Bridging the "Faith Alone" Divide

[teachccd]

No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly.

You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly.

You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.

It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.

It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.

It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly.

You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. Will be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd

 

[Randy_Carson]

(cont’d)

The process of Sanctification where one is made holy and conformed to the image of Christ then begins by the Word and by the Spirit of God.

I believe that the Catholic Church seeks to make justification a process because they believe that you can become unsaved. Well…the elect WILL be saved…they will be glorified…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

And it is only the elect that will have salvation. There are no justified non-elect. These three groups are not apparent in scripture…only two - the ones on whom He has mercy and the ones whom He passes over and are subsequently hardened. Once the elect are justified - they will be glorified - they will be saved. And the elect cannot and will not fall away.

James 2 is very clear…I am not sure how anyone can say what you are saying with all due respect. You are using a very small portion of James 2 to defend your point whereas I have a very large portion to defend my point in this case…

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone **says he has faith **but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this **KIND of faith **save him???

What translation is this from? I don’t recall seeing it before.

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

Does “faith that works” produce something? What specifically?

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; ***show me your faith ***without the works, and I will ***show you my faith ***by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

***19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. ***

What ***KIND ***of faith is this - about as good as demonic faith!

They have intellectual knowledge - just as the Catholic Church defines it. What they lack is trust in God and love for him. Just as the Catholic Church defines them. What is the problem here?

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Of course…in this sense…you are not justified by faith alone. Faith that is alone is DEAD faith…this is the sense in which he is driving at.The whole passage is about the nature of the faith and this is quite apparent. This word justified is also not being used in the same sense as is in Romans…and clearly is being shown in the sense that is indicated in the bold print below…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

The faith and the works - YES - are both joined to Abraham BUT the relationship of each to Abraham are different. Faith comes first…then comes action as a fruit of the faith…A faith THAT works.

Link-

Could you point to a verse that specifically tells us that James and Paul are speaking of different kinds of faith?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Randy_Carson]

(cont’d)

The process of Sanctification where one is made holy and conformed to the image of Christ then begins by the Word and by the Spirit of God.

I believe that the Catholic Church seeks to make justification a process because they believe that you can become unsaved. Well…the elect WILL be saved…they will be glorified…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

And it is only the elect that will have salvation. There are no justified non-elect. These three groups are not apparent in scripture…only two - the ones on whom He has mercy and the ones whom He passes over and are subsequently hardened. Once the elect are justified - they will be glorified - they will be saved. And the elect cannot and will not fall away.

James 2 is very clear…I am not sure how anyone can say what you are saying with all due respect. You are using a very small portion of James 2 to defend your point whereas I have a very large portion to defend my point in this case…

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone **says he has faith **but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this **KIND of faith **save him???

What translation is this from? I don’t recall seeing it before.

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

Does “faith that works” produce something? What specifically?

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; ***show me your faith ***without the works, and I will ***show you my faith ***by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

***19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. ***

What ***KIND ***of faith is this - about as good as demonic faith!

They have intellectual knowledge - just as the Catholic Church defines it. What they lack is trust in God and love for him. Just as the Catholic Church defines them. What is the problem here?

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Of course…in this sense…you are not justified by faith alone. Faith that is alone is DEAD faith…this is the sense in which he is driving at.The whole passage is about the nature of the faith and this is quite apparent. This word justified is also not being used in the same sense as is in Romans…and clearly is being shown in the sense that is indicated in the bold print below…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

The faith and the works - YES - are both joined to Abraham BUT the relationship of each to Abraham are different. Faith comes first…then comes action as a fruit of the faith…A faith THAT works.

Link-

Could you point to a verse that specifically tells us that James and Paul are speaking of different kinds of faith?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Now, my children, show zeal for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of our fathers. Remember the deeds of the fathers, which they did in their generations; and receive great honor and an everlasting name. Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness? (1 Maccabees 2:50-52)

Does this passage support Paul or James?
Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[sandusky]

teachccd:

You put a very interesting, actually distorted, twist to a very straight forward message. We’ll be judged on how we see Christ in others and service them. That is exactly what this passage (Matthew 25:31-46) says and that’s exactly what it means. Very interesting how so many people put into (eisegesis) Scripture whatever it takes to promote their misled doctrines…teachccd

That’s very easy to say; please, explain the passage to me, and please, identify all of the players.

 

[Bishopite]

I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Justifications of Abraham

First Justification – Going to a Foreign Land

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” 4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. (Genesis 12:1-4)

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. (Hebrews 11:8-9)

In the book of Hebrews, Paul makes it clear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 since he is specifically commending the true faith of all the OT “heroes” listed. Given the fact that Abraham’s departure from his homeland would have been a “public” event, I’ll grant that this was “before men”.

