Buddha vs Christ

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My cousin (agnostic and leaning towards Buddhism) believes the following:

1 Jesus and the Buddha both did great things.
2 Jesus is God according to Christianity.
3 Buddha is not God nor divine according to Buddhism. He is completely human.
4 Hence, Buddha is more admirable because Jesus was doing what He did just because He is God (thus no merit in it) while Buddha was a lowly human to start with (so he deserves merit).

I discussed with him about it for a bit but he is not convinced about my point that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human… But we drew the discussion to a close because we are both busy.

Any comments or advice? Thanks!
 
My cousin (agnostic and leaning towards Buddhism) believes the following:

1 Jesus and the Buddha both did great things.
2 Jesus is God according to Christianity.
3 Buddha is not God nor divine according to Buddhism. He is completely human.
4 Hence, Buddha is more admirable because Jesus was doing what He did just because He is God (thus no merit in it) while Buddha was a lowly human to start with (so he deserves merit).

I discussed with him about it for a bit but he is not convinced about my point that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human… But we drew the discussion to a close because we are both busy.

Any comments or advice? Thanks!
Before I returned to the Church I had thought about these kinds of questions too and frankly had come to conclusions not unlike your friend. In fact these types of things have been discussed within the church throughout history. The conclusions I had come to in trying to reconsile the matter did not and, still, do not fit entirely with Church teaching due to my own limitations of understanding and therefore I cannot help you a whole lot with direct advise.

Personally I would take the tack (as I did years ago) of not rejecting either. Budda, who lived long before Jesus was born, and in a land far removed from Isreal, sought “enlightement”, sought God in the best ways he knew. The Catechism, in para 847 states that:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
I think it is safe to say that the Budda would likely fit this description.
In addition, though his understandings were quite different than ours, he did try to understand and keep the “Two Great Commandments” of Love. Love God with your entire being and Love your neighbor as yourself.
So Budda, like others who sincerely sought enlightenment, was looking and building toward that which was achieved, not by man, but by the one eternal God through the incarnation of Christ.

I hope some of this helps.

Peace
James
 
My cousin (agnostic and leaning towards Buddhism) believes the following:

1 Jesus and the Buddha both did great things.
2 Jesus is God according to Christianity.
3 Buddha is not God nor divine according to Buddhism. He is completely human.
4 Hence, Buddha is more admirable because Jesus was doing what He did just because He is God (thus no merit in it) while Buddha was a lowly human to start with (so he deserves merit).

I discussed with him about it for a bit but he is not convinced about my point that Jesus is both fully divine and fully human… But we drew the discussion to a close because we are both busy.

Any comments or advice? Thanks!
Hi antoniont1: I wouldn’t want to sway your friend either way on the subject, but for informational purposes, your discussion is heading into a very complex area for westerners to understand. In the culture that the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) came from, the Buddha is considered to be the 9th Avatar of Vishnu, and Jesus is the 11th Avatar or Vishnu, meaning they are one in the same person. Avatar is actually a Sanskrit word meaning descent of God or manifestation of God. They are both considered incarnations of the sustaining aspect of God’s Holy Trinity (Vishnu) in human form, hence the same guy. It is only in cultures further east beyond the Himalayas that the idea of Buddha took on a “godless” permutation that is most well known nowadays. Anyway, in His incarnation as the Buddha, He prescribed a method that people could use for enlightenment. Many Christians use similar methods to become closer to God. My opinion (if I may) is that if your friend is already a Christian, he should just remain a Christian. If he wants to practice some Buddhist techniques on living in the moment and meditation he can still do that while being a Christian. In the meantime, if he were to really consider eastern thought seriously and comprehensively, comparing the merits of Jesus, vs the Buddha is pointless. They both had the Christ Kutashtha or Kutsashtha Chaitanya in them. My hope is that your friend will simply be a Christian who meditates. There is no need for him to change religions. Doing so on a serious level would cost of lifetime of study and effort, when your friend could use that lifetime simply to be what is already is.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
…Buddha is more admirable because Jesus was doing what He did just because He is God (thus no merit in it) while Buddha was a lowly human to start with (so he deserves merit)…
The thought of both Buddha and Christ exist to reflect a certain order of the Cosmos, and as a result of the assumption that such an order can be perceived by human reason. However, the opinion of the extent of understanding differs between the two; and your friend seems to favour Buddha’s view, whose ‘revelation’ is one which is more philosophical, and less based on belief in things which reason cannot know, but can only defend the authority of.

Thus, you must define for your friend the Catholic view on the order of all things, the capacity for humans to reason, and the extent of human knowledge. Because of my ancestors the ancient Greeks, such matters of philosophy have permeated Christian thought; and it is almost impossible to discuss such matters without resorting to asserting belief because one must, if one is not familiar with philosophy.

