Buddha and his teachings

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ahimsaman72:
According to the explanation given by people such as Dr. Peter Santina, karma is the energy of one’s own actions. Karma is the moral equivalent to Newton’s “every action must have an equal and opposite reaction”. If you are doing the action the results of that action will come back to you eventually - whether in this life or the next and whether it is positive or negative. A man reaps what he sows.

For a detailed explanation by Santina and other authors, I can point you in the right direction.

Peace…

I’ve just been reading this link - which is mainly about the Eightfold Path:​

serenereflections.ca/Articles/Articles2002/TheEightfoldPath.html#TenPrecepts

It’s immensely interesting - is there a single canonical form of Buddhism, or several canonical forms of equal validity as forms of Buddhism ?

And has anyone ever tried to synthesise the notion of karma with Hindu or other types of theism ? ##
 
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dennisknapp:
Likewise, we may observe certain things and have a limited knowledge of them but this does not give us cause to start contradicting ourselves. If God IS as Christianity believes then God CANNOT be as Buddhist believe, for that would be totally irrational, meaningless.
No it just means that God is more than can be expressed in a single philosophy.
It’s not “God IS as Christianity belives” rather “Christianity sees God (in its own way).”
Also, quantum particles seem or appear to be “here” and “there” in some proportion simultaneously, but we cannot say for sure that this is the case with any certainty.
Yeah it is really well established. Were it not the MRI in your local hospital wouldn’t work. Its based on QM.
This does not mean that quantum physic is beyond the law of non-contradiction only that our ability to understand and scientific method is lacking.
You are mistaken, what it says is that fundamental truths at our scale of life break down at other scales. Cause sometimes follows after effect.
But to say that because we lack understanding and a scientific method gives us the option to speak and think contradictory things is non-sense. If this were the case everything would be meaningless.
No not meaningless, just counter intuitive. QM is very counter-intuitive. So is Relativity.
 
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ahimsaman72:
Finally, I might get some flak over my next couple of paragraphs. In Mahayana Buddhism (which Zen is a part of), a vegetarian diet is recommended for developing true compassion for all beings - animals included. After all, the goal of Mahayana Buddhism is to bring as many beings to enlightenment as possible - even putting off your own attainment of nirvana to do so. In Zen, all things have Buddha nature and are worthy of life.

I’ve been vegetarian for almost a year now because I saw this compassionate goal in Buddhism. I didn’t want to see any being suffer anymore. I didn’t want to cause the death of anything if I could help it. It’s not always possible to avoid hurting other living things. But, as far as it is possible, I try to practice harmless living. I also did it for health reasons - to be as healthy as possible.

Peace…
reading this post just brings up more questions for me. In the line of thought of heading towards perfection a person refuses to kill and animal for food…there is nothing odd about this. yet animals kill eachother for food. what does buddhism teach in terms of animal life (for example free will). but when i think about the direction and ultimate goal i dont see how a plant isnt considered equally sacred as a living animal. for example, picking a flower should be a form of murder in this light. Same for picking a fruit or veggie, it is a living thing that can reproduce, it seeks water and light for food, good soil to live in, etc.
In total “perfection” should one have to rely on food anymore? If there is anything that stands as a hinderance for the “perfect state” it is an empty belly.
 
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Tlaloc:
No it just means that God is more than can be expressed in a single philosophy.
It’s not “God IS as Christianity belives” rather “Christianity sees God (in its own way).”

Yeah it is really well established. Were it not the MRI in your local hospital wouldn’t work. Its based on QM.

You are mistaken, what it says is that fundamental truths at our scale of life break down at other scales. Cause sometimes follows after effect.

No not meaningless, just counter intuitive. QM is very counter-intuitive. So is Relativity.
Its one thing to be counter intuitive, it is quite another to be irrational.

“God is more than can be expressed in a single philosophy.” Can you not see that you are contradicting yourself? To make such a truth claim would mean that you KNOW that God is more than can be expressed in a single philosophy and therefore is not expressed soley in ONE philosophy. This is an ultimate truth claim and therefore proves the law of non-contradiction.

For in your opinion,
  1. God can not be expressed in one single philosophy.
  2. Christianity believe that God is express in one single philosophy.
Therefore, Christianity’s truth claim regarding God is false.

