Breastfeeding and the breast

[CRV]

I personally find it scandalous that normal, non-sexual bodily functions are treated as being inherently sexual or arousing.

I am assuming that you’re meaning of scandalous is in the secular context. If I’ve misunderstood your use of the term, then I’m sorry.

But I meant it as in giving scandal - leading another into sin - and I had in mind, thoughts.

God bless.

 

[Ghosty1981]

I am assuming that you’re meaning of scandalous is in the secular context. If I’ve misunderstood your use of the term, then I’m sorry.

It is scandalous to me in both the secular and Catholic sense. Those who treat normal, healthy, non-sexual bodily functions as sexual encourage a sexualized perception of the human body that is unnatural and immoral. To treat open breastfeeding as sexual scandalously sexualizes the relationship between a mother and her child and encourages the perception of the human body itself as inherently base and sexually immoral. This attitude implies a sexual dimension between Mary and Christ, the most perfect and pure relationship ever experienced between human and God, and sexualizes centuries of Holy Iconography.

So insisting on the covering up of breastfeeding is scandalous in the secular sense, but it is much more so in the Catholic moral sense.

Peace and God bless

 

[JulianN]

And whilst a man is responsible for custody of his eyes, there is also the matter of giving scandal (as the church means it and not as secular society means it). I think giving scandal is a forgotten sin and not often discussed.

It’s just important that we make it crystal clear that openly breastfeeding does not in any way constitute giving scandal.

 

[CRV]

Those who treat normal, healthy, non-sexual bodily functions as sexual encourage a sexualized perception of the human body that is unnatural and immoral.

Been that way since the year dot. Blame strip clubs, brothel houses, certain magazines, pornography, society, fashions etc etc.
As other posters have said in this thread, men see womens breasts’ in a sexual light. Breastfeeding babies is a function, certainly. But as this is a public forum and we have members who can be as young as 13, I’ll refrain from detailing bedroom antics.

To treat open breastfeeding as sexual scandalously sexualizes the relationship between a mother and her child

I don’t agree. The relationship between mother and child is a completely separate issue.

encourages the perception of the human body itself as inherently base and sexually immoral.

Well I certainly don’t think see the body as inherently base or immoral. The body has many functions. But I well know how some men think when seeing an exposed breast. Not to mention how some men view women - and have for ages including experiences of nightclubs, and recent court proceedings against footballers and tinder dates. I will not comment further along these lines as I don’t wish to stray too far off topic.

This attitude implies a sexual dimension between Mary and Christ, the most perfect and pure relationship ever experienced between human and God, and sexualizes centuries of Holy Iconography.

That’s your opinion. Not mine. Nowhere did I mention BVM or our Lord.

insisting on the covering up of breastfeeding is scandalous in the secular sense, but it is much more so in the Catholic moral sense.

Then obviously we are not going to agree. Each to their own opinion.

God bless.

 

[CRV]

It’s just important that we make it crystal clear that openly breastfeeding does not in any way constitute giving scandal.

I fail to see how you can rule out in all cases any individual man who as a result of seeing a fully exposed breast, all possibility of some men having inappropriate thoughts.
An excellent article by a priest about What is scandal? - “Another obvious way of committing scandal is by giving bad example, without necessarily intending to lead others into sin.” So I don’t see how you can rule out every single possible response in every single case.

I respect your opinion, so will agree to disagree .

 

[JulianN]

I guess it’s fortunate the pope spoke out about this. Based on your reasoning, a woman who wears sandals is giving scandal to a man with a foot fetish. And we can agree that’s not true, yes?

 

[CRV]

Based on your reasoning, a woman who wears sandals is giving scandal to a man with a foot fetish.

For a start I think that’s off topic and deliberately sarcastic and an attempt to belittle me as I refuse to concede to you.

I honestly fail to understand why mutual respect for peoples points of view is so difficult for some posters.

As the Pope hasn’t spoke excathedra, then we are free to agree or disagree, wouldn’t you say. iirc, the Pope said he had saw no issue with breastfeeding in itself, but I am unaware of him stating his views on how this is to be done - discreetly or with the whole side from collar bone to waist exposed.

 

[CRV]

I have yet to see a fully exposed breast from a nursing mother in Church.

I wish I could say the same. This was my experience sometime in the last few months I think. There were a couple of families waiting up the front of the Church for their babies to be baptised. I can’t remember now, but for whatever reason I walked back up to the front and as I passed one mother I could see as I approached she had her baby on her lap. I was not prepared to see her whole side exposed as I’ve said above in my other posts.

or maybe a few members have such an issue with either breastfeeding or women in general that this provides an outlet to over-exaggerate what you think might be happening. Why not? It’s a great place to shame nursing moms and make oneself feel better about their own insecurities and personal issues with lactating females.

I would hope this isn’t a direct slap in the face or that you are denigrating what is my opinion on the matter or what my experience has been.

ETA I am now bowing out of this thread, as it is obvious that if you don’t agree with the herd, you’re belittled into submission. Very unfortunate. So out of respect and courtesy and charity I take my leave.

 

[JulianN]

I am absolutely not trying to belittle you. Nor do I think it is off-topic to point out that the idea of ‘giving scandal,’ when based on the sinfulness of the observer, can lead to a place no one wants to go. This is the logic behind a burqa, for example.

Yes, the pope did not speak ex cathedra, but if that’s the only time we listen to the pope, we’d have ignored the last few. He was making it clear this is not an issue of modesty or scandal.

Of course you are free to disagree, but it’s important that others who read this understand that your opinion applies only to you and not to a woman who chooses to feed her baby openly.

 

[dochawk]

For a start I think that’s off topic and deliberately sarcastic and an attempt to belittle me as I refuse to concede to you.

It’s an apt comparison: whose fault is it when someone sexualizes non-sexual behavior by another.

There’s a huge gap between sandals or breastfeeding on the one hadn’t, and prancing up the aisle for communion in a skimpy bikini top and a thong . . .

 

[IdaCatholic]

What is your interpretation of that in light of this thread?

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

That myob doesn’t take any concern for your weaker brethren. So, sure it is permissible but that isn’t the yard stick of of a Christian.

Regarding the pope’s comments, American sensibilities are not Italian or Argentinian sensibilities.

 

[JulianN]

So where do we draw the line? One of our weaker brethren is turned on by feet—no sandals. One has a problem with arms—no short sleeves.

In this case, the mother needs only to take one weaker person’s concern into account: her baby’s. Everyone else really does need to learn to deal with it.

 

[babochka]

Regarding the pope’s comments, American sensibilities are not Italian or Argentinian sensibilities.

This is part of the problem. Judging from this thread, we do not have a general agreement on this issue in our society.

 

[IdaCatholic]

I was afraid that’s what you meant. You really should consider the sensibilities of women who are doing only what has been done for history and who’s vocation is hard.
To be honest. I can’t believe the uncharitable and downright medieval view of women.

Today my wife nursed our 3 week old at Mass. She had to sit. I dont know if you are familiar with breast feeding but you dont really see a lot. My wife doesnt cover, and unless you are creepily and actively trying to see something you would see the upper breast and a baby’s head.
In fact in general I see more of my wife when she is not nursing.
I’m glad that we dont attend the same mass. Having a large family and a baby is a stressful time at Mass and I’m glad those around us aren’t as condemning as people online.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I was afraid that’s what you meant. You really should consider the sensibilities of women who are doing only what has been done for history and who’s vocation is hard.
To be honest. I can’t believe the uncharitable and downright medieval view of women.

Today my wife nursed our 3 week old at Mass. She had to sit. I dont know if you are familiar with breast feeding but you dont really see a lot. My wife doesnt cover, and unless you are creepily and actively trying to see something you would see the upper breast and a baby’s head.
In fact in general I see more of my wife when she is not nursing.
I’m glad that we dont attend the same mass. Having a large family and a baby is a stressful time at Mass and I’m glad those around us aren’t as condemning as people online.

Were you as comfortable with breast feeding as a teenage boy? My kids are 28, 27 and 25 now and I’m roundly mature in my understanding, but as a teenage girl, I was uncomfortable with exposed breasts. Being brought up in a very Catholic family I tended to modesty quite consciously. When I was breast feeding my kids I was conscious of young people as I had been. I loved breast feeding my bubs but I also remembered the conundrum I experienced before I was there. There may come a time where we can like Adam and Eve, all walk around naked but until then we have to factor in the devils temptations.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Fortunately, the world does not revolve around what behavior might possibly bother teenagers bursting with hormones. If it did, we’d all be wearing burkas most of the time.

If somebody of any age is going to be that bothered by a mom breastfeeding in church, then don’t sit by women with small babies. If they sit by you, excuse yourself and move to a different seat. Better yet, learn to tune out what other people are doing. I had a kid (who turned out to be a visiting relative of the priest) turning around and staring at me about 15 times at Mass a couple days back, and it made me uncomfortable but since I did not want to change seats (I was sitting by the AC because the church is hot) I just forced myself to ignore it. I’m sure a breastfeeding mom can be similarly ignored if you put your mind to it.

 

[F_Marturana]

My youngest is 10.

I had one for him, because he was premature and I had to learn to keep up a good supply, and he had to learn to transition from tube feeding, to oral feedings. Preemies need to learn how to coordinate suck and swallow and nor forget to breathe. My son used to forget to breathe. It’s scary to see that.

 

[blackforest]

This wish list is well and good, but you have the baby to consider. I don’t mean to insult your intelligence if you have a lot of experience with babies, but they’re part of the nursing process, too.

By the time they could turn their little heads, mine would LIFT my shirt up to kingdom come while they were nursing. Sometimes they’d be eating away, hear an interesting noise, and suddenly turn away leaving a nipple exposed for a few milliseconds. Were my babies “giving scandal?” I should think not.

“Giving scandal” is much more serious business than just feeding babies when everyone else should retain custody of the eyes.

If a married woman corners another married man at coffee-and-donuts after Mass and starts flirting incessantly - or if a church administrator gets everyone else on board with cooking the books financially - then we can talking about “giving scandal.”

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

I’d wager that most people would be overly subtle and modest or wouldn’t breastfeed in front of the Pope in a way that was remotely discomforting, so why in front of others?