Personally, I would recommend that your friend read the Discourses of Epictetus, and see whether or not such a system of ethics is more what he’s looking for. This will help him determine whether he is looking for philosophy, for mysticism and ritual and practice, or for a system which combines all four.
 
Hi antoniont1: I wouldn’t want to sway your friend either way on the subject, but for informational purposes, your discussion is heading into a very complex area for westerners to understand. In the culture that the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) came from, the Buddha is considered to be the 9th Avatar of Vishnu, and Jesus is the 11th Avatar or Vishnu, meaning they are one in the same person. Avatar is actually a Sanskrit word meaning descent of God or manifestation of God. They are both considered incarnations of the sustaining aspect of God’s Holy Trinity (Vishnu) in human form, hence the same guy. It is only in cultures further east beyond the Himalayas that the idea of Buddha took on a “godless” permutation that is most well known nowadays. Anyway, in His incarnation as the Buddha, He prescribed a method that people could use for enlightenment. Many Christians use similar methods to become closer to God. My opinion (if I may) is that if your friend is already a Christian, he should just remain a Christian. If he wants to practice some Buddhist techniques on living in the moment and meditation he can still do that while being a Christian. In the meantime, if he were to really consider eastern thought seriously and comprehensively, comparing the merits of Jesus, vs the Buddha is pointless. They both had the Christ Kutashtha or Kutsashtha Chaitanya in them. My hope is that your friend will simply be a Christian who meditates. There is no need for him to change religions. Doing so on a serious level would cost of lifetime of study and effort, when your friend could use that lifetime simply to be what is already is.

Your friend
Sufjon
As I’ve said, he is not a Christian. Perhaps when I meet my cousin face to face and get to talk about religion things can clear up.

Unfortunately I do not know what kind of Buddhism my cousin (not my friend) is leaning towards… but I think (since we are Chinese) he believes the Buddha to be completely human, and not an avatar that you described (Buddhism has more different schools than Christianity en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Buddhism, at least on whether Buddha is divine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism). From what we seem to understand, pure Buddhism (that I understand from hearsay) is agnostic and Buddha being divine is an influence from other religions such as Hinduism…

Thanks for your reply.
 
Before I returned to the Church I had thought about these kinds of questions too and frankly had come to conclusions not unlike your friend. In fact these types of things have been discussed within the church throughout history. The conclusions I had come to in trying to reconsile the matter did not and, still, do not fit entirely with Church teaching due to my own limitations of understanding and therefore I cannot help you a whole lot with direct advise.

Personally I would take the tack (as I did years ago) of not rejecting either. Budda, who lived long before Jesus was born, and in a land far removed from Isreal, sought “enlightement”, sought God in the best ways he knew. The Catechism, in para 847 states that:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
I think it is safe to say that the Budda would likely fit this description.
In addition, though his understandings were quite different than ours, he did try to understand and keep the “Two Great Commandments” of Love. Love God with your entire being and Love your neighbor as yourself.
So Budda, like others who sincerely sought enlightenment, was looking and building toward that which was achieved, not by man, but by the one eternal God through the incarnation of Christ.

I hope some of this helps.

Peace
James
Thanks for your reply. My cousin, however, seems not interested about salvation, but about living virtuously… I’ll perhaps talk with him about my understanding of the similarity between Christianity and (my limited understanding of) Buddhism on moral teaching…

Antonio
 
The thought of both Buddha and Christ exist to reflect a certain order of the Cosmos, and as a result of the assumption that such an order can be perceived by human reason. However, the opinion of the extent of understanding differs between the two; and your friend seems to favour Buddha’s view, whose ‘revelation’ is one which is more philosophical, and less based on belief in things which reason cannot know, but can only defend the authority of.

Thus, you must define for your friend the Catholic view on the order of all things, the capacity for humans to reason, and the extent of human knowledge. Because of my ancestors the ancient Greeks, such matters of philosophy have permeated Christian thought; and it is almost impossible to discuss such matters without resorting to asserting belief because one must, if one is not familiar with philosophy.

Personally, I would recommend that your friend read the Discourses of Epictetus, and see whether or not such a system of ethics is more what he’s looking for. This will help him determine whether he is looking for philosophy, for mysticism and ritual and practice, or for a system which combines all four.
Thanks for your suggestion!