But you would also say Christianity’s truth claim is it true from the point of view of Christians…? How does this make sense?

You can not use the law of non-contradiction of disprove it. By using it you prove that it is true.

Also, I did not say, “God IS as Christianity believes.” I used in an argument “IF God IS as Christianity believes then God CANNOT be as Buddhist believe.” I am not saying in this argument that Christianity is true, but that IF it is true then Buddhism’s belief regarding God is false.

Peace
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## I’ve just been reading this link - which is mainly about the Eightfold Path:

serenereflections.ca/Articles/Articles2002/TheEightfoldPath.html#TenPrecepts

It’s immensely interesting - is there a single canonical form of Buddhism, or several canonical forms of equal validity as forms of Buddhism ?

And has anyone ever tried to synthesise the notion of karma with Hindu or other types of theism ? ##

Thanks for the link. I’ve never been there. The Eightfold path is an extraordinary and brilliant way of life.

There is no single form of Buddhism. There are about 18 major schools of Buddhism. All place different emphasis on different aspects. The oldest and closest is the Theravada school which emphasizes the monastic life and importance of the sangha (eastern idea of “church” with church leaders).

After Buddhism spread from India into the SouthEast Asian countries and into China and Japan, Indian Buddhism (original) meshed within the faiths of the people it was entered into. A perfect example of this is in Tibet where the Bon tradition was prevalent. When Buddhism was introduced Bon wasn’t done away with. Parts of the Bon tradition meshed with the new Buddhism and vice versa.

The Eastern cultures don’t see one way as right and all others wrong in contrast to the West. And admittedly the East has seen some of the greatest thinkers in the world. Confucius, Lao Tsu and Buddha were brilliant thinkers/philosophers. People want to assert laws of philosophy and thinking to every culture and every facet of life. It can’t be done in my opinion.

Karma is a Hindu concept. It was something Buddhism brought along with it. I don’t know if anyone has tried to synthesize it to theism, but I will say that it makes perfect sense. And, it’s not totally outside of Christianity. “A man reaps what he sows” is Biblical. If one sows destruction, destruction will come upon him. If one sows peace, own will reap peace. So, karma is not exclusive of Christian thought. The same principles are there.

Peace…
 
Catholic Dude:
reading this post just brings up more questions for me. In the line of thought of heading towards perfection a person refuses to kill and animal for food…there is nothing odd about this. yet animals kill eachother for food. what does buddhism teach in terms of animal life (for example free will). but when i think about the direction and ultimate goal i dont see how a plant isnt considered equally sacred as a living animal. for example, picking a flower should be a form of murder in this light. Same for picking a fruit or veggie, it is a living thing that can reproduce, it seeks water and light for food, good soil to live in, etc.
In total “perfection” should one have to rely on food anymore? If there is anything that stands as a hinderance for the “perfect state” it is an empty belly.
Yes, animals kill and eat each other out of necessity and ignorance. They have no other way to live their lives. Humans, on the other hand can make better choices and more compassionate choices. Nothing is “sacred” in the same respect as you may think. Everything has value.

There are sentient beings and non-sentient beings. Animals and humans are sentient (thinking - soulful). Plants, trees and rocks are not sentient. They don’t “think”. They don’t make decisions. They have no intellect. They are simply living things. Plants, trees and rocks don’t experience pain and suffer. Animals and humans feel pain and suffer.

Since we humans have to eat something (obviously) it is better to eat something that doesn’t experience pain and suffering. So, to a Zen Buddhist eating plants, grains, nuts and seeds is the most compassionate choice. I must point out that most Buddhists are not vegetarians. Theravada monks must eat whatever is handed to them by the people. Although they cannot ask someone to kill an animal to feed them.

Tibetan Buddhists are by far not vegetarians. They have no choice because the climate and environment dictate this. Plants and grains are hard to grow in the harsh conditions. However, the Dalai Lama condemns the practice of killing so many animals. In India and his own country, they would kill one large animal that could feed many people. But, for example, to kill 10 chickens to feed people is not resourceful and kills more “beings”. See what I mean? It’s a matter of lesser “evils”, not necessarily absence of “evils”.

