Bridging the "Faith Alone" Divide

[teachccd]

It’s not a question of making different characters out of Jesus, the sheep, and the goats; but about identifying the sheep, and goats; we know who Jesus is. Anyway, you didn’t identify the sheep, and goats, and you stayed away from those called “these brothers of mine.”

The least of my brethren could either indicate those less fortunate and needed the love and care of the followers of Christ or they might be the group of Christians who were persecuted for promulgating the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The sheep and goats are two groups that the shepherd, Jesus, judged on their deeds towards Himself by showing their compassion or lack thereof.

Maybe you could shed a little insight. Is there a hidden meaning here?? Aside from a distinct understanding of who the least of Christ’s brethren represent it is obvious that the conduct towards those people was judged and their eternity determined.

God Bless…teachccd

 

[sandusky]

teachccd:

The least of my brethren could either indicate those less fortunate and needed the love and care of the followers of Christ or they might be the group of Christians who were persecuted for promulgating the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Well, they are definitely “believers,” and not just humanity in general, as humanity in general are not Jesus’ “brethren” (cf Mt 12:49; Mk 3:3; with Eph 1:5).

teachccd:

The sheep and goats are two groups that the shepherd, Jesus, judged on their deeds towards Himself by showing their compassion or lack thereof.

This is the only time in the NT that a segment of humankind is referred to as “goats,” but it is not the only time that a segment of humankind is referred to as “sheep.” For the most part, those referred to as sheep, belong to Christ.

teachccd:

Maybe you could shed a little insight. Is there a hidden meaning here?? Aside from a distinct understanding of who the least of Christ’s brethren represent it is obvious that the conduct towards those people was judged and their eternity determined.

There is nothing hidden, it’s all right in the verses.

Before any mention of any deeds, those who are called sheep, and separated to the right, are said to be those who have been “*blessed *{eulogāmenoi} of my Father,” a perfect, passive, participle; the same construction of that used of Mary in Lk 1:28—kekaritōmene—blessed [with continuous ongoing results] with the inheritance of a kingdom “prepared for you from the foundation of the world (v34),” a kingdom for which the sheep are prepared from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4).

That is the primary, determining factor of their eternity; the works they did are secondary, and would never have occurred had they not been chosen in Him [Christ] (cf Eph 1:4; with Eph 2:10).

 

[Bishopite]

I think Paul is being humble; certainly he who so clearly expounds election, and works for the sake of the elect, understands by the Lord’s continual revelation to him that he is among the elect; Jesus said His will never perish

(Jn 10).

No Jesus didn’t say in John 10 to Paul personally that he would never deny Him. Come now, that’s a stretch. John 10 is about Jesus saying He knows His sheep; the problem is that His sheep haven’t yet made it to the end can fall away by a free choice to NOT take up their cross and follow Him any longer.

Yes, they are identified in the parable of the seed and the sower; and, if they believe in vain, they are not, nor were they ever Christ’s, because His will never perish.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I
By definition, the elect will never deny Christ.

So your indirectly saying that Peter was never among the “elect”?

You gave no exceptions. Explain this contradiction.

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

So your indirectly saying that Peter was never among the “elect”?

You gave no exceptions. Explain this contradiction.

Give a bit more thought to your question with respect to endurance, Sean, and I am certain that you will answer this question yourself, and you will conclude that there is no contradiction.

 

[mikeledes]

The elect can never perish. God has ordained that the elect will be saved and this will infallibly happen. God will ensure that the elect will be given the gift of final perseverance (i.e. dying in a state of grace).

My question is what does perseverance of the saints mean? What is perseverance?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God in the scriptures said “I am”.

God is continual. To be like Him we must be continual.

Salvation for that reason can never be soley instantaneous.

Continuning faith which saves is not instanteous.

It is a grace given by God but at any point God will allow us to raise an impediment to His grace and committ mortal sin.

If we choose to not raise an impediment to the Continual 'I am" God and His Continual grace then He does everything and saves us.

That’s why justification can never be instanteous because God is not instanteous.

