Bridging the "Faith Alone" Divide

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Yes, it is a past event. But it is also a present event and a future event. Abraham was justified in Gen.12, in Gen15, in Gen17 and in Gen21. It is not a one time event. Justification is to make just, not simply to declare just as any good Greek dictionary will tell you.

James does not simply say you show your faith by your works. You do, but those works are actually justifying you. They actually make you just. It says clearly a man is not justified by faith alone but by works. Your association of justification in James 2 with your second definition above is simply a pharisaical definition of justification. As Christ says, you speak from the abundance of your heart[Matt.12]. Justification is a change of the heart which occurs over time. It does not occur in a single moment. If that were the case no Christian would ever sin. Paul would not have had to rebuke Peter as he retells in Galatians. Paul would not have had to rebuke the Christians of Rome in Romans. There would be no need for it because they would already be completely justified. You are not justified completely, sanctified completely, freed completely and etc. until you are disassociated completely from sin. As Christ says, he who sins is a slave to sin[John8].

It is simply sophistry to make the distinction between faith and ‘living faith’. You are twisting the words of scripture to say that it is by faith alone but not really by faith alone. Simply agree with James when he says that a man is not justified by faith alone but by his works. That is the only place in scripture where the term ‘faith alone’ ever appears and it is in the negative. It is simply sophistry which protestants engage in to try to justify their doctrine of faith alone.
I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6.

In the book of Romans, justification is clearly a declaration of one to be legally righteous…it is contrasted and used together with condemnation which is not a process. These are one-time declarations. Hence we have “justified” in the past tense as I have showed you in Romans 5:1,9, Romans 6:7, and 1 Corinthians 6:11. It is something that is done. We are dead to the law…it no longer has jurisdition over us…

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The law has no more jurisdiction over the elect because they are in Christ…sin is not imputed to us…we are no longer “in our sins” (ref.1Cor 15:17). We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous (1John 2:1). We have eternal life (James 5:24)

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now **no condemnation **for those who are in Christ Jesus.

WHY - because we are justified! Now we are changed - God changes us just like he brought the dead to life…gave sight to the blind, gave hearing to the deaf…etc…only from a spirtual standpoint.

2 Corinthians 5:17 NAS95 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

(cont’d)
 
Yes, it is a past event. But it is also a present event and a future event. Abraham was justified in Gen.12, in Gen15, in Gen17 and in Gen21. It is not a one time event. Justification is to make just, not simply to declare just as any good Greek dictionary will tell you.

James does not simply say you show your faith by your works. You do, but those works are actually justifying you. They actually make you just. It says clearly a man is not justified by faith alone but by works. Your association of justification in James 2 with your second definition above is simply a pharisaical definition of justification. As Christ says, you speak from the abundance of your heart[Matt.12]. Justification is a change of the heart which occurs over time. It does not occur in a single moment. If that were the case no Christian would ever sin. Paul would not have had to rebuke Peter as he retells in Galatians. Paul would not have had to rebuke the Christians of Rome in Romans. There would be no need for it because they would already be completely justified. You are not justified completely, sanctified completely, freed completely and etc. until you are disassociated completely from sin. As Christ says, he who sins is a slave to sin[John8].

It is simply sophistry to make the distinction between faith and ‘living faith’. You are twisting the words of scripture to say that it is by faith alone but not really by faith alone. Simply agree with James when he says that a man is not justified by faith alone but by his works. That is the only place in scripture where the term ‘faith alone’ ever appears and it is in the negative. It is simply sophistry which protestants engage in to try to justify their doctrine of faith alone.
I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6.

In the book of Romans, justification is clearly a declaration of one to be legally righteous…it is contrasted and used together with condemnation which is not a process. These are one-time declarations. Hence we have “justified” in the past tense as I have showed you in Romans 5:1,9, Romans 6:7, and 1 Corinthians 6:11. It is something that is done. We are dead to the law…it no longer has jurisdition over us…

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The law has no more jurisdiction over the elect because they are in Christ…sin is not imputed to us…we are no longer “in our sins” (ref.1Cor 15:17). We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous (1John 2:1). We have eternal life (James 5:24)

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now **no condemnation **for those who are in Christ Jesus.

WHY - because we are justified! Now we are changed - God changes us just like he brought the dead to life…gave sight to the blind, gave hearing to the deaf…etc…only from a spirtual standpoint.

2 Corinthians 5:17 NAS95 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

(cont’d)
 
(cont’d)

The process of Sanctification where one is made holy and conformed to the image of Christ then begins by the Word and by the Spirit of God.

I believe that the Catholic Church seeks to make justification a process because they believe that you can become unsaved. Well…the elect WILL be saved…they will be glorified…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

And it is only the elect that will have salvation. There are no justified non-elect. These three groups are not apparent in scripture…only two - the ones on whom He has mercy and the ones whom He passes over and are subsequently hardened. Once the elect are justified - they will be glorified - they will be saved. And the elect cannot and will not fall away.

James 2 is very clear…I am not sure how anyone can say what you are saying with all due respect. You are using a very small portion of James 2 to defend your point whereas I have a very large portion to defend my point in this case…

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone **says he has faith **but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this **KIND of faith **save him???

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; ***show me your faith ***without the works, and I will ***show you my faith ***by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

***19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. ***

What ***KIND ***of faith is this - about as good as demonic faith!

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Of course…in this sense…you are not justified by faith alone. Faith that is alone is DEAD faith…this is the sense in which he is driving at.The whole passage is about the nature of the faith and this is quite apparent. This word justified is also not being used in the same sense as is in Romans…and clearly is being shown in the sense that is indicated in the bold print below…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

The faith and the works - YES - are both joined to Abraham BUT the relationship of each to Abraham are different. Faith comes first…then comes action as a fruit of the faith…A faith THAT works.
 
