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cradlecatholic5
Guest
I know several divorced/remarried Catholics (outside of the Church) receive Holy Communion.
I feel it’s their business.
I feel it’s their business.
- Status
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TrueLight
Guest
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ExGratia
Guest
My husband and I both were away from the Church for a time before we met and came back and knew we owe obedience to the Church as founded by Christ. We both have said that we would have never married if we hadn’t found someone who also agrees that a Sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved.
It is a privilege to belong to the only Church(that I know of) that doesn’t allow divorce and remarriage. We are surrounded by so many influences that weaken the meaning of marriage (gay marriage, shacking up, premarital sex, in vitro fertilization, rampant divorce) that it is comforting to have a constant in teaching.
Repentance can be hard. I know from experience. Usually you have to give up a lot. But what you gain from a true relationship with Christ does not compare to anything of this world.
By the way, those of you who say “Not everyone is called to a life of celibacy”, well, of course not!! But if you are not truly married or cannot have sex with your spouse for whatever reason, then for the time being you are called to celibacy. We make a covenant to marry for life, which means that even in the case of paralysis or abandonment or madness, we cannot go find a new spouse. Because God does not change and he is one of the three parties in our covenant.
The people who are defending marriage are not attacking the divorced. Repentance is available for everyone. A right relationship with God is what matters, and you cannot have that if you are intentionally flouting the rules of the Church. We are all sinners, and we promise to amend our lives when we make a good Confession. Those who stand up for marriage are showing true love and charity to their neighbors, since salvation is ultimately what matters.
It is a privilege to belong to the only Church(that I know of) that doesn’t allow divorce and remarriage. We are surrounded by so many influences that weaken the meaning of marriage (gay marriage, shacking up, premarital sex, in vitro fertilization, rampant divorce) that it is comforting to have a constant in teaching.
Repentance can be hard. I know from experience. Usually you have to give up a lot. But what you gain from a true relationship with Christ does not compare to anything of this world.
By the way, those of you who say “Not everyone is called to a life of celibacy”, well, of course not!! But if you are not truly married or cannot have sex with your spouse for whatever reason, then for the time being you are called to celibacy. We make a covenant to marry for life, which means that even in the case of paralysis or abandonment or madness, we cannot go find a new spouse. Because God does not change and he is one of the three parties in our covenant.
The people who are defending marriage are not attacking the divorced. Repentance is available for everyone. A right relationship with God is what matters, and you cannot have that if you are intentionally flouting the rules of the Church. We are all sinners, and we promise to amend our lives when we make a good Confession. Those who stand up for marriage are showing true love and charity to their neighbors, since salvation is ultimately what matters.
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skeyes
Guest
I am experiencing quite a few emotions as I read this thread. Ultimately, the church’s teachings concerning divorce are that one should not remarry unless an annulment has been granted. It is not a “Catholic Divorce”. The annulment investigation is very thorough and determines if there was a marriage in the first place. If there was never a marriage, easy example would be a prenuptial agreement, then an annulment is granted.
Saying things about falling in love just makes it seem that we humans are incapable of controlling our emotions and our very lives. We should never allow ourselves to “fall in love” to the detriment of our souls for all eternity. The church teachings are what they are. When we choose to break those teachings, it is not our right to expect the church to have to allow us to do what we have been taught not to do.
I pray that we will all realize that it us that need to change.
Stan
Saying things about falling in love just makes it seem that we humans are incapable of controlling our emotions and our very lives. We should never allow ourselves to “fall in love” to the detriment of our souls for all eternity. The church teachings are what they are. When we choose to break those teachings, it is not our right to expect the church to have to allow us to do what we have been taught not to do.
I pray that we will all realize that it us that need to change.
Stan
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Cider
Guest
They need to be in a state of grace to receive just like anyone else. The Church has provided ways for that happen already. That is not the issue. The problem is people want to change the churches teaching on marriage.You might want to know that our Pope is actually pondering about the matter of divorced/remaried Catholics. He is taking everything in consideration and didn’t make a decision yet…therefore he might end up agreeing with the plea to let divorced/remarried Catholics receive the Eucharist…
I hope you won’t be too disappointed when this happens and that you will find out that Mercy is the way to go
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fastenatingguy
Guest
Hallelujah16,
I understand your thread and empathize with your concerns. I admire your compassion and love for your family and friends. Being there when they needed you is fundamental to following God: love thy neighbor. What a beautiful gift.
