Bring guns to church?

[The_Wizard]

You can put up a legitimate defense without a gun, it is true. You’ll just lose the fight. If two people are unarmed, whoever is stronger will win. Martial arts and self-defense classes are irrelevant, that is why every sport has weight classes, and these people neglect to mention that martial arts competitions have rules. You won’t see a kick to the groin, gouging of the eyes, etc. A man with a knife will win against a man without a knife. A man will generally prevail against a woman. A young adult will beat an elderly person. That is just how nature is. The only way to win in a fight is for one person to have an advantage over the other. The gun is the great equalizer. A 5’ tall female with a gun actually stands a chance against a 6’ tall rapist. In a place like Britain, Sweden, Australia, or whatever other leftist society that champions everything the Church stands against, that young girl has no chance. The police, and I know this from law enforcement experience, cannot be everywhere at once. Even in a dictatorship like China or North Korea, there is crime. North Korea, even without considering state-sponsored mass murder, has a murder rate of triple the United States. Guns are completely illegal for private ownership there, and you stand a good chance of being sent to prison for LIFE if you violate this.

Speaking of China, until recently, the police were generally unarmed, like Britain. The Public Security Bureau is charged with traditional police duties, such as patrol and responding to calls for service. The People’s Armed Police is more of a paramilitary force that responds to riots and terrorist incidents, while also guarding government buildings. Well, a couple years back, there was a murder in an apartment. The man killed two of his neighbors with a shotgun. The unarmed police responded, and after they breached the door, the man killed four of them with his shotgun. It wasn’t until after the Kunming terrorist attacks that the government, due to pressure from the police officers themselves, finally armed their regular police, albeit with ****** Norinco 9mm revolvers. The murderer did not have a license to own a firearm, which actually does exist in China (and doubles as a carry permit), but is exceptionally rare except in the countryside and frontier where hunting is more common. Gun laws do nothing to deter crime in China, where the law is very strict. In fact, the only thing that deters crime there is the fact that capital punishment and life in prison are common sentences for murder, rape, terrorism, and political corruption.

Some have touched on the concept of murder being a grave sin. Not to take away from that, but the Bible also says that we should not stand idly while our neighbor is in danger. It says this in the Old Testament…if we throw that away, then we also throw away every prophecy of the Messiah, the Ten Commandments, and even Creation itself. Jewish tradition holds that our neighbor is anyone in need. I have heard Catholics say that we have a responsibility to care for everyone, because we are all from Adam and Eve. So, when you are faced with the situation of choosing one person or another, such as yourself vs a robber, a girl vs a rapist, your neighbor vs someone trying to kill him…you can only save one. It could be yourself, your wife, your child, or a stranger.

A lot of stupid things can be done with a gun, just like a first aid kit. Misuse of a tourniquet can mean losing a limb, or worse. If you don’t want to keep a first aid kid in your car, that’s fine, but I choose to. I have saved a life with it.

 

[Brendan]

This is irrelevant because no other western country permits you to own a gun to kill an aggressor as part of peace time society and yet we all still abide the words to their fullest. You are interpreting ‘legitimate defense’ to mean ‘a gun’ when many other countries have categorically shown that ‘legitimate defense’ can be achieved without a huge death rate.

Longing, since you are back in this thread, why don’t post the results of your conversation with your local police.

Tell us how they feel about a police officer having an INTENT to kill when he\she draws their firearm?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13155247&postcount=461

 

[LongingSoul]

Longing, since you are back in this thread, why don’t post the results of your conversation with your local police.

Tell us how they feel about a police officer having an INTENT to kill when he\she draws their firearm?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13155247&postcount=461

police.qld.gov.au/forms/contact.asp

Go to the general enquiries section at the bottom and you can find out for yourself. Tell them your agenda as a fundamentalist pro-gun ownership for private self defense American so that the reply reflects the general Australian attitude to your query.

 

[Brendan]

police.qld.gov.au/forms/contact.asp

Go to the general enquiries section at the bottom and you can find out for yourself. Tell them your agenda as a fundamentalist pro-gun ownership for private self defense American so that the reply reflects the general Australian attitude to your query.

OK, I’ll ask the following question then

“I am in a discussion with an Australian, and this person is under the impression that when Australian police draw their firearm in response to a criminal incident, that the police officer is trained to intent to kill. My thoughts would be that the intent is to stop the crime. Could you provide an resources or links in regards to police training in this matter.”

I’ll post the response when it arrives.

 

[Brendan]

Here is the response

There are no available web resources or otherwise for Police training in relation to this matter, however with respect to firearm use police are trained to stop the threat in the most appropriate manner for the situation.

My response back

“So if the situation entails the attacker ceasing the attack and submits, there is no intent to kill”

Yes, that is correct. That would be the appropriate solution

In other words, exactly the same was what is taught in the Concealed Carry classes here, and what I instructed my Troops on when I was an Officer.

 

[Faithdancer]

Some states want elementary school teachers to carry guns; fear of incidents like Sandy Hill & Columbine. There are companies that teach teachers to take the offense when under attack by a crazy person. Uh, I confess there were probably several teAchers who would be tempted to shoot me while I was in school. What sad times we face due to a decline in morals.

I"ve gone through some of that offensive training. I don’t have a concealed carry permit but it’s on my agenda. No reason anyone in church ever has to know someone else who is law abiding and has a permit is carrying. And if my employers (school districts) wanted teachers to carry, I would volunteer, to protect the children.

 

[Theo520]

The facts don’t really support your position. The shooter almost always takes their own life as soon as they are confronted by someone with a gun.

You shouldn’t be so defeatist about protecting your own life.

And a 22 pistol can be just a lethal as a hunting caliber, you don’t need 30 rounds for one target.

I believe the idea that if only more ‘good guys’ carried firearms we wouldn’t have shooting massacres (as the ‘good guy’ can be there to shoot the ‘bad guy’) is fallacious; because the ‘bad guy’ always has the upper hand, as before you even know what’s happening, the bad guy has in the far majority of cases already got you.

Please legitimately consider this, if your in a crowded mall and you hear what ‘might’ be gun shots, by the time you assess who the shooter is (considering you have ruled out cap guns, blanks, a joke etc) and whether he needs to be taken out, chances are, he has already hit you, unless you were in a fortunate position to begin with.

Not to mention, that your standard little hand guns (M9, Glock etc) are no match at all for your standard Assault rifles, especially kitted out with magazines of 30 rounds or more.

Take for example the recent shooting massacre in that Church, the kid was there assessing his surroundings and planning before he opened fire, if the priest or one of the members were ‘carrying’ he simply would have shot them first, or waited another day to carry out his plan, only takes about 2 seconds to hit the majority of people in such surroundings, you think you could do all of that assessing I mentioned above in the mall scenario and combat this guy at the back of the church who you can’t see and don’t have a clear shot, all in a couple of seconds? You might be good, but none are that good.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh