Brick Wall Returning To The Catholic Church.

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MichaelKelly

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I am having a very difficult time with the Catholic Churches eccumenical outreach to Muslims. It appears that the stance I have heard on EWTN is that they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Yet, the NT clearly states that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And that anyone who does not believe Jesus is the Son of God cannot enter Heaven. So, why are we not addressing this with the Muslim community and giving them the “whole Gospel?” It apears that we are as blind to the danger being lukewarm in this area as we were with the libreral’s in the 60’s and look what they have done to the American Catholic Church! Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life…not Muhammad or anything he has taught.
 
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MichaelKelly:
I am having a very difficult time with the Catholic Churches eccumenical outreach to Muslims. It appears that the stance I have heard on EWTN is that they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Yet, the NT clearly states that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And that anyone who does not believe Jesus is the Son of God cannot enter Heaven. So, why are we not addressing this with the Muslim community and giving them the “whole Gospel?” It apears that we are as blind to the danger being lukewarm in this area as we were with the libreral’s in the 60’s and look what they have done to the American Catholic Church! Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life…not Muhammad or anything he has taught.
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This argument also applies to the Jewish faith also? I dont see to many Catholics out there converting them or trying to…Why?
 
That’s not true Karin, ecumenism in the Pope’s priorities is #3, and that includes Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox, and more.

You can get a very good read on why this is important in JP II’s biography by George Weigel, but in short, read the first post, then think of these statements:
  1. It is not our position to judge, those that judge will be comdemned. It is Jesus’s place to judge man.
  2. All men are made in the likeness of God.
  3. God loves all mankind infinitely.
  4. Everyone has a right to religious freedom, whether we agree with them or not. If people don’t have that freedom, they live in a totalitarian society and likely suffer persecution.
So - given this, isn’t it a better, more Christian course for the Pope and the Church to pursue, to work together, seek understanding on the things we agree on, and work together on the common areas where we can make the world better (poverty, violence, persecution, etc.)? That is the goal.
 
The teaching that there will be some saved who were not visible members of the Catholic Church in no way excuses us from evangelizing. The teaching is much more complex than you have stated it, therefore, you have stated it wrongly.

The understanding is that there will be some who will please God by living their lives according to the graces God gave them and the light by which they had to use it. There are good people who are either invincibly ignorant of the Church and Christ’s teaching, as well as those who have insurmountable obstacles of cultural bias or fear that will not allow them to explore the claims of the Catholic Church.

God is merciful, not wishing that any be lost. This is why he sent his Son to redeem the world through his death and resurrection, thus opening the way of salvation to all men. Explicit faith is not required. What is required is the desire to love God and one’s neighbor and to live in accord with the graces God gives to each of us. You forget that the mentally disabled and small children do not have the ability to make any assent to belief, either, and yet they are saved by means of their baptism.

Anyone who desires to love and serve God and his neighbor is acceptable in God’s sight not in spite of Jesus’ death on the cross but because of it. What saves them is a baptism of desire–that they would have been baptized and entered the Church if they had had the opportunity to do so. And we do not know how many fulfill this and how many don’t among non-Catholics. Only God can know that. Our job is to take the Good News to all the world, giving as many as possible the opportunity of knowing and loving God and their neighbor in the fullness of the faith found in the Church, through which God brings salvation to all who desire it.
 
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MichaelKelly:
I am having a very difficult time with the Catholic Churches eccumenical outreach to Muslims. It appears that the stance I have heard on EWTN is that they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Yet, the NT clearly states that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And that anyone who does not believe Jesus is the Son of God cannot enter Heaven. So, why are we not addressing this with the Muslim community and giving them the “whole Gospel?” It apears that we are as blind to the danger being lukewarm in this area as we were with the libreral’s in the 60’s and look what they have done to the American Catholic Church! Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life…not Muhammad or anything he has taught.
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We need to try to bring them about, absolutely. The question is, how? We are at a point in history where, due to political correctness and the way society looks at things, if we go and preach hard the way one would have in the past, it is going to do nothing but drive the Muslim, or whoever, away. Basically, you catch more flies with honey. One of the major reasons the Jehovah’s Witnesses are so good at attracting people is that they are incredibly nice people in general, or at least the ones that go around talking to people. People see this fruit and come to faith out of it, especially when they come from some church full of mean or spiteful people.

St. Francis once said, “Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary, even use words.” In fact, think of how Jesus appraoched the question. When it came to the Jews, people who shared His beliefs, He went right at it. But when it came to other peoples, like the Samaritan woman, He started off just by making conversation. He didn’t jump right in to some theological arguement, or hand out a pamphlet saying, “accept Jesus or burn,” or anything. He just talked to her. That’s how we have to do it.