However, this seems to create a problem for the evangelical position because if Abraham was justified by demonstrating his faith before men back in Genesis 12, how could he also be justified a decade later when he was also justified by faith in Genesis 15:6?

Second Justification – Believing God

5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:1-3)

6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Galatians 3:6)

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:22-24)

Both Paul and James clearly declare that Abraham was justified when he believed God. No men were present to witness the moment when Abraham counted the stars - the event was a private moment between Abraham and God.

Third Justification – Sacrificing Isaac

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:9-12)

Now, my children, show zeal for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of our fathers. Remember the deeds of the fathers, which they did in their generations; and receive great honor and an everlasting name. Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness? (1 Maccabees 2:50-52)

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:20-22)

Abraham was justified (considered righteous) a third time in the sacrifice of Isaac. Again, no men were present to witness the event (unless you want to count Isaac) - the event was a private moment between Abraham and God.

These three moments in the life of Abraham indicate that justification is not a once-for-all event, but a process that occurs throughout the life of the believer.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Linkowski]

Alright - yes, Abraham left his homeland and obeyed the Lord. Good point.

Now, I would again like to make a point.

We are justified by faith - a faith that works…a faith that takes up the cross to the point of even dying for our Lord. This faith begins at the gospel…

Romans 1:16 KJV 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:25 KJV 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Once that faith is born in the elect, they will not fall away…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Mark 13:22 NAS95 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

We are told in Hebrews 3:14 that we HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ is we hold our confidence to the end…endurance is not only a condition for salvation but also an evidence of genuine salvation.

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Jesus said…

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Once this true faith is born in the elect, it will endure…and they will not come into condemnation…they are justified.

John 5:24 NAS95 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Yes - we are tested and found true though life…but once true faith is born, it is done. For those who fell in the wilderness, that was not so…

Hebrews 4:1-2 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

BUT…

Hebrews 4:3 KJV 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

And, again…we are shown as HAVING BEEN justified…

One more point…Peter was chosen and had the prayers of Christ…Judas was not…

John 13:17-19 KJV 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: *but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. *19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

I site scriptures above showing how Jesus prayed for Peter…he was of the elect. Judas was not. Once the elect come to salvation, their faith will continue through any trial. And they ***have been ***justified.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[JoeyWarren]

The only thing one needs FOR WHAT?

One only needs to believe and be saved.

no not really. believing is a is not belief alone but in context with the remainder of what Christ ordered and commanded and directed.

be? it’s more like “will be saved” and “shall be saved” which of course are all contingency phrases and future tense verbs without any guarantee that it will be so…

 

[Bishopite]

What does “dikaioo” mean in the book of Romans??

Romans 8:33-34 NAS95 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who** justifies**; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

This is a legal declaration! This is the context of Romans.

Actually,** a distinction is made in the Greek whether justification is a verb dikaioo, which is an act that IS an ongoing process of being justification (or righteousness) IS a process OR a noun (dikaiosune) which speaks of the state of the individual who has been justified. **
And what Protestants miss is the reality of God being primarily a Father. And although forensic declaritive justification is found in some passages of Scripture, this doesn’t give us the whole picture of who is God and how He justifies, for a Father is ALSO a judge even though He is primarily a Father who has sons and daughters in which we come into the family of God and share in His divine nature.
A Father is a judge over His children but a judge is NOT a Father. That’s why Scripture speaks of justification NOT as imutation only but that we share in His heavenly life as 1 Peter 1:4 “we are partakers of His divine nature” by which we are infused with His righteousness; the Eastern Orthodox call this theosis.
God infuses His life into our soul and doesn’t merely declare us as just but actually makes us just by infusion. When He said “let there be light” there was light; so also when He says your are just, then we are just.
Col 1:22 “he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death**, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him”**

If our sins are merely covered the sin still remains without actually making the person holy.

Isaiah 44:22 “I have brushed away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like a mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you.”

Acts 3:19 "Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away,

Sins can’t be wiped away if they are only covered.

1 Cor 6:11"That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

2 Cor 5:17 “So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.”

If you are merely imputed with Christ’s righteousness your sin still remains no matter how sanctified you become; your sin remains, it’s just covered.

 

[guanophore]

We are justified by faith - a faith that works…a faith that takes up the cross to the point of even dying for our Lord. This faith begins at the gospel…

Faith is a quality or characteristic of human nature. It can be activated by hearing the gospel, but it is something that is within the person, not within the gospel itself. That is why salvation requires work.

Once that faith is born in the elect, they will not fall away…]

If this is true, then why did Jesus have to bother praying for Peter?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

You are bolding it yourself, Link! One has to HOLD FAST! That is work!

We are told in Hebrews 3:14 that we HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ is we hold our confidence to the end…endurance is not only a condition for salvation but also an evidence of genuine salvation.