I find myself in a unique predicament. My wife and I live under the same roof, but lead completely separate lives. I hurt her terribly over twelve years ago and she has not found it in her heart to forgive me. She typically ignores me (except regarding bills) and when she does say something, it is often cruel or disparaging. This is not an easy situation to be in, and I handle it as well as I can, with God’s grace. Often I’m just “numb” to the situation (kind of a typical male response, I know) and try to do my best as a father to our children.
But as much as I seek that we reunite, and as much as leading a celibate lifestyle is NOT something I want, I have decided to accept this as temporary (I know, twelve years on earth ain’t temporary). Divorce is something that I can’t help but think about (I’m human), but do not ever consider. I hope and pray that is God’s strength and grace in me, and that He has a plan to truly reunite us before we die.
I accept and understand that divorce (and remarriage) would be in violation of the Sacrament, a (mortal) sin, that would separate me not only from my wife, but also from God and the Eucharist. Technically it’s not the legal divorce that is against the Church’s teaching, it’s the remarriage without nullity. And the further temptation after divorce-- to seek out a new spouse-- would just be a real occasion of sin. So it only complicates matters even more than they already are. I don’t want that! I think that is part of the issue of all humans who don’t want to be or live alone, so they compromise, but they forget about God! But I don’t think that is what God wants or intended. As others have pointed out, Sacramental marriage is a contract among the husband, wife, and God. Keep it that way.
So I guess my point is that we have to take marriage as a sacrament with the seriousness that the Church (the same one that our Lord founded on Peter) does. If we do that and do everything possible to save our marriage (even one that is “on hold”), imagine how happy God can make us. And we can have the eternity of salvation which is what we truly seek.
I know, not easy. But worth trying for no other reason to satisfy God, since He wants us all to be happy.
FG
I understand your thread and empathize with your concerns. I admire your compassion and love for your family and friends. Being there when they needed you is fundamental to following God: love thy neighbor. What a beautiful gift.
I find myself in a unique predicament. My wife and I live under the same roof, but lead completely separate lives. I hurt her terribly over twelve years ago and she has not found it in her heart to forgive me. She typically ignores me (except regarding bills) and when she does say something, it is often cruel or disparaging. This is not an easy situation to be in, and I handle it as well as I can, with God’s grace. Often I’m just “numb” to the situation (kind of a typical male response, I know) and try to do my best as a father to our children.
But as much as I seek that we reunite, and as much as leading a celibate lifestyle is NOT something I want, I have decided to accept this as temporary (I know, twelve years on earth ain’t temporary). Divorce is something that I can’t help but think about (I’m human), but do not ever consider. I hope and pray that is God’s strength and grace in me, and that He has a plan to truly reunite us before we die.
I accept and understand that divorce (and remarriage) would be in violation of the Sacrament, a (mortal) sin, that would separate me not only from my wife, but also from God and the Eucharist. Technically it’s not the legal divorce that is against the Church’s teaching, it’s the remarriage without nullity. And the further temptation after divorce-- to seek out a new spouse-- would just be a real occasion of sin. So it only complicates matters even more than they already are. I don’t want that! I think that is part of the issue of all humans who don’t want to be or live alone, so they compromise, but they forget about God! But I don’t think that is what God wants or intended. As others have pointed out, Sacramental marriage is a contract among the husband, wife, and God. Keep it that way.
So I guess my point is that we have to take marriage as a sacrament with the seriousness that the Church (the same one that our Lord founded on Peter) does. If we do that and do everything possible to save our marriage (even one that is “on hold”), imagine how happy God can make us. And we can have the eternity of salvation which is what we truly seek.
I know, not easy. But worth trying for no other reason to satisfy God, since He wants us all to be happy.