 

[sandusky]

Bishopite:

No Jesus didn’t say in John 10 to Paul personally that he would never deny Him. Come now, that’s a stretch. John 10 is about Jesus saying He knows His sheep; the problem is that His sheep haven’t yet made it to the end can fall away by a free choice to NOT take up their cross and follow Him any longer.

Jesus says, comprehensively, that no one can take them from Him, or from the Father, and, in John 6, He says that the will of the Father is that He should lose none of those given to Him by the Father, but resurrect them on the last day.

You’re right, Jesus didn’t say that to Paul personally, but to assert that Paul was unsure of his salvation is akin to asserting that there isn’t a nose on your face.

Bishopite:

You are assuming you know a persons heart; that is that they didn’t actually believe and trust in Christ. This is a false assumption from which is reserved to God alone, sola theos.

You’re spinning what I said, as indicated by your statement:

Notice how those to whom Paul spoke had “received” what he preached to them, thus showing they accepted his message of the gospel and that they “stand” as just. Then Paul shifts to a conditional statement “if” you hold fast to the word which I preached to you" then qualifies his message “unless you believed in vain” meaning some did believe but didn’t “hold fast” so that what they did believe became vain.

If there is any “false assuming” going on, it’s being done by you. The elect never believe in vain; that is the clear statement of God.

Bishopite:

A merely declarative statement isn’t actually making one holy, a mere covering alone without changing the person inside still allows the sin to remain, it’s just hiddenThis is your sin but it remains so you aren’t actually made holy but only have the affectations of being made holy.

Correct. Forensic justification is a change of “status.” It is a “positional righteousness” that the believer possesses in Christ (cf 2 Cor 5:21). One is also completely sanctified in the strict sense of the word sanctification, hagiadzō]—set apart. Sin still plays a part in the believer’s life, he is not free from it, because of the corruption of the world, and the flesh (his will) (cf Rom 7:14-20; 21-25; with Gal 5:17). Practical sanctification occurs from the time of re-birth, until death. It is the working-out of possessed salvation, and it is spoken of in Php 2:12, and directed by God in Php 2:13, and which Paul is confident in God that He will complete Php 1:6; so that the believer can be confident that though he doesn’t have the experience of sinlessness now, he will one day (cf 1 Jn 3:2).

Bishopite:

1 Cor 3:19-20 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.”

I have no idea why you are citing that verse?

Bishopite:

Mt 24:4 “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you(or spirit being for that matter).”
So…Jesus was only speaking to the non elect here?

Jesus was speaking to whom He was speaking; I’m sure the audience contained both elect, and non-elect individuals; God uses admonition, sometimes strong admonition, to exhort, and encourage his people—they are still dealing with the flesh, and need to be diligent, and discerning.

Bishopite:

Sure the elect won’t perish, the problem you don’t address is that the “elect” can fall away from grace Gal 5:4, nor that those who are of the elect once knowing the truth now by their own free will choose to disobey God.

Contextually, Gal 5:4 says that those who insist on keeping the law for salvation have fallen from grace.Galatians 5:4

…you who are seeking to be justified by law…have fallen from grace.I don’t seek to be justified by law, but by the God who justifies (cf Rom 8:33).

Bishopite:

So now endurance is required? I thought a gift didn’t “require” anything?

Endurance has always been required. We live fluid lives, not static lives. Endurance is part of the gift; that’s why Christ says His will never perish.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(cont. from post #77)

Bishopite:

But notice in Mt 10:22, Jesus said “if” you endure to the end NOT since you will endure to the end.

I don’t know what translation you are citing, but there is no “if” in the Greek. The one who endures is saved.

Bishopite:

Wrong. Whoever is any person who wills to follow.

No one “wills” to follow; that is why they must be chosen by God (Jn 1:13; 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:4ff, 1 Pet 1:3; Jas 1:17-18), and then drawn by the Father (Jn 6:44). Even the disciples didn’t like that teaching, and Christ says that is why they walked away (Jn 6:65-66).

Bishopite:

God gives everyone sufficient grace to follow Him or follow what they know of Him as Romans 1:19-20 points out.

There is no mention of grace given in that passage, but it is knowledge that is given; and, that knowledge is sufficient to condemn the unbelieving; that is the point of the passage.

