush I got nothing, from Fox I got a letter thanking me for my time as a student and worker in his “Beautiful” country. I work in my Church food bank, we know that a lot of them are illegals, through the Legion we come across them as well, so I am doing my part, the best I can,

Sounds like you are working to help as best you can with those who suffer the ravages of poverty.

but as usual the US seems to have no desire to want to help them out, just keep them out.

This is where you err, respectfully. You have no evidence the US does not want to help the poor of Mexico out. I’m going to guess more aid via charities is donated from the US for poor Mexicans than any nation on earth.

You want to give these people a fish so they can eat today? Wonderful. But 1st, teach them how to catch their own Then they won’t be breaking our laws to catch their own fish. They’ll be able to do so in their own country.

 

[Geldain]

Vaclav:

That may well be one of the most awful articles I have ever read.

Truth is sometimes tough to read.

Being uneducated, illiterate, uncultivated, or of low intelligence does not make one a “dreg” or not one of the “good people.”

Nor does it mean you can’t be one of the bad people.

Please tell me that is not a teaching of the church.

Based on what you’ve written about all you’ve read thus far, I’m pretty sure you already know it’s not

 

[TarAshly]

Because they dont trust us! Can you blame them?

wabrams:

Because he was speaking the truth. Go look at pictures from the protests and interviews with protesters; many were saying it’s already their country and some were saying they shouldn’t have to learn English. Last time amnesty was offered (1987), hardly any of the then 2.5 mil illegal immigrants took it, so I think it’s safe to say a great many won’t take it this time either.

 

[TarAshly]

I hope to God not! They are not criminals, they are people, would any one really tell a priest this? would you tell your priest to his face what so many of you have said? I have a feeling you wouldnt like his answer! So whats the deal? are we only good charitable Catholics to Americans?

wabrams:

It might be a felony soon.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

Because they dont trust us!

Why and how do you know they don’t?

Can you blame them?

Yes, I can. With a clear conscience.

 

[wabrams]

LCMS_No_More:

I disagree. I believe that there’s a double standard. You don’t know what people want yet you assume that you know and state it as though it were the truth. That’s a violation of the rules.

Whatever you say, since it seems your arguements continuelly gets shot down, this is what you have to resort to.

LCMS_No_More:

Now, dealing with the issue, yes, SOME “illegals” don’t want to aculturate. They come to work and go home. That was the cycle before the 1986 Immigration “Reform and Control” Act. On the other hand, MANY DO want to aculturate and have been doing so.

You don’t know what people want yet you assume that you know and state it as though it were the truth. That’s a violation of the rules. (I swear I’ve read that before )

LCMS_No_More:

They come to work and go home. That was the cycle before the 1986 Immigration “Reform and Control” Act.

How do you know it has changed?

LCMS_No_More:

Also, let’s remember something…we’re talking about HUMAN PERSONS, not locusts or some kind of vermin to be eliminated.

First off, chill out with the big letters; it doesn’t help get your point across.

Second, no one is saying they have to be eliminated, but something has to be done. This free for all policy has got to be stopped then something doen with 11mil that are still here.

 

[wabrams]

TarAshly:

Because they dont trust us! Can you blame them?

Then they should leave, or the people that want them here so bad, illegal or not, should help them learn to trust the government and start the process to become citizens.

 

[TarAshly]

Oh ok, I get it. the only ones deserving of coming the US are the intelligent, cultured clean classy kind of Mexicans huh? yea, thats a good view point to have, (not the poster, but Mr. Fred Reed) who is this guy anyway? some Gringo who thinks he knows the people of Mexico? Underclass huh? sounds to me like Mr. Reed is the classless one.

Wolseley:

Fred Reed, who lives in Guadalajara, makes a very pertinent point on this topic:

"Who then are the emigrants?

For starters, they are not doctors, chemists, and airline pilots. Successful Mexicans do not want to go to the United States. Mexicans who are merely comfortable do not want to go to the United States. They like Mexico. This is very difficult to explain to most Americans, who know beyond doubt that Mexico has lesser malls. But it is a fact.

The Mexicans who go north are the losers, the failures, the barely if at all literate, those with little to offer. They go because the Mexican economy is wretched, because the jobs that left the United States for Mexico are now leaving Mexico for China. Money. The United States can run a first-world economy. Mexico cannot. Why is debatable. The fact isn’t.

While Mexicans are good people, their dregs often are not. On average the immigrants are uncultivated, uneducated, and of low intelligence. One may not mention the matter of intelligence, but it is well known among people who pay attention to such things, and has implications for the future. America is getting those Mexicans least worth getting, the least assimilable, and getting them in circumstances that do not encourage assimilation. Unlikely to prosper, they show signs of becoming another unsalvageable underclass."
(lewrockwell.com/reed/reed43.html)

Just an observation.

 

[Vaclav]

Truth is sometimes tough to read.

No it isn’t. I come from a country that executed millions in concentration and death camps. I can read about truth easily.

An opinion placing people who are basically extremely poor and uneducated as the equivalent to not being of the “good people” of Mexico, is tough to read. Another component left out by the author is the fact that in almost every Latin American nation there is a problem of race. Those of close Spanish/European heritage tend to be better off than those of Native American/Mixed/African heritage and many times the internal structures aren’t in place to provide proper education and a society that values educaion to these people.

It isn’t a teaching of the Church and I’m disappointed to find it respected here.

 

[wabrams]

TarAshly:

I hope to God not! They are not criminals, they are people, would any one really tell a priest this? would you tell your priest to his face what so many of you have said? I have a feeling you wouldnt like his answer! So whats the deal? are we only good charitable Catholics to Americans?

I would be more than happy to tell my priest what I have said on this forum.