FG
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number2wilkins
Guest
My wife and i are waiting for RCIA to begin and have both entered the annulment process for prior marriages…
we have come to understand the Church’s teaching on marriage / divorce during the 4 months we’ve been attending Mass, and needless to say, it’s nothing we knew growing up! i am baptized and have been attending some sort of protestant church for large portions of my life, but divorce was always so common and available, even for one of my pastors!, that it was really no big deal… my wife has never attended church and hasn’t yet been baptized…in my experience, divorce was always just another sin that could be repented of and forgiven, and life goes on…
it’s tough for us, now, to feel like we are being held to a standard we didn’t know existed when we made decisions regarding our first marriages…
i am in no way disparaging the Church’s teaching on marriage / divorce… i’m just saying it’s very difficult, at times, to realize we two, poor, miserable sinners, may never be received into full communion with the Catholic Church based on sins committed when we didn’t know any better…
i would appreciate your prayers in this regard, that we will accept God’s will, whichever way our annulments go…
and just remember, it’s really tough for those of us in this situation… it’s so easy to feel alienated and disconnected from the life of the Church…
we have come to understand the Church’s teaching on marriage / divorce during the 4 months we’ve been attending Mass, and needless to say, it’s nothing we knew growing up! i am baptized and have been attending some sort of protestant church for large portions of my life, but divorce was always so common and available, even for one of my pastors!, that it was really no big deal… my wife has never attended church and hasn’t yet been baptized…in my experience, divorce was always just another sin that could be repented of and forgiven, and life goes on…
it’s tough for us, now, to feel like we are being held to a standard we didn’t know existed when we made decisions regarding our first marriages…
i am in no way disparaging the Church’s teaching on marriage / divorce… i’m just saying it’s very difficult, at times, to realize we two, poor, miserable sinners, may never be received into full communion with the Catholic Church based on sins committed when we didn’t know any better…
i would appreciate your prayers in this regard, that we will accept God’s will, whichever way our annulments go…
and just remember, it’s really tough for those of us in this situation… it’s so easy to feel alienated and disconnected from the life of the Church…
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Sillara
Guest
I think that much of this sympathy for divorced and remarried Catholics is misplaced and unhelpful.
After all, it might seem unsympathetic and mean-spirited to deny the diabetic a slice of birthday cake or to require he take daily insulin injections–but the other option is to be party to his illness and death.
It might seem unsympathetic and mean-spirited to deny the divorced and remarried the ability to return to the Eucharist and the Church WITHOUT stopping their sin of adultery–but the other option is to be party to their damnation.
It is possible for any divorced and remarried person to return, so long as he or she is willing to stop the sin of adultery.
Hallelujah and others on this thread have been advocating for “saying sorry” rather than stopping the sin. That is not the same thing. The Church already accepts them back, provided they repent, which means TURNING AWAY from their sin, that is, not doing it anymore.
Our Lord said that anyone who loved his husband, wife, father, mother, son, or daughter more than he loved the Lord was not worthy of Him.
We are not higher than Our Lord, and we cannot change His words.
After all, it might seem unsympathetic and mean-spirited to deny the diabetic a slice of birthday cake or to require he take daily insulin injections–but the other option is to be party to his illness and death.
It might seem unsympathetic and mean-spirited to deny the divorced and remarried the ability to return to the Eucharist and the Church WITHOUT stopping their sin of adultery–but the other option is to be party to their damnation.
It is possible for any divorced and remarried person to return, so long as he or she is willing to stop the sin of adultery.
Hallelujah and others on this thread have been advocating for “saying sorry” rather than stopping the sin. That is not the same thing. The Church already accepts them back, provided they repent, which means TURNING AWAY from their sin, that is, not doing it anymore.
Our Lord said that anyone who loved his husband, wife, father, mother, son, or daughter more than he loved the Lord was not worthy of Him.
We are not higher than Our Lord, and we cannot change His words.
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TimothyH
Guest
God values each of us infinitely and no peson is ever beyond redemption.
Catholicism is not the Marine Corps where weaklings are weeded out.
-Tim-
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Corki
Guest
Absolutely agree.
In some ways Christianity IS like the Marines. Those who are weak will not perservere to the end, as St. Paul said. Of course, we all fail. But when we do, we have to get up and continue the journey.
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TrueLight
Guest
I will keep you in prayer my brother.
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TrueLight
Guest
You didn’t answer my question. Oh well.
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TrueLight
Guest
Yes.
2 Timothy 4: 7
It ain’t easy for any of us. We all have our struggles. We all fall and rise again. During my moments of weakness, I want my brother or sister to let me cry on his or her shoulder and then tell me unabashedly what Catholic teaching is. It doesn’t mean they are not compassionate towards me. In fact, telling me the truth, is to show me love.
I like the diabetic analogy.
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TimothyH
Guest
The Catholic Church will not change teaching on divorce.
One man, one woman, forever, with the inner workings of the Trinity as it’s model. A concession has been made with regards to secular law for ending the civil marriage contract when the safety or salvation of one or both spouses or the children is in grave danger. There is no such thing as a second marriage - you either reconcile with your spouse or remain celibate and single for the rest of your life - those are your only two options.
That will not change. It cannot change because it is revealed truth.
Honestly, I didn’t think I had to answer the question. You know my situation. I am divorce in civil court and my marriage has been anulled - according to the authority which Christ gave the Holy Catholic Church, my marriage never happened. I am completely free to date and remarry, yet I plan to live my life as a single celibate in honor of the promise I made, and an trying to give my life to God with an “Undivided heart” not only on a dialy basis, but formally through the sacrament of Holy Orders. I didn’t think I had to answer.