Bishopite:

By your definition you are assuming the elect know the future and that they won’t commit and fall into grave sin, which leads to death, 1 John 5

The elect do know the future; it is stated in various places, not only Jn 10.

Furthermore, you don’t have a clue what sin John is talking about in 1 Jn 5, neither do you know what kind of death he is talking about, because he doesn’t say.

 

[mikeledes]

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (NASB)

**18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. **

(KJV)

**18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. **

Matthew 19:16-17

**16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” **

Luke 10:25-28

**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”

27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **

Jesus gives a very un-Protestant reponse to these questions regarding eternal life.

God bless,
Michael

 

[teachccd]

That is the primary, determining factor of their eternity; the works they did are secondary, and would never have occurred had they not been chosen in Him [Christ] (cf Eph 1:4; with Eph 2:10).

Then explain to me why Jews, Muslems, New Agers, and agnostics and even atheists perform these works or as I call them acts of love?? I personally know an atheist who just about covered all of the deeds in Matthew 25. Now he has no faith in Christ so those works won’t “earn” him heaven but none the less they came from somewhere. What causes this, Sandusky?? And if you have faith and no works, can an empty faith save you?? Please address both questions if you would. God Bless…teachccd

 

[guanophore]

God uses admonition, sometimes ***strong*** admonition, to exhort, and encourage his people—they are still dealing with the flesh, and need to be diligent, and discerning.

Originally Posted by Bishopite
Sure the elect won’t perish, the problem you don’t address is that the “elect” can fall away from grace Gal 5:4, nor that those who are of the elect once knowing the truth now by their own free will choose to disobey God.

Contextually, Gal 5:4 says that those who insist on keeping the law for salvation have fallen from grace.Galatians 5:4

…you who are seeking to be justified by law…have fallen from grace.I don’t seek to be justified by law, but by the God who justifies (cf Rom 8:33).

Yes. The point is that they were saved by grace, through fatih, then fell from grace. This is a reference to a phenomenon you say cannot occur.

 

[Bishopite]

Jesus says, comprehensively, that no one can take them from Him, or from the Father, and, in John 6, He says that the will of the Father is that He should lose none of those given to Him by the Father, but resurrect them on the last day.

Actually I’m glad you brought up John 6. John 6:2 says that many followed Jesus because of his many healings. So some believed at this point even though some perhaps were only skeptical of Him.
John 6:65 Jesus because He IS God knows who is and isn’t the elect.
However, John 6:66 The people who have free will DON’T know their own destiny and could have chosen to follow along with the disciples or did that it say they did, leave and turn away.
Again, Jesus knows our future but we don’t for we CAN fall away from Him.

You’re right, Jesus didn’t say that to Paul personally, but to assert that Paul was unsure of his salvation is akin to asserting that there isn’t a nose on your face.

 

[Bishopite]

]

Originally Posted by Bishopite

But notice in Mt 10:22, Jesus said “if” you endure to the end NOT since you will endure to the end.

I don’t know what translation you are citing, but there is no “if” in the Greek. The one who endures is saved.

You are correct it doesn’t say “if”, I stand corrected, however Jesus does say the “You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved”
Again, whoever is everyone. Mt 10:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishopite

Wrong. Whoever is any person who wills to follow.

No one “wills” to follow; that is why they must be chosen by God (Jn 1:13; 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:4ff, 1 Pet 1:3; Jas 1:17-18), and then drawn by the Father (Jn 6:44). Even the disciples didn’t like that teaching, and Christ says that is why they walked away (Jn 6:65-66).

You obviously adhere to the false teaching of total depravity. Adam and Eve’s will was darkened by the fall NOT totally depraved. And you have no will to follow? God gives everyone will and everyone has the gospel written on their heart so that they can freely follow Him. God created us free otherwise we wouldn’t truly be human. Romans 2:15-16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishopite

God gives everyone sufficient grace to follow Him or follow what they know of Him as Romans 1:19-20 points out.

There is no mention of grace given in that passage, but it is knowledge that is given; and, that knowledge is sufficient to condemn the unbelieving; that is the point of the passage.