I am going to assume this is a typo, and not deliberate. Why would we be told IF we HOLD FAST? If there is no possibility of letting go, who needs to be encouraged to hold on?

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Hebrews 4:1-2 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The mixing of faith is the responsibility of the hearer…the good work that God requires for salvation to occur.

 

[teachccd]

That’s very easy to say; please, explain the passage to me, and please, identify all of the players.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 31-- Son of Man – Jesus
angels- spirit beings created by God to be
messengers of God

Verse 32-- All the nations-- humanity
Separate-- to divide
Sheep-- those who tended to Jesus
Goats-- those who did not tend to Jesus

Verse 33-- Sheep-- right side of Jesus
Goats-- left side of Jesus

Verse 34-- Jesus invites the sheep to His’
kingdom.

Verse 35-40 – Jesus describes the sheep

Verse 41-45- Jesus describes the goats

Verse 48-- Destiny of the goats

It’s pretty much face value. Why would anyone want to make different characters out of Jesus, sheep and goats. But apparently there are those who do… God Bless…teachccd

Verse

 

[Randy_Carson]

Alright - yes, Abraham left his homeland and obeyed the Lord. Good point.

Now, I would again like to make a point.

We are justified by faith - a faith that works…a faith that takes up the cross to the point of even dying for our Lord. This faith begins at the gospel…

Romans 1:16 KJV 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:25 KJV 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Once that faith is born in the elect, they will not fall away…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Mark 13:22 NAS95 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

We are told in Hebrews 3:14 that we HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ is we hold our confidence to the end…endurance is not only a condition for salvation but also an evidence of genuine salvation.

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Jesus said…

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Once this true faith is born in the elect, it will endure…and they will not come into condemnation…they are justified.

John 5:24 NAS95 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Yes - we are tested and found true though life…but once true faith is born, it is done. For those who fell in the wilderness, that was not so…

Hebrews 4:1-2 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

BUT…

Hebrews 4:3 KJV 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

And, again…we are shown as HAVING BEEN justified…

One more point…Peter was chosen and had the prayers of Christ…Judas was not…

John 13:17-19 KJV 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: *but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. *19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

I site scriptures above showing how Jesus prayed for Peter…he was of the elect. Judas was not. Once the elect come to salvation, their faith will continue through any trial. And they ***have been ***justified.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Link-

Catholics love these verses as much as you do…but they are not in conflict with what we believe about justification as a process.

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God in Gen 12. And again (further) in Gen 15, and again (further) in Gen 22.

Please don’t bury me with verses…what are you trying to say?

 

[Bishopite]

Link-

Catholics love these verses as much as you do…but they are not in conflict with what we believe about justification as a process.

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God in Gen 12. And again (further) in Gen 15, and again (further) in Gen 22.

Please don’t bury me with verses…what are you trying to say?

Randy,

I’m not really sure why some folks think that quoting mounds of Scripture without an explanation of them somehow bolsters their argument?
I thought the idea of 1 Peter 3:15…(Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope) meant you give a reason not just show that you can quote a plethora of verses.

 

[Bishopite]

Originally Posted by Linkowski

Being born again is specifically mentioned in John 3:5 and Titus 3:5; both mention baptism and regneration as a unitive act of the water and the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:25 KJV 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Once that faith is born in the elect, they will not fall away…

Wrong. Read Paul’s analogy in 1 Cor 9 of running a race which is like the Christian life and how he climaxes the whole chapter with verse 27 where he says “No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”

Paul who earlier in chapter 6 verses 9-11 spoke of those who would be disqualified from heaven for how they acted, also is aware that he could be disqualified from heaven if he didn’t guard himself against serious sin.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Notice how those to whom Paul spoke had “received” what he preached to them, thus showing they accepted his message of the gospel and that they “stand” as just. Then Paul shifts to a conditional statement “if” you hold fast to the word which I preached to you" then qualifies his message “unless you believed in vain” meaning some did believe but didn’t “hold fast” so that what they did believe became vain.

Mark 13:22 NAS95 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

If you are implying that Catholicism is a “false Christ” then in light of the historical evidence of Catholicisms antiquity traced to the Apostles, fending off heresies in the early Church, giving you theological truths i.e, the Trinity, hypostatic union, deciding the canon of Scripture, guarding it through times of war, and most of all keeping to Christian orthodoxy, I wouldn’t use this verse to attempt to do so.

We are told in Hebrews 3:14 that we HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ is we hold our confidence to the end…endurance is not only a condition for salvation but also an evidence of genuine salvation.

So you do agree that endurance is conditional? You must since you just said “endurance is not only a condition for salvation.”
And take a look at what you’ve just quoted “we have become partakers with Christ.” Imputed forensic justification isn’t actually “partaking with Christ” it is being set under since Christ merely covers you. If anything Heb 3:14 show infused justification since we “become patakers with Christ.”