But there is no reason why we can’t love those who have made a mistake but are now stuck, especially those who have children! What are they supposed to do - tear a mother and father away from their children and raise the children in a broken home? Or do they throw themselves on God’s mercy, recognize their sin, and stay together for the sake of raising the children in a wholesome environment with a mother and father?
To be clear, I am not talking about those who know better yet snub their nose at Catholic teaching, but those who made an honest mistake, got remarried out of ignorance, and now are stuck.
Do we invite them to our barbeques, join a carpool with them, and pray for them as they sit in the pew while we recieve the Eucharist. How their heart must break watching all of us recieve! That is what the Holy Father has been talking about.
I don’t know anything about people in Australia recieving communion. I’ve got enough trouble of my own.
-Tim-
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TrueLight
Guest
I’m sorry, but I have to cut to the heart of the question.
By “love”, do you mean that they should be allowed to receive communion?
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Sillara
Guest
Catholicism is where the weak are made strong in Christ, as St. Paul mentions.
We are not allowed to use weakness as an excuse. The Christian life is hard, but Our Lord will help us to do what is right, not necessarily what we want to do.
Our Lord said many hard things, including the words about loving Him more than our husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters, and the lines about putting our hands to the plow and then turning back.
If we do so, we are not worthy of Him.
Our Lord requires absolute obedience.
All but one of his original apostles died a martyr’s death.
We are to be ready to bear witness to Our Lord and His love even to the point of death–or to the point of never marrying again if our marriage falls apart. To the point of separation from, or if children are involved, of celibate living with, an adulterous “spouse”.
When we sin, we nail Our Lord back to the Cross. Would you nail someone’s flesh to a tree and then ask to partake of that same flesh–all while planning to go back to the nailing immediately thereafter?
Our Lord offers to us Himself, offers the very flesh we have violated as the bread of our life. He asks only that we turn away from continuing to violate it.
Can we really say that it is all right to receive the greatest gift possible – the Body, Blood, Flesh, and Divinity of Our Lord – and then just go back to sinning again? To know that we will do so because we are continuing in adultery?
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anp1215
Guest
Exactly. False compassion. Good analogy.
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sw85
Guest
This is all obviously a very ugly issue, but let’s clarify what’s at stake here.
First – there is no such thing as “divorce.” It’s an ontological error. It doesn’t exist, at least in the sense we use it today, i.e., as a cessation of marriage. Nothing short of death can cause a marriage to end. Note that annulment is *not *the end of a marriage: it is a recognition that no marriage ever existed.
So “divorce” amounts to a conceit whereby couples abandon their duties to one another. Those duties are real and they are objective. They do not depend on circumstances. They do not depend on our personal disposition or emotional state or finances. So “divorced” couples do not have one thing in their past they need to repent of. They have an entire, ongoing, continuing lifestyle they need to repent of. If you don’t resolve to extricate yourself from the situation inducing you to sin, you are not repentant and cannot be absolved.
So it’s not an issue of “forgiveness” (much less the Church stubbornly refusing to forgive). Neither God nor the Church can forgive an impenitent soul, or rather, an impenitent soul cannot accept the grace of forgiveness.
Which means it’s not the Church’s fault that “divorcees” feel excluded. These people have been stung because the world has lied to them about the nature of marriage (“it’s just a contract, quit any time you want!!!”), because they themselves bought into a lie. The Church didn’t invent the lie and it didn’t ask them to buy into it. It shouldn’t have to accommodate and normalize that lie. It’s not the job of truth to deform itself to accommodate the prejudices of the world. It’s the responsibility of the world to mold itself to what is true. What is true is what the Church teaches. QED.
In many cases, the solution here is for “divorced” couples to either reunite or else live chastely apart, depending on the circumstances. This is ugly and difficult in cases where there has been “remarriage” that has produced children. I don’t know the solution in that case. I do know the solution does not consist in normalizing adultery and unilaterally declaring it A-OK. Obviously the Church needs to do its part by repenting of the wretched catechesis that has allowed this situation to get out of hand (and which has turned the Church in America into a “divorce” factory and serial abetter of adultery), but that, it seems, is probably the extent of its obligation here.
First – there is no such thing as “divorce.” It’s an ontological error. It doesn’t exist, at least in the sense we use it today, i.e., as a cessation of marriage. Nothing short of death can cause a marriage to end. Note that annulment is *not *the end of a marriage: it is a recognition that no marriage ever existed.