Peace…
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## I’ve just been reading this link - which is mainly about the Eightfold Path:

serenereflections.ca/Articles/Articles2002/TheEightfoldPath.html#TenPrecepts

It’s immensely interesting - is there a single canonical form of Buddhism, or several canonical forms of equal validity as forms of Buddhism ?

And has anyone ever tried to synthesise the notion of karma with Hindu or other types of theism ? ##

Hi,

Just from off the top of my head, Buddhism split into two main divisions, Matahayama & Hinayama, having to do with how to achieve enlightenment.

One school (Matahayama - Old Man) feels that meditation alone can allow one to attain enlightenment; and the other school (Hinayama - Young Man) feels that a long scholarly study of the Sutras (Buddhist Scriptures) is the way to achieve enlightenment.

And there have been dozens of variations of this theme in Buddhism occuring over the centuries. Zen being the most well known.

A Matahayama style of Buddhism occured in ancient China called Ch’an (emphasizing severe meditation); then Ch’an went to Korea where it was called Son; and then it went to Japan in the 1200’s where it was called Zen.

All the Asian cultures added or subtracted from Buddhism to enrich it according to their customs and values, so that today Cambodian Buddhism is much different that Tibetan or Nepalnese or Mongolian Buddhism.
 
ahimsaman
There seems to be contradictions
“ There is no soul that survives “death”. There’s no transmigration of a soul into another body. There’s only consciousness.
Consciousness means to be aware of, having knowledge, the state or condition of being conscious. All definitions show conscious belongs to some being. One has to be in order to have a conscience. So who does this consciousness belong to if there is no being whether body or soul?
  1. If so how do they know what it was they did so they can correct it and next time be born into a better life?
Answer: good question. I’ve asked this myself. The view is that one’s present actions are all that is possible to determine. Let the past lie. Look to the present and make a conscious choice now to change your future. Create positive karma. You can’t change the past. You can only change right now - in the present. So, it’s kind of a moot point.
What do you mean moot point? We all learn from the past in order to improve ourselves. I know I did something wrong last week, so I try to avoid it. We must know what it was that need correcting in order to change so how can something change right now when I don’t know what needs changing in my past life. How can I change my future when I don’t know what the future will bring? So all those people that hope to reach enlightenment simply have no assurance whether they are getting close or not. So if nobody knows their past life, then Joe Blow here who claims he used to be Marie Antionette because his neck is always hurting and others who “know” what their previous life was are simply living a lie. We know we should not worry about the past, but we learn from it.
Answer: karma decides. Karma is an impersonal force or law that simply exists.
God has revealed Himself to us in a very personal way and we learn through Jesus to call God “abba” father. So how can an impersonal force or law for that matter exist. Somebody or someone has to create laws. Laws don’t just pop up by themselves. God has neither beginning nor end. He is the creator of all, even the law of gravity. A law has to be established by custom, agreement or authority. Law cannot simply exist.
When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to harm and to suffering’ – then you should abandon them… When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ – then you should enter and remain in them."
How can somebody learn by themselves without a teacher? If a child does not know the difference between right and wrong, how will the child ever learn by him or herself? Sorry but this statement from Buddha makes no sense at all.
“Love the Lord your God” would not be suitable as a Buddhist precept. Buddha didn’t speak much of gods or God. When he did, he reiterated basic Hindu concepts of gods. He saw clinging to gods as part of the problem and not the solution. He valued direct experience over perceptions of deities.
and then
You have a concept of God. That concept is inherently flawed because as a human being you can’t possibly know all of God. You know it in a certain way. So does the Buddhist. The Buddhist knows the same God in a different way.
Code:
     Our concept isnt flawed.  Simply because we are not able to comprehend God, doesnt make that understanding flawed.  “As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.” We are finite beings, with finite minds.  Only God is infinite and all knowing.
You say Buddhism does not believe in god, but now you say Buddhists know God in a different way.
Code:
One of the reasons why Christianity cannot be mixed with Buddhism is because Buddhism believes in attaining enlightenment by ourselves.  We believe Jesus Christ who is God Himself, saves us.  Also with Buddhism, if you don’t get it right the first time, well there is always a next time.  But then again, you don’t know if this is your second or whatever number chance it is. And still, you dont know what it is that you did wrong and needs correcting.  With Christianity as I stated earlier, we are born once then comes the judgment.
God Bless.
 