(cont’d)
The faith and the works - YES - are both joined to Abraham BUT the relationship of each to Abraham are different. Faith comes first…then comes action as a fruit of the faith…A faith THAT works.
A lot of non-catholics christians I know have "A fatih THAT DOES NOT works. They are so firmly entrenched in the idea that faith is the ONLY thing one needs that anything else is a waste of time, thought, and energy. Is it true faith if a rabid anti-catholic is here doing nothing but slinging mud?
 
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crisco:
James 2:24: You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

This is James’ answer to his question in 2:14. Can faith (on its own) save (justify) someone?
James question in 2:14 is not, as you phrase it, “can faith (on its own) save (justify); in saying that, you leave out a very important description of the faith James is speaking about; namely, that “someone” spoken of merely claims to have faith; James never says that he has faith, but:“if someone SAYS he has faith…can that faith save him?”The construction of the question expects a “NO” answer.

James is not talking about works saving someone; has made it clear in 1:17, 18, that everything is a gift from God, including salvation (cf Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8ff).
 
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teachccd:
What is the context of Matthew 25:31-46?? Aren’t we divided by what we do as we see Jesus in all???
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
 
A lot of non-catholics christians I know have "A fatih THAT DOES NOT works. They are so firmly entrenched in the idea that faith is the ONLY thing one needs that anything else is a waste of time, thought, and energy. Is it true faith if a rabid anti-catholic is here doing nothing but slinging mud?
Who is this rabid anti-Catholic? If you are indicating that it is me, you have wrongly judged. I speak only to the doctrines.
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
Pardon me, sandusky, but I can’t see anywhere in that passage anything about receiving the Gospel. He didn’t say that the sheep *“listened and believed the gospel” *to “the least of these,” but that they fed, clothed, comforted and visited them. You are reading something into it that isn’t there.
 
What does “dikaioo” mean in the book of Romans??

Romans 8:33-34 NAS95 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who** justifies**; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

This is a legal declaration! This is the context of Romans.
No it isn’t a legal declaration. That passage does not indicate in any way that it is a legal declaration. It means exactly what it means in James, to put in a right relationship, to give to each his due. That is what it means to justify. It has nothing to do with legal declarations. The word was not created by Paul, it is an ancient Greek word and it has a meaning. Its meaning is to give to each their own. Here is the first definition of dikaiow in my Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon
to set right
The passive form of the word means
proved, tested
 
Pardon me, sandusky, but I can’t see anywhere in that passage anything about receiving the Gospel. He didn’t say that the sheep *“listened and believed the gospel” *to “the least of these,” but that they fed, clothed, comforted and visited them. You are reading something into it that isn’t there.
Who does Christ elsewhere identify as sheep, and how is it that one becomes a sheep?
(Rom 10:17ff).

(cf Mt 10:40-2; 18:5; Lk 10:16; Jn 13:20; Gal 4:14, et al).
 
No it isn’t a legal declaration. That passage does not indicate in any way that it is a legal declaration. It means exactly what it means in James, to put in a right relationship, to give to each his due. That is what it means to justify. It has nothing to do with legal declarations. The word was not created by Paul, it is an ancient Greek word and it has a meaning. Its meaning is to give to each their own. Here is the first definition of dikaiow in my Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon
to set right
The passive form of the word means
proved, tested
That is a small definition…and “to set right” does not set too badly with me. Reading the context of Romans shows us clearly that we are speking of a courtroom setting with one delcaring one to be righteous - obviously based on the merits and righteousness of Christ…past tense also suggests this…

*Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 NAS95 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 6:7 NAS95 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.*

We have been made to die to the law…it no longer has jurisdiction over us from a penal standpoint…Pardoned!!

I will say again that Paul’s statements here strengthen our position…

*Romans 6:1 NAS95 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Romans 6:14-15 NAS95 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!*

Justification - a declaration of righteousness…

Romans 3:9 NAS95 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

All condemned - all sinners - all guilty…

Romans 3:19 KJV 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

All guilty - all condemned…Those that have been justified cannot be condemned…We see these words - guilty…charge…condemn…justify…law…we are speaking of a legal declaration when speaking of justification…and I will say it again, it is past tense for the believer.

John 5:24 KJV 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 8:1 KJV 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:33-34 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And as Rom 5:1 says…this produces a peace with God…we are reconciled…sons, heirs, accepted in the beloved.

Again - the elect will be justified and then glorified. And there are only two groups, elect and non-elect…the one’s whom he has mercy on and the ones whom He allows to be hardened…and the elect will never fall away.

Ephesians 1:3-8 KJV 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
 
“Waste of time” may be a bit harsh, but that was my reaction. I was nearly finished reading an article called “Justification by Faith Alone” when I came across the disappointing line “Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here…” The kind of justification seemed important to the topic.I don’t. Faith is more of a direct object… “have faith”.
Angainor-

Akin has written dozens of articles breaking all this down into bite-sized chunks: Merit, Righteousness, TULIP, you name it.

It’s all out there on the web - that’s how I found it.

Other articles include the information you seek…this is just one piece of the puzzle.
 
“Waste of time” may be a bit harsh, but that was my reaction. I was nearly finished reading an article called “Justification by Faith Alone” when I came across the disappointing line “Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here…” The kind of justification seemed important to the topic.I don’t. Faith is more of a direct object… “have faith”.
Angainor-

Akin has written dozens of articles breaking all this down into bite-sized chunks: Merit, Righteousness, TULIP, you name it.

It’s all out there on the web - that’s how I found it.

Other articles include the information you seek…this is just one piece of the puzzle.
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. We’ll be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd
 
No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly. 😉
You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd
 
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