So “divorce” amounts to a conceit whereby couples abandon their duties to one another. Those duties are real and they are objective. They do not depend on circumstances. They do not depend on our personal disposition or emotional state or finances. So “divorced” couples do not have one thing in their past they need to repent of. They have an entire, ongoing, continuing lifestyle they need to repent of. If you don’t resolve to extricate yourself from the situation inducing you to sin, you are not repentant and cannot be absolved.
So it’s not an issue of “forgiveness” (much less the Church stubbornly refusing to forgive). Neither God nor the Church can forgive an impenitent soul, or rather, an impenitent soul cannot accept the grace of forgiveness.
Which means it’s not the Church’s fault that “divorcees” feel excluded. These people have been stung because the world has lied to them about the nature of marriage (“it’s just a contract, quit any time you want!!!”), because they themselves bought into a lie. The Church didn’t invent the lie and it didn’t ask them to buy into it. It shouldn’t have to accommodate and normalize that lie. It’s not the job of truth to deform itself to accommodate the prejudices of the world. It’s the responsibility of the world to mold itself to what is true. What is true is what the Church teaches. QED.
In many cases, the solution here is for “divorced” couples to either reunite or else live chastely apart, depending on the circumstances. This is ugly and difficult in cases where there has been “remarriage” that has produced children. I don’t know the solution in that case. I do know the solution does not consist in normalizing adultery and unilaterally declaring it A-OK. Obviously the Church needs to do its part by repenting of the wretched catechesis that has allowed this situation to get out of hand (and which has turned the Church in America into a “divorce” factory and serial abetter of adultery), but that, it seems, is probably the extent of its obligation here.
This is pretty keen. What’s being asked for here is not “compassion.” It’s accommodation. Another word for that would be “indulgence.”
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Gertabelle
Guest
What are you talking about?! She’s the single mom of three teenagers – THREE TEENAGERS :bigyikes: – one of whom attempted suicide last summer! You have no idea the kind of pain this woman has been through. Yet through it all God sustained her with His grace and the love and support of her friends. I am shocked that you would pooh pooh her pain just because you can’t fanthom that pain and faithfulness to Christ can actually go hand in hand.
“…succeeded to take her divorce so well…” Really? And you accuse me of not having any compassion. Sheesh
God doesn’t call all of us to be Olympic athletes.
He does, however, call each of us to chastity according to our state in life. AND — AND — AND he gives each of us the GRACE to fulfill that to which He calls us. In other words, you can actually – get this – you can actually TRUST GOD at His word!
Well, it only takes a teeny tiny bit of research before coming on line claiming to know better than 2000 years of Church leadershipto find out that a “lack of form” annulment is always a matter of a couple forms and few days.
You have got to be kidding!!!
Celibacy easy???
I didn’t choose celibacy because I desired it. I chose celibacy because I had made the choice to have a child, and so now my God-given vocation is to be his mother – and that means making sacrifices for both his present and eternal welfare.
Left to my own inclinations, without the enormous outpouring of God’s grace, I would be back in the promiscuous lifestyle of my younger days.
Me? Have a desire for celibacy?
You are too funny!That is the excuse of our age! Chastity is too hard – boo hoo. Celibacy is the same thing as loneliness – lies. Celibacy will damage my frail psyche – nope.
And let’s be real. I am not as strong as you think, or rather, as strong as you accuse me of being.
I am a cowardly, lustful weakling who would be the downfall of many and a scandal to the Church without God’s grace. Oh wait, I already was that during the 14 years I was away from the Church. Only through the grace of the sacraments and of obedience to Christ’s Church have I lowered the need to go to confession from at least once a week. I may go once a week, but that’s no longer because I have mortal sin on my soul.
Finally, something on which we can agree. I cried uncontrollably for months. I lost weight. I gained weight. I wandered aimlessly on the days my then-3-year-old son was with his dad. The depth of pain is beyond expressing. In some ways, rejection causes a different kind of pain than death. And the woman sitting at this end of cyberland is one of those “victims of divorce” for whom you claim to have so much compassion – or is it rather, pity?
In my ignorant opinion, your whole post can be summed up as “how dare you come on this Catholic forum, defend Church teaching, and demonstrate with your life that Christ can be trusted! The nerve!”
I said nothing at all that amounts to judgment of others. I have a disgusting sordid past. I understand the sins of lust better than most faithful Catholics. My friends and I encourage each other to remain faithful to God through the sacraments and all the good works we know of and can do. We are not exceptions to the rule. We are living proof that when life sucks, God is there to pour His grace into our hearts so our hearts can heal and grow.
I stand by all I said, unless it is in conflict with the teachings of Holy Mother Church – then She’s right :thumpsup:
Gertie
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Vico
Guest
You mean of John 8:9-11?
9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee?
11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.
- Status