We are charitable Catholics to all, but we can’t let a group of people (illegal immigrants) bankrupt our country, causing 10 times that many to be in the same situation.

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

I hope to God not! They are not criminals, they are people,

People who knowingly break the law are, by definition, criminals.

would any one really tell a priest this? would you tell your priest to his face what so many of you have said?

In a heartbeat.

I have a feeling you wouldnt like his answer!

I have a stronger feeling you don’t know my priest.

So whats the deal? are we only good charitable Catholics to Americans?

No, we are to be charitible to all. If an illegal alien knocks on my door because they were injured in a car wreck on the corner, I am going to do everthing in my power to help them get the medical attention they require.

If an illegal alien knocks on my door and asks if they can mow my yard and during the conversation I learn they are in the country illegally, I am going to call the local immigration authority and report them.

 

[Wolseley]

Vaclav:

That may well be one of the most awful articles I have ever read.

Being uneducated, illiterate, uncultivated, or of low intelligence does not make one a “dreg” or not one of the “good people.”

Please tell me that is not a teaching of the church.

Fred Reed is a long ways from being a teacher of the Church, believe me.

I’m not saying that illegal immigrants are dregs (Fred, on the other hand, is).

My point in quoting the article is merely to point out that most of the illegals who come here are coming because they need money (who doesn’t?), but because of their numbers and ability to contribute to growing the American economy, they are as a result an underclass which depends on public assistance to one degree or another.

Needing public assistance in itself isn’t an evil thing, but if the numbers become too great, the assistance system breaks down, with appropriate negative results for everybody----providers, recipients, taxpayers, dependants, etc.

Wouldn’t a better solution be to provide a way for the Mexican and American governments to educate, train, and employ these people, rather than the current system of Mexico allowing them to shift for themselves, and America giving them free handouts and below-subsistance jobs?

 

[TarAshly]

Because of a personal friend who is here illegally, an elderly woman who came here several years ago. When she had to have her hip replaced we had to beg and beg and beg her to go, she nearly died of phenomia because she wouldnt go to the Doctor for fear of deportation. The attorney she hired to get her legal, took of with her 5000 dollars and she wont tell the police, because they might deport her. She places no faith in the system, only in her church, where the vast majority of parishoners are illegals. *they *are each others only sanctuary. They do not trust us and I dont blame them.

Geldain:

Why and how do you know they don’t?

Yes, I can. With a clear conscience.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Vaclav:

No it isn’t. I come from a country that executed millions in concentration and death camps. I can read about truth easily.

An opinion placing people who are basically extremely poor and uneducated as the equivalent to not being of the “good people” of Mexico, is tough to read. Another component left out by the author is the fact that in almost every Latin American nation there is a problem of race. Those of close Spanish/European heritage tend to be better off than those of Native American/Mixed/African heritage and many times the internal structures aren’t in place to provide proper education and a society that values educaion to these people.

It isn’t a teaching of the Church and I’m disappointed to find it respected here.

Don’t confuse them with the facts!

 

[Geldain]

Vaclav:

No it isn’t. I come from a country that executed millions in concentration and death camps. I can read about truth easily.

So your admitting to being desensitized? Interesting.

An opinion placing people who are basically extremely poor and uneducated as the equivalent to not being of the “good people” of Mexico, is tough to read.

Interesting.

Another component left out by the author is the fact that in almost every Latin American nation there is a problem of race. Those of close Spanish/European heritage tend to be better off than those of Native American/Mixed/African heritage and many times the internal structures aren’t in place to provide proper education and a society that values educaion to these people.

Interesting.

It isn’t a teaching of the Church and I’m disappointed to find it respected here.

???

 

[MikeWM]

Vaclav:

It isn’t a teaching of the Church and I’m disappointed to find it respected here.

As always, it is worth seeing what the Church actually does think.

*In a letter to the full U.S. Senate released April 4, Bishop Gerald R. Barnes, chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Committee on Migration, called the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (CIRA) of 2006, reported to the U.S. Senate last week by the Senate Judiciary Committee, “a good start” and called upon Senators to “support efforts to bring the Judiciary committee-reported bill to a vote.”

…

Bishop Barnes pointed to several provisions in Title II of the bill which the USCCB finds questionable, including mandatory detention provisions, the expansion of expedited removal, restrictions on judicial review, and the increase in the authority of local law enforcement to enforce federal immigration law. The Bishop asked Senators to “eliminate or ameliorate these and other highly problematic provisions in Title II as the Senate debates this legislation.”

But Bishop Barnes expressed optimism that the U.S. Senate, and ultimately Congress, will pass a bill which is worthy of a nation of immigrants. “Ultimately, the U.S. Catholic Bishops support a comprehensive approach to immigration reform that would improve the U.S. immigration system so that it is humane, secure, and reflects the values upon which our nation- a nation of immigrants-was built,” he said. “We are pleased that the Senate Judiciary Committee reported a comprehensive measure rather than a measure that addressed only one aspect of our immigration problems. This is a good start but the full Senate needs to do more to make it a measure worthy of our nation’s tradition as a welcoming nation,” Bishop Barnes stated.*

usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-069.shtml

That sounds fair and in line with Catholic social teaching to me.

Mike

 

[Geldain]

TarAshly:

Because of a personal friend who is here illegally, an elderly woman who came here several years ago. When she had to have her hip replaced we had to beg and beg and beg her to go, she nearly died of phenomia because she wouldnt go to the Doctor for fear of deportation. The attorney she hired to get her legal, took of with her 5000 dollars and she wont tell the police, because they might deport her. She places no faith in the system, only in her church, where the vast majority of parishoners are illegals. *they *are each others only sanctuary. They do not trust us and I dont blame them.

So you’ve created a stereotype based on one person’s feelings and experience and your personal experience relating to that person? Hmmmm, isn’t there a term for that?