This is most of all true because we have to remember that not a single one of us can do a single thing to bring a single person to faith. That is completely up to God. He needs to work on their hearts. We can’t do anything other than give a little information here and there. So what it coems down to is that we make the information availible, that we always be sure not to deny truth, and that we let God work on people. This is what JPII, and now B16… did/do/is doing. When they have meetings with people of other faith, they always keep Jesus in it from their side, they almost always say something along the lines of, “we hope that you can come to fullness of faith in Christ,” and then get on to business, or something of the sort. They live the life and show off God that way, they keep Christ in it, they mention Him, and then they let God get to work. If a Muslim at that meeting is moved by God, he can go find the info online or he can ask someone, in general.

Also remember that Moses and Elijah and Abraham never heard of Christ. They had no faith in Jesus. They had faith in God, but they only had faith in a very… incomplete understanding of Him. They knew nothing of the trinity of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, they were saved through faith in God, which is faith in Jesus, even if one doesn’t know it. So too can a Muslim or Jew be saved if He truly seeks out God.
 
Now, if I understand this correctly, in so far as the Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, they are worshiping the same God that we are.

As a Catholic, I don’t believe the Koran is revelation from God. Therefore, it was either a fabrication of Muhammad or it came from someone or something else.

Islamic apologists say that the Koran is too perfect and beautiful to have been generated from an uneducated man like Muhammad. It’s also unlikely that a group of conspirators wrote the book and were able to keep their conspiracy a secret. That leaves only a non-Godly supernatural source for it’s origin.

When speaking to Muslims, I don’t bring this point up because it’s never profitable to the conversation but did I go wrong in my logic some where?
 
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Karin:
This argument also applies to the Jewish faith also? I dont see to many Catholics out there converting them or trying to…Why?
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Because the CC has officially stopped doing so.​

chretiens-et-juifs.org/article.php?voir%5B%5D=290&voir%5B%5D=8938

“The Roman Catholic reflections describe the growing respect for the Jewish tradition that has unfolded since the Second Vatican Council. A deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, together with a recognition of a divinely-given mission to Jews to witness to God’s faithful love, lead to the conclusion that campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church.”

If that is so, can I please return to the C of E 🙂 ? After all - why bother with Gentiles, if the Jews can stay as they are ? ##
 
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Maranatha:
Now, if I understand this correctly, in so far as the Muslims worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, they are worshiping the same God that we are.
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The worshop Allah…one God

Catholics worship the Triune God.

Does not sound quite the same to me. The only similarity is in the use of the term “one God”.

They worship Allah, and teach that Jesus is only a man.

Does not sound quite like the same God to me.
 
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MichaelKelly:
I am having a very difficult time with the Catholic Churches eccumenical outreach to Muslims. It appears that the stance I have heard on EWTN is that they worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Yet, the NT clearly states that the only way to the Father is through Jesus. And that anyone who does not believe Jesus is the Son of God cannot enter Heaven. So, why are we not addressing this with the Muslim community and giving them the “whole Gospel?” It apears that we are as blind to the danger being lukewarm in this area as we were with the libreral’s in the 60’s and look what they have done to the American Catholic Church! Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life…not Muhammad or anything he has taught.
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what makes you think we are not addressing the Muslim community and giving them the whole Gospel?

Last time I heard the Pope speak about Christ and the Gospel, he didn’t give me a ring on the telephone. It was very public; it was during World Youth meeting.

And I suspect that he has had a thing or two to say since then in very public ways.

The bishops, too, are mostly speaking in very public ways about the Good News.

What exactly is it you want someone to do? Go to Saudi Arabia, stand on a street corner, pull out a Bible and start reading it to each passerby? that will lead to a rather short trip to a rather restrictive jail, and possibly death.

How is it exactly that you would have someone do this? Where would this be done, that you seem to think is not being done? Have you attended any official meetings between representatives of the Church and the Muslims?

Given that both JP2 and Benedict 16 have met with Muslim leaders, are you criticisizing how they do that, or are you just unaware of the fact that they have met?

And given that Benedict 16 has made ecumenism one of the, if not the main goals of his papacy, is this something you disagree with?

Or is it simply that you have not read what the Church actually has said about ecumenism, and about salvation?

I am curious, as I have seen this type of comment before, and I never can figure out what is really driving the point, unless it is coming from a position that the Church is wrong about the statements it has made concerning salvation.
 
It is really stupid that the Catholic Church is in dialogue with the Moslems. The Moslem religion is the most evil and demonic inspired religion that has ever been perpetrated on mankind. The Koran commands all Moslems to kill the infidels which are according to the Koran the Jews and the Christians.
 