Kevin Walker:
Hi,

Just from off the top of my head, Buddhism split into two main divisions, Matahayama & Hinayama, having to do with how to achieve enlightenment.

One school (Matahayama - Old Man) feels that meditation alone can allow one to attain enlightenment; and the other school (Hinayama - Young Man) feels that a long scholarly study of the Sutras (Buddhist Scriptures) is the way to achieve enlightenment.

And there have been dozens of variations of this theme in Buddhism occuring over the centuries. Zen being the most well known.

A Matahayama style of Buddhism occured in ancient China called Ch’an (emphasizing severe meditation); then Ch’an went to Korea where it was called Son; and then it went to Japan in the 1200’s where it was called Zen.

All the Asian cultures added or subtracted from Buddhism to enrich it according to their customs and values, so that today Cambodian Buddhism is much different that Tibetan or Nepalnese or Mongolian Buddhism.
Hello Kevin.

All the scholarly information I’ve studied shows Mahayana and Hinayana. Mahayana means greater vehicle and Hinayana is a derogatory term meaning lesser vehicle. The greater vehicle Buddhism carries more people to enlightenment whereas Hinayana carries only oneself. Hinayana is the Theravada branch and Mahayana developed into many branches as you stated.

There is also a third main category of Buddhism which is Vajrayana which Tibetan Buddhism is a part of. Vajrayana means “diamond”. Wherever Buddhism went it was integrated into the already existing cultures and religions. Hence, there are many cultures that accept Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism alongside one another and incorporate beliefs and teachings of each other.

Just a note: Ch’an in the Chinese word for meditation while Zen is the Japanese word. So, in China, the prevalent Buddhism is Chan Buddhism while in Japan it is Zen Buddhism.

Peace…
 
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TobyLue:
ahimsaman
There seems to be contradictions
Consciousness means to be aware of, having knowledge, the state or condition of being conscious. All definitions show conscious belongs to some being. One has to be in order to have a conscience. So who does this consciousness belong to if there is no being whether body or soul?
Toby, these are difficult concepts, I understand. I can’t give you a scholarly explanation of the essence of this consciousness. It is simply a teaching of Buddhism. I could possibly point you to sites that could help if you would like.
What do you mean moot point? We all learn from the past in order to improve ourselves. I know I did something wrong last week, so I try to avoid it. We must know what it was that need correcting in order to change so how can something change right now when I don’t know what needs changing in my past life. How can I change my future when I don’t know what the future will bring? So all those people that hope to reach enlightenment simply have no assurance whether they are getting close or not. So if nobody knows their past life, then Joe Blow here who claims he used to be Marie Antionette because his neck is always hurting and others who “know” what their previous life was are simply living a lie. We know we should not worry about the past, but we learn from it.
Do you have to learn over and over again that killing is wrong? Do you have to learn over and over that lying is wrong? These are obvious and basic teachings of both Buddhism and Christianity. For determining those “in-between” actions, the fruit of actions determines what is wholesome and unwholesome. When you see the fruit of your actions leads to harmful results yo learn that those things are to be avoided.
God has revealed Himself to us in a very personal way and we learn through Jesus to call God “abba” father. So how can an impersonal force or law for that matter exist. Somebody or someone has to create laws. Laws don’t just pop up by themselves. God has neither beginning nor end. He is the creator of all, even the law of gravity. A law has to be established by custom, agreement or authority. Law cannot simply exist.
I understand the Christian concepts you speak of here. Buddhism posits these laws simply exist without determining how. Buddhism does reject the idea of a “Creator God”. In Buddhist cosmology there is the concept of gods, demons, etc. However, this is a teaching derived from Hinduism which Buddha was brought up in.
How can somebody learn by themselves without a teacher? If a child does not know the difference between right and wrong, how will the child ever learn by him or herself? Sorry but this statement from Buddha makes no sense at all.
Do you have to learn from your parents that falling off your bicycle is painful? No. Do you have to learn from your parents that kids will possibly bully you at school? No. So, your statement makes no sense to me.
and then

