Bridge churches?

[Matt_V]

You summarized the problem here very well. Those cradle Latins like myself who move East generally do so because of a growing love and appreciation of Eastern spirituality. Some of course move because of complaints with the Latin Rite, others just attracted by the beauty of the Eastern praxis. Then we’re told its “like being Orthodox but in communion with the Pope”. And this is where the problem begins. We start learning about Orthodox spirituality, often from Orthodox sources like books and websites. Then we realize the parish is nothing more than a “Roman Catholic parish with an Eastern Liturgy”. There is a big disconnect then with the spirituality you are pursuing and the one being practiced in the parish. Most people are there because they belong to the traditional ethnicity of the mother Church. People like myself are there for the Eastern spirituality. But when you start learning more about their culture (not that it is a bad thing) than things like Theosis, and there’s more Peroggy Supper Nights than Vespers, you know you are in the wrong place (btw, I love perrogies, so it isn’t necessarily a bad thing). And after a few years in the Eastern Catholic parish trying to grow in the Eastern praxis, you are left wanting and spiritually unfulfilled. And where else would you find genuine Eastern praxis but in an Orthodox parish. Especially if there is a notable priest in your area who is a good teacher of genuine Eastern faith.

In my own move from the Roman church to Orthodoxy I thought an Eastern Catholic church might be a reasonable compromise without making the break in communion. It was a years-long difficult process. However (and I do not mean to offend - just relating personal impressions), there were too many what I might call inconsistencies or incongruities in my becoming or practising as Eastern Catholic. Again not trying to offend, just relating personal experience - I would have felt not quite Catholic and not quite Orthodox.

On the other hand, not all of Orthodoxy consists of intense spirituality. There is plenty of lukewarm faith there, too.

 

[Nine_Two]

On the other hand, not all of Orthodoxy consists of intense spirituality. There is plenty of lukewarm faith there, too.

Metropolitan Jonah gave a talk at my parish, and he mentioned that a lot of people complain that they joined the Orthodox Church to find that spirituality, and then can’t find it.
Spirituality is a very personal thing and is often not discussed beyond the priest. It isn’t necessarily a group thing.

Of course as you say, there are many of lukewarm spirituality.

 

[Rolltide]

One more photo. For the record, this is the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Las Lajas, or Las Lajas Cathedral in Colombia, built in 1916 on the site of a local apparition of the Virgin Mary. Since the Virgin appeared in 1756 on the canyon wall during a storm, the bridge was necessary to reach the site.

 

[Peter_J]

And where else would you find genuine Eastern praxis but in an Orthodox parish. Especially if there is a notable priest in your area who is a good teacher of genuine Eastern faith.

This may seem random, but in church this evening, I heard the passage

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[a] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”** (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” (Romans 10)**

and it occurred to me that we might say, by extension, ‘Do not say “Who will go East?” (to find Christ there)’ since he is in the West (and the North and the South) as well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Of course as you say, there are many of lukewarm spirituality.

It definitely is everywhere! Of course we are not pretending that Orthodoxy is the perfection of faith. I would have to agree that it all depends too on the priest in the parish. If that RC priest I really liked never left our parish, I would have stayed Roman Catholic to this day.

and it occurred to me that we might say, by extension, ‘Do not say “Who will go East?” (to find Christ there)’ since he is in the West (and the North and the South) as well.

Do you think we would move if we can find Christ where we are?

 

[oyaji]

I’ve noticed a nasty trend; a slight arrogance among Orthodox as they believe they and only they have valid sacraments and the Catholic Church does not, a very un-Christian, and in many cases downright hatred for anything Catholic…especially the Pope, which I find sad.

In order to be considered a faithful Orthodox, you must despise the Catholic Church and consider all Catholics heretics on the way to hell.

So it is naive to believe the Eastern Catholic Church is a bridge from the Orthodox Church to the Catholic Church.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I’ve noticed a nasty trend; a slight arrogance among Orthodox as they believe they and only they have valid sacraments and the Catholic Church does not, a very un-Christian, and in many cases downright hatred for anything Catholic…especially the Pope, which I find sad.

In order to be considered a faithful Orthodox, you must despise the Catholic Church and consider all Catholics heretics on the way to hell.