Jesus said…

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Once this true faith is born in the elect, it will endure…and they will not come into condemnation…they are justified.

You just contradicted yourself. How can you say “endurance is a condition for salvation” and yet say the elect WILL endure. God made us FREE with free will to choose even after we have believed to turn our backs on Him, if we so choose.

And, again…we are shown as HAVING BEEN justified…

One more point…Peter was chosen and had the prayers of Christ…Judas was not…

John 13:17-19 KJV 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: *but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. *19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

I site scriptures above showing how Jesus prayed for Peter…he was of the elect. Judas was not. Once the elect come to salvation, their faith will continue through any trial. And they ***have been ***justified.

And so how do you answer Jesus’ command in Mt 16:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.”

Whoever is everyone who has free will which means everyone.

Mt 10:33 “everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.”

Jesus said “whoever denies me” not “only the non-elect can deny me” WHOEVER is everyone not just limited to the elect.

 

[sandusky]

teachccd:

It’s pretty much face value. Why would anyone want to make different characters out of Jesus, sheep and goats. But apparently there are those who do… God Bless…teachccd

It’s not a question of making different characters out of Jesus, the sheep, and the goats; but about identifying the sheep, and goats; we know who Jesus is. Anyway, you didn’t identify the sheep, and goats, and you stayed away from those called “these brothers of mine.”

 

[sandusky]

Bishopite:

Wrong. Read Paul’s analogy in 1 Cor 9 of running a race which is like the Christian life and how he climaxes the whole chapter with verse 27 where he says “No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”

Paul who earlier in chapter 6 verses 9-11 spoke of those who would be disqualified from heaven for how they acted, also is aware that he could be disqualified from heaven if he didn’t guard himself against serious sin.

I think Paul is being humble; certainly he who so clearly expounds election, and works for the sake of the elect, understands by the Lord’s continual revelation to him that he is among the elect; Jesus said His will never perish (Jn 10).

Bishopite:

Notice how those to whom Paul spoke had “received” what he preached to them, thus showing they accepted his message of the gospel and that they “stand” as just. Then Paul shifts to a conditional statement “if” you hold fast to the word which I preached to you" then qualifies his message “unless you believed in vain” meaning some did believe but didn’t “hold fast” so that what they did believe became vain.

Yes, they are identified in the parable of the seed and the sower; and, if they believe in vain, they are not, nor were they ever Christ’s, because His will never perish.

Bishopite:

And take a look at what you’ve just quoted “we have become partakers with Christ.” Imputed forensic justification isn’t actually “partaking with Christ” it is being set under since Christ merely covers you. If anything Heb 3:14 show infused justification since we “become patakers with Christ.”

Forensic justification is not “being set under Christ,” but it is a change of status before God based upon His declaration of “not guilty” concerning the previously guilty sinner.

Bishopite:

If you are implying that Catholicism is a “false Christ” then in light of the historical evidence of Catholicisms antiquity traced to the Apostles, fending off heresies in the early Church, giving you theological truths i.e, the Trinity, hypostatic union, deciding the canon of Scripture, guarding it through times of war, and most of all keeping to Christian orthodoxy, I wouldn’t use this verse to attempt to do so.

I think the point being made is that it is impossible for the elect to be deceived because they are Christ’s, who said of His that they will never perish.

Bishopite:

You just contradicted yourself. How can you say “endurance is a condition for salvation” and yet say the elect WILL endure. God made us FREE with free will to choose even after we have believed to turn our backs on Him, if we so choose.

It is not a contradiction, but a fact; endurance is required for salvation (Mt 10:22), and the elect will endure because Christ says they will never perish (cf Jn 10:28; 1 Pet 1:5 et al).

Bishopite:

And so how do you answer Jesus’ command in Mt 16:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.”

Whoever is everyone who has free will which means everyone.

No; whoever is any ONE who will; everyone is everyone; words have meanings.

Also, Jesus said that no one has the ability to come Him on their own, but that they must be brought to Him by the Father (Jn 6:44). So, “whoever will” is not just anyone, because no one would come on their own, because, as Jesus says, no one can come on their own; they don’t want to.

Bishopite:

Mt 10:33 “everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.”

Jesus said “whoever denies me” not “only the non-elect can deny me” WHOEVER is everyone not just limited to the elect.

By definition, the elect will never deny Christ.

 

[OneForTruth]

I love using this example because of what it shows…

The elect must persevere, we must walk worthy of this calling, yes…but this does not mean that one can lose their salvation. We must persevere and ***we will ***because God has soverignly decreed it from the foundation of the world…I love using this passage here…

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 ***And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. ***23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.