Our concept isnt flawed. Simply because we are not able to comprehend God, doesnt make that understanding flawed. “As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.” We are finite beings, with finite minds. Only God is infinite and all knowing.
You said it yourself - His ways are higher than our ways and thoughts higher than our thoughts. So, our concepts could very possibly be flawed given this fact.

continued…
 
You say Buddhism does not believe in god, but now you say Buddhists know God in a different way.
Buddhism doesn’t understand God as a Creator. He is not considered a personal presence, but a “ground of being” - as the base of all life. This would be “knowing God in a different way”. In the words of Thich Nhat Hanh quoting Paul Tillich - God is not a peson, but not less than a person. These are hard concepts to deal with especially when we are dealing with them superficially here.
One of the reasons why Christianity cannot be mixed with Buddhism is because Buddhism believes in attaining enlightenment by ourselves. We believe Jesus Christ who is God Himself, saves us. Also with Buddhism, if you don’t get it right the first time, well there is always a next time. But then again, you don’t know if this is your second or whatever number chance it is. And still, you dont know what it is that you did wrong and needs correcting. With Christianity as I stated earlier, we are born once then comes the judgment.
God Bless.
I don’t advocate mixing the teachings of Buddhism and Christianity. I don’t advocate a BuddhiChristianity or ChristianBuddhism. They are not the same and at their core cannot be the same. Not when we are speaking of their “systems” of thought and structure.

Yes, Buddhism focuses on achieving enlightenment by personal efforts rather than outside forces. And this distinguishes it from the rest of the world religions. The original Buddhism could be described as psychological and not really a religion. It was basically a philosophy at that point in time.

Zen Buddhism which I basically adhere to now is similar. Zen is the practice of living moment by moment. It is the simple art of living. There are Zen Christians, Buddhists and Pagans. I guess I could be classified as a Zen Christian.

People learn what is right and wrong. Their actions speak for themselves. The concept of Karma and rebirth is a difficult one. I’ve explained it in a couple of posts now and don’t see how I could add any more to what I’ve already written. I find the Buddha’s explanation of wholesome and unwholesome as plain and obvious. One doesn’t need a degree to learn what is wrong and not. Anything that harms oneself and/or others is unwholesome and creates negative/bad karma. Negative karma must be extinguished and is done through time and performing wholesome actions.

Hopefully this helps.

Peace
 
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ahimsaman72:
The Eastern cultures don’t see one way as right and all others wrong in contrast to the West. And admittedly the East has seen some of the greatest thinkers in the world. Confucius, Lao Tsu and Buddha were brilliant thinkers/philosophers. People want to assert laws of philosophy and thinking to every culture and every facet of life. It can’t be done in my opinion.

Peace…
How can this statement be true unless its opposite is false? In making this kind of statement (as you have above) you have used the law of non-contradiction.

This is like saying that the only ultimate truth is there is no ultimate truth. Does this make any sense?

People don’t assert the laws of philosophy to every culture, the law of non-contradiction asserts its self. If there were no such things as the law of non-contradiction there would be no meaning in anything we say.

If you say something can’t be done you are using the law of non-contradiction because its opposite (can be done) is impossible. Therefore, to say anything with meaning or truth one must use the law of non-contradiction whether we like it or not.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
How can this statement be true unless its opposite is false? In making this kind of statement (as you have above) you have used the law of non-contradiction.

This is like saying that the only ultimate truth is there is no ultimate truth. Does this make any sense?

People don’t assert the laws of philosophy to every culture, the law of non-contradiction asserts its self. If there were no such things as the law of non-contradiction there would be no meaning in anything we say.

If you say something can’t be done you are using the law of non-contradiction because its opposite (can be done) is impossible. Therefore, to say anything with meaning or truth one must use the law of non-contradiction whether we like it or not.

Peace
This law of contradiction could be used against even your thinking, friend. Remember the link I showed you? That person used this same law to refute the Trinity. Yet, you would say his claims are ridiculous.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
This law of contradiction could be used against even your thinking, friend. Remember the link I showed you? That person used this same law to refute the Trinity. Yet, you would say his claims are ridiculous.

Peace…
The link you speak of was never posted. I would like to see it though.