So it is naive to believe the Eastern Catholic Church is a bridge from the Orthodox Church to the Catholic Church.

Absolutely untrue. By your standards, nobody at my parish, including the priests, would be a faithful Orthodox Christian, which is both insulting and absurd. But let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the Orthodox do believe those things (which the Orthodox do not). Tell me, just because you reject certain tenets of Reformed theology as heretical, does it mean that you believe Calvinists are destined for hell? If so, how can you fault anybody for doing the same? If not, why then would you think that the Orthodox would necessarily believe that Roman Catholics are destined for hell (and I can tell you that we definitely do not presume to think that we know such a thing, for that is for God alone to know), just because we reject certain tenets of the Roman Catholic faith? And do you think the Catholic Church arrogant for its rejection of Anglican sacraments? If not, then how can you fault the Orthodox for doubting the validity of Catholic sacraments? Doesn’t that seem like an unfair double standard?

 

[dzheremi]

Where do non-Orthodox get the idea that we’re sitting around in some kind of cabal, badmouthing the Roman Pope and talking about Roman Catholic sacraments are “invalid”? It’s bizarre. In reality (meaning: in an actual parish, not on the internet), nobody talks about any of this stuff. We’re busy with liturgy, vespers, agpeya/horologion, fasting, charity, worldwide evangelization, trying not to be murdered in our homelands (for the middle eastern churches, anyway), etc. You think we have either the time or the inclination to sit around making snide proclamations about this or that aspect of a church that we’re not even in communion with? That is arrogance, my friend. Rome is not the center of the world, and it is neither hateful nor un-Christian to disagree with the Roman Catholic Church, and that’s all we’re doing; and believe me, it really doesn’t come up nearly as often as some of you seem to think it does. I welcome you all to come visit us at St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Church in Albuquerque, meet our priests and laity, dine with us over the agape meal and even chat with the Catholics who regularly visit us. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by what you see us actually focusing on. It’s not at all like you think it is. We don’t bite unless you’re made of fava beans.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Adding to Dzheremi’s point, does disagreeing with Jews make us anti-semites (even though we have several million people of semitic descent in Orthodoxy)? Does disagreeing with the Buddhists make us anti-Buddhists or with the Hindus anti-Hindus? Why is that that we can reject these religions without being anti anything, but when we disagree with the Roman Catholic Church, we are anti-Catholic and un-Christian?

 

[dzheremi]

I wonder if this article by Antiochian priest Fr. Andrew Damick on the question of who is Christian and who is not might shed some light on this “X, Y, Z (stance, communion, practice, etc.) is un-Christian” idea. The removing or bestowing of the “Christian” label from a given group by another that is not in communion with those they are (not) recognizing is not only really silly, but as Fr. Andrew argues, actually against the ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church. Hence, it’s not right to be bothered or bother others with such accusations, pleading, etc. Be whatever you are and if you are truly right, that should be enough for you.

 

[oyaji]

Absolutely untrue. By your standards, nobody at my parish, including the priests, would be a faithful Orthodox Christian, which is both insulting and absurd.

I am simply pointing out what I have noticed from a few weeks of reading several hundred posts from various Orthodox forums and from x-Orthodox as well. Before looking further into Eastern Catholicism, since I am interested in changing rites, I had no idea the level of animosity that the Orthodox have towards Catholics and the Pope. So like you, I felt insulted as well.

But let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the Orthodox do believe those things (which the Orthodox do not). Tell me, just because you reject certain tenets of Reformed theology as heretical, does it mean that you believe Calvinists are destined for hell? If so, how can you fault anybody for doing the same? If not, why then would you think that the Orthodox would necessarily believe that Roman Catholics are destined for hell (and I can tell you that we definitely do not presume to think that we know such a thing, for that is for God alone to know), just because we reject certain tenets of the Roman Catholic faith? And do you think the Catholic Church arrogant for its rejection of Anglican sacraments? If not, then how can you fault the Orthodox for doubting the validity of Catholic sacraments? Doesn’t that seem like an unfair double standard?

You are making a ton of assumptions here based on my previous post.

I have been scandalized by what I saw as unbridled hatred towards the Catholic Church by Orthodox whom the Catholic Church sees as brothers and sisters who have valid sacraments and who can take part in the Eucharist in any Catholic Church in the world.