The gospel is written on everyones heart Romans 2:15-16. The gospel IS grace, is it not?

Originally Posted by Bishopite

By your definition you are assuming the elect know the future and that they won’t commit and fall into grave sin, which leads to death, 1 John 5

The elect do know the future; it is stated in various places, not only Jn 10.

You know with infallible certitude that you won’t fornicate become an adulterer or murderer in the future? Take head lest ye fall.

Furthermore, you don’t have a clue what sin John is talking about in 1 Jn 5, neither do you know what kind of death he is talking about, because he doesn’t say.

Obviously John is speaking of a “sin that leads to death” and I have a clue for history proves that Jesus established an authoritative Church that tells me what is sin 1Tim 3:15, Mt 18-:18 and that this IS speaking of a mortal sin.
And how do YOU know the context? That’s the real question.

 

[Bishopite]

Sandusky
Endurance has always been required. We live fluid lives, not static lives. Endurance is part of the gift; that’s why Christ says His will never perish.

But I thought there weren’t any requirements for salvation since we are justified by sola fide which doesn’t demand them, does it?

Again, Jesus said in Mt 10:22 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved”
This is from the NIV. Again, Jesus is making a statement with a condition attached to it; that is a presupposed IF by saying “he who stands firm to the end” which means you must stand firm not that you will stand firm to the end.

Also, if endurance is part of the gift, aren’t works done by faith also part of God’s gift?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Give a bit more thought to your question with respect to endurance, Sean, and I am certain that you will answer this question yourself, and you will conclude that there is no contradiction.

No there is no contradiction from my point of view. Makes perfect sense. You statement seems to indicate that you agree at least in some form with that of The Church. I’m just trying have you look at your post/beliefs to realize that.

The contradiction lies in your opinions that you seem to be expressing as a “faith alone” theology. I can’t answer to the contradictions in your theology, because it is just that, your theology.

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Man’s best literary genius (Pope’s Encyclicals, etc.) will only be dogmatic, at best. :yup:

The writers of The Sacred Scriptures (The Bible) on the other hand, were truly inspirerd, and not dogmatic.

:bible1:
Douay-Rheims Bible
2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

King James Bible
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Douay-Rheims Bible
2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in those things which thou hast learned and which have been committed to thee. Knowing of whom thou hast learned them: 15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures which can instruct thee to salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

King James Bible
2 Timoty 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Douay-Rheims Bible
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever: 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.
John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

King James Bible
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
1 John 2:27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.

King James Bible
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Let the Scriptures come first in your lives. :bowdown2:

 

[JoeyWarren]

Let the Scriptures come first in your lives. :bowdown2:

:bigyikes: A Christian never let the Documents(Scripture) of the Bible come first. We as Catholics, the first and true Christians let Jesus come first.:bowdown2: Sounds like you are idolizing the Bible…

 

[Church_Militant]

Man’s best literary genius (Pope’s Encyclicals, etc.) will only be dogmatic, at best.

Much the same way as Jack Chick, C.I. Scofield, and other n-C scholars are then, right?

The writers of The Sacred Scriptures (The Bible) on the other hand, were truly inspirerd, and not dogmatic.

Yet you and many n-Cs offer a wide variety of differing dogmas concerning a myriad of aspects of the Christian faith, and yet claim that all of it is biblical truth.

Let the Scriptures come first in your lives.

Is there some scriptural support for this? Where does the Word of God say that it is to “come first in your lives”? Wouldn’t this actually be something like “scripturolatry” (if that is even a word…)?

Furthermore, how does this post relate to the topic of this thread which is 'Bridging the “Faith Alone” Divide"?

 

[Tah_Dah_Man]

Yes, let Jesus dwell in our hearts by faith - that should come first.
(Ephesians 3 and Colossians 3.)

And we can examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5.
“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!
Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?”

My conviction is that when we read a persons theological views, we should see if they are consistent with the Scriptures.

Everybody can be dogmatic, even pragmatic in over-emphasizing some things.

-Another good reason to compare what anyone says - with the Bible.
(Some think that they are above this.)