I may disagree with this fellow regarding his reasoning but I would have to see what he is saying before I would say it is rideculous.

Why is it so hard to understand that the law of non-contradiction is true when you yourself use it all the time? It just boils down to–if something is self-defeating or contradictory to reality it cannot exist.

If you want to believe contradictory things you have that right in our country, but you will not be reasonable and therefore your opinion may not be taken seriously.

In truth, I am fighting to make what you say meaningful. I am not trying to assert my opinion on you. I am trying show you that in order for what you say to have meaning there needs to be ultimate truth.

Peace
 
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ahimsaman72:
Ooops! I forgot to include the link to the site I was speaking of. Here it is:
becomingone.org/gp/gp1f.htm

Peace…
Dennis,

I forgot the link originally, then posted it. Here’s a copy of that post. This law of contradiction is based on reason - I admit that. However, this law is a conceived concept. Buddhism asserts that distinctions such as “this is this and can’t be this” is the base disease of the mind. Distinctions arise due to ignorance - not realizing the nature of all things as: impermanent, egoless, filled with suffering. To make wrong distinctions is the problem that Buddhism attempts to cure.

Peace…
 
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dennisknapp:
Why is it so hard to understand that the law of non-contradiction is true when you yourself use it all the time? It just boils down to–if something is self-defeating or contradictory to reality it cannot exist.

Peace
The reality you assert we live in is not the reality that Buddhism asserts. Buddhism asserts that what we perceive to be reality is really an illusion - a dream and not the true reality. So, matters of contradiction are not feasible. It is similar to Lao Tsu’s statement of “the name that can be named is not the true name”.

Take for example the American Idol show the other nite. People thought in reality they were good singers. Even when Simon would tell them they were horrible - they would not believe him. I’m telling you - they were horrible. But, their reality was that they were great singers and it was the panel of judges who were wrong. Perception is everything. They couldn’t be good and not good at the same time - or could they? They could be in their minds - not good in judges minds. Who is right? Our perceptions judge reality.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
Dennis,

I forgot the link originally, then posted it. Here’s a copy of that post. This law of contradiction is based on reason - I admit that. However, this law is a conceived concept. Buddhism asserts that distinctions such as “this is this and can’t be this” is the base disease of the mind. Distinctions arise due to ignorance - not realizing the nature of all things as: impermanent, egoless, filled with suffering. To make wrong distinctions is the problem that Buddhism attempts to cure.

Peace…
But to say that there are wrong distinctions is to say that there are right ones, correct?

If Buddhist assert ANYTHING they are using the law of non-contradiction by default.

If they say (and they do) that reality is an illusion they are proclaiming an ultimate truth which excludes all other beliefs regarding reality. And so by doing this they are using the law of non-contradiction. Is this clear?

To assert a truth claim is one thing. It is quite another to prove this truth claim true and therefore make it binding on all.

Reality cannot be both an illusion and a non-illusion at the same time and in the same sense because this would make the goal of escaping it meaningless.

Peace
 
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ahimsaman72:
The reality you assert we live in is not the reality that Buddhism asserts. Buddhism asserts that what we perceive to be reality is really an illusion - a dream and not the true reality. So, matters of contradiction are not feasible. It is similar to Lao Tsu’s statement of “the name that can be named is not the true name”.

Take for example the American Idol show the other nite. People thought in reality they were good singers. Even when Simon would tell them they were horrible - they would not believe him. I’m telling you - they were horrible. But, their reality was that they were great singers and it was the panel of judges who were wrong. Perception is everything. They couldn’t be good and not good at the same time - or could they? They could be in their minds - not good in judges minds. Who is right? Our perceptions judge reality.

Peace…
True, the goal then is to figure out who’s view of reality is the correct one by the use of reason and logic, which at its most basic form is the law of non-contradiction.

Peace
 
Just a thought,

Having read most of the posts on this thread and find that quickly the conversation turns to the abstract; how many in the Orient actually know the teachings of the Buddha?

I am thinking that it would seem that only the privalidged few who also had a high I.Q. would be able to profit from Buddhism. I know that in Japan the Temples (Shinto) are attended by the public only on a few days during the year. What do you have to offer?
 
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