But it is not reciprocated.

Just a few short months ago I barely knew the Eastern side of the Catholic Church existed, but have been deeply moved by the Byzantine Liturgy, Icons, etc. And of course this has also led me into the Orthodox world as well. A world I knew nothing about, and probably still do not.

 

[makechcs]

Custom Sweatshirts

 

[oyaji]

This is not my contention, but that of an x-Orthodox who joined the Catholic Church whom I have been in contact with. I certainly hope it not to be true but he was/is convinced of it.

 

[oyaji]

So are those who claim to be Orthodox not really Orthodox because they are on the internet?

While x-members of any organization can and do exaggerate the bad, they can also be spot on.

I admit I know little about the Orthodox Church; which is why I sought out information via the internet. And what I found was the Orthodox Church consider themselves to be the only true Church. They consider Catholics to be heretics and will not allow Catholics to receive the body and blood of Jesus at its Divine Liturgy.

And even if you and some of the Orthodox on this forum cannot admit it, there is a palatable undertone of anti-Catholicism among them just as there are among the evangelical Protestants.

 

[oyaji]

I am simply making an observation gleaned from all the research I have done online in the past few weeks. May be, as a previous poster implied, they are not really Orthodox since they are making various statements about Catholicism on the Internet

I will continue to read, learn and understand more about the Orthodox Church.

 

[oyaji]

You can obtain basic facts and some other information about Orthodoxy online but internet forums tends to be very partisan by their nature. What other poster implied they were not Orthodox because they made statements about Catholicism, I have not seen that in any posts thus far. You live in Japan I note, is there an Orthodox Church anywhere near you as the Orthodox have parishes there. If so visit and talk to real people I would suggest.

I believe there is a very small Orthodox Church that just opened its doors but its far away from me.

I will be moving to the US next April and plan to celebrate the Divine Liturgy at a Byzantine Catholic Church, and change rites as well.

Remember also the great persecutions the Orthodox have undergone in the last 100 years, the many passion bearers and martyrs who died for the faith in horrific manners. The Orthodox have managed to preserve their faith amidst a truly terrible period of darkness.

And the fact that much of that persecution was from Western Catholics is scandalous. I have great respect and admiration for Orthodox Christians and hope and pray that someday we can overcome our differences and worship as one.

 

[DadDave]

There are plenty of Catholics on CAF here who call Orthodox heretics, schismatics, or worse.
I’ve seen the polemical Orthodox sites, but have also seen many that use honey rather vinegar to catch flies (so to speak).
I would suggest checking out ancientfaith.com

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

There are plenty of Catholics on CAF here who call Orthodox heretics, schismatics, or worse.

Never seen them. Most of the people here are very nice, and those that aren’t are usually banned within a few days.

 

[DadDave]

Never seen them. Most of the people here are very nice, and those that aren’t are usually banned within a few days.

Usually won’t see them is this sub-forum – they’re typically the same ones who hate the OF of the Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ve noticed a nasty trend; a slight arrogance among Orthodox as they believe they and only they have valid sacraments and the Catholic Church does not, a very un-Christian, and in many cases downright hatred for anything Catholic…especially the Pope, which I find sad.

In order to be considered a faithful Orthodox, you must despise the Catholic Church and consider all Catholics heretics on the way to hell.

So it is naive to believe the Eastern Catholic Church is a bridge from the Orthodox Church to the Catholic Church.

And where do you find this? People on the internet? If you are non-Catholic and you go around this forum you might come to the same conclusion about Catholics.

Here’s the thing, if people are honest about their faith, it will offend those not of that faith as being hateful. I’ve heard Protestants say who hateful Catholics are for turning them away from Communion. I regularly speak with an Orthodox priest and he always apologizes to me for being honest, but he is being honest. He doesn’t pretend about what they believe about the Papacy and about other aspects of the Catholic faith.

I think you are just being subjective here. You are expecting the Orthodox to say the same things we say about them. They do not tell us what we are to believe, and we do not tell them what they are to believe. If we want to say they are a valid Church, they don’t have to complement us back with the same remark if that is not what they believe. Its not about “being nice” but the facts of one’s belief.