Mark Danich:
It is really stupid that the Catholic Church is in dialogue with the Moslems. The Moslem religion is the most evil and demonic inspired religion that has ever been perpetrated on mankind. The Koran commands all Moslems to kill the infidels which are according to the Koran the Jews and the Christians.
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Such lovely and Christian comments:( :rolleyes: …I hope all Christians dont show this much love for people of other faiths.
 
Karin,

Well that is the truth about the Moslem religion. Look it up for yourself in the Koran and you will find out that the Koran commands all Moslems to kill the infidels who are according to the Koran the Jews and the Moslems. Then love is supposed to be shown to a religion that commands its followers to kill the Jews and the Christians?
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Because the CC has officially stopped doing so.
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Not true, and I’m sick of hearing this.

The “BISHOPS’ ECUMENICAL AND INTERRELIGIOUS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE” is not an official organ of the Catholic Church and has no authority to set Church policy. This group is a bunch of misguided liberal clerics who do not understand the gospel they are supposed to be preaching.

Read the CCC paragraphs 816 - 821 for the true Catholic position on ecumenism.

Here’s a link to the Catechism online:
kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

Paul
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Because the CC has officially stopped doing so.

chretiens-et-juifs.org/article.php?voir%5B%5D=290&voir%5B%5D=8938

“The Roman Catholic reflections describe the growing respect for the Jewish tradition that has unfolded since the Second Vatican Council. A deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, together with a recognition of a divinely-given mission to Jews to witness to God’s faithful love, lead to the conclusion that campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church.”

If that is so, can I please return to the C of E 🙂 ? After all - why bother with Gentiles, if the Jews can stay as they are ? ##
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The way I see it is, the covenant with God and His Chosen People is everlasting.

Even though the Old Covenant was fulfilled on God’s part through Jesus Christ, the fact there are so many Jews who do not recognize that fulfilment does not invalidate the Old Covenant with God.

God will bring to each remaining Jewish person the revelation of the Truth as He always has with them, and from what I’ve read in scripture, He sure is patient with them. Perhaps it’ll be through the Church, perhaps it will be by a natural event…we know it won’t be through another prophet, though…but it could be through any number of other means, no?

We do hear/read conversion stories…they’re slow, but they are happening. We do not know what God has next in mind for His First Born (as he referred to them thru Moses to Pharoah, and why he killed Egypt’s first born), but we can trust He’ll take care of them as He always has and promised He always will.

The Church, however, was established for the second wave, so it seems, the rest of God’s family. It is a New Covenant with a New People, in one respect. Jesus’ resurrection fulfilled the Old and created a New covenant, but it didn’t erase the first. God and the Chosen People are forever bound.
 
Mark Danich:
Karin,

Well that is the truth about the Moslem religion. Look it up for yourself in the Koran and you will find out that the Koran commands all Moslems to kill the infidels who are according to the Koran the Jews and the Moslems. Then love is supposed to be shown to a religion that commands its followers to kill the Jews and the Christians?
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Ahem…

Jesus loved and forgave the very people who crucified Him.

God’s love is for every single human person in existence.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t like it that way.

What matters is that, if you are a Christian, you are called to follow His lead, open your heart, pray, pray, and pray some more until all people are joined with God in Heaven.
 
But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute you:Matthew 5

But love ye your enemies: do good, and lend, hoping for nothing thereby: and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest; for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil. Luke 6

But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me. Luke 19
(this one sounds similar…)
 
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PaulDupre:
Not true, and I’m sick of hearing this.

The “BISHOPS’ ECUMENICAL AND INTERRELIGIOUS AFFAIRS COMMITTEE” is not an official organ of the Catholic Church and has no authority to set Church policy. This group is a bunch of misguided liberal clerics who do not understand the gospel they are supposed to be preaching.

Read the CCC paragraphs 816 - 821 for the true Catholic position on ecumenism.

Here’s a link to the Catechism online:
kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

Paul
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Thanks for the clarification about that council…

but the catechism link didn’t really address the issue about whether or not to work toward converting the Jewish people…

or am I missing something?

It hadn’t occurred to me the church would ever state a position one way or the other, but now that it’s been suggested She has in a manner to say we aren’t obliged to reach out to them, it would be nice to find a statement or two which says we are to reach out to them as much as any other person, or moreso, even, since they are the First Born… no?
 
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YinYangMom:
Ahem…

Jesus loved and forgave the very people who crucified Him.

God’s love is for every single human person in existence.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t like it that way.

What matters is that, if you are a Christian, you are called to follow His lead, open your heart, pray, pray, and pray some more until all people are joined with God in Heaven.
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Totally agree with you here…but Mark was not showing this …he was showing pure hatred for the people of Islam
 
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