My cousin seems to be very interested in philosophy, so I guess a system of ethics and philosophy is what he’s looking for in Buddhism. I hope reading the Catechism (I’m about halfway through) will equip me with a better understanding of my own faith to discuss with him…

I’m sending him a Facebook message to see if he has read it =)

Antonio
 
If I could first ask, what form or school of Buddhism is he into (there are quite a number of them)? Is he leaning into %between%, Mahayana, or even the esoteric Vajrayana? Supposing that he’s into Mahayana, does he identify with Zen, Nichiren Buddhism, Pure Land, Tiantai/Tendai or everything else in between? (Living in a country where the majority of people is at least nominally Buddhist, you can’t help but have a professional interest in these things :D)

As for Śākyamuni, aka Siddhattha Gotama/Siddhārtha Gautama (there are many buddhas in Buddhism so I’ll call him by that to make things clearer), you are correct that at least in Theravada Buddhism, Śākyamuni was human, albeit endowed with the greatest psychic powers - that is, he is a sort of super-man, the supreme kind of man there is. Although the Theravada school does not emphasize the more supernatural and divine aspects of the Buddha that are available in the Pali Canon, elements of the Buddha as the supreme person are found throughout it. The Madhupindika Sutta relates thus:

Then, not long after the Blessed One (=Gotama) had left, this thought occurred to the monks: “This brief statement the Blessed One made, after which he went into his dwelling without analyzing the detailed meaning — i.e., ‘If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing to relish… that is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder’: now who might analyze the unanalyzed detailed meaning of this brief statement?” Then the thought occurred to them, “Venerable Maha Kaccana is praised by the Teacher and esteemed by his knowledgeable companions in the holy life. He is capable of analyzing the unanalyzed detailed meaning of this brief statement. Suppose we were to go to him and, on arrival, question him about this matter.

So the monks went to Venerable Maha Kaccana and, on arrival exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, they sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they [told him what had happened, and added,] “Analyze the meaning, Venerable Maha Kaccana!

[He replied:] “Friends, it’s as if a man needing heartwood, looking for heartwood, wandering in search of heartwood — passing over the root & trunk of a standing tree possessing heartwood — were to imagine that heartwood should be sought among its branches & leaves. So it is with you, who — having bypassed the Blessed One when you were face to face with him, the Teacher — imagine that I should be asked about this matter. For knowing, the Blessed One knows; seeing, he sees. He is the Eye, he is Knowledge, he is Dhamma, he is Brahma. He is the speaker, the proclaimer, the elucidator of meaning, the giver of the Deathless, the lord of the Dhamma, the Tathagata. That was the time when you should have questioned him about this matter. However he answered, that was how you should have remembered it.

Yes, friend Kaccana: knowing, the Blessed One knows; seeing, he sees. He is the Eye, he is Knowledge, he is Dhamma, he is Brahma. He is the speaker, the proclaimer, the elucidator of meaning, the giver of the Deathless, the lord of the Dhamma, the Tathagata. That was the time when we should have questioned him about this matter. However he answered, that was how we should have remembered it. But you are praised by the Teacher and esteemed by your knowledgeable companions in the holy life. You are capable of analyzing the unanalyzed detailed meaning of this brief statement. Analyze the meaning, Venerable Maha Kaccana!

According to the Canon, he was born as a human, albeit highly spiritually developed as a result of the previous lives in the career of the bodhisatta. With his attaining the bodhi (“awakening”; i.e. enlightenment), however, he perfected and transcended his human condition. When asked whether he was a deva (the closest thing to ‘gods’ in Buddhism; cf. the Hindu deva) or a human, he replied that he had eliminated the deep-rooted unconscious traits that would make him either one. He is a buddha, one who had grown up in the world but had now gone beyond it, as a lotus grows from the water but blossoms above it, unsoiled. He is such that the Canon even names him as the “teacher of the gods (devas) and humans”, superior to both in the sense of having nirvana or the greatest bliss, whereas both deva and man are still bound by desires, emotions and stuff like that (kilesa).
 
That being said, Mahayana Buddhism does have this concept of the more god-like Eternal Buddha. In some Mahayana sutras, the Buddha himself teaches that the Buddha is no longer essentially a human being but has become a being of a different order altogether and that, in his ultimate transcendental “body/mind” mode as Dharmakaya, he has eternal and infinite life, is present in all things (i.e., is “the boundless dharmadhatu”, according to the Nirvana Sutra), and is possessed of great and immeasurable qualities. The Lotus Sutra portrays the Buddha as indicating that he became ‘awakened’ countless, immeasurable, inconceivable myriads of trillions of aeons (kalpas) ago and that his lifetime is “forever existing and immortal”. Thus, from the human perspective, it would seem as though the Buddha has always existed.

Now, there is indeed no direct equivalent concept of ‘God’ (in the way we understand it) in Buddhism, a non-theistic religion, in the sense of not teaching the existence of a supreme creator god or depending on any supreme being for salvation or enlightenment. The Buddha is merely a guide and teacher who points the way to enlightenment, however the struggle for enlightenment is one’s own. While certain Mahayana texts do present a picture of the Buddha close to conceptions of godhead, it differs in that anyone can become a Buddha, as compared to general theistic religions in which it is generally considered impossible to become a god or God.
 
Hi,

One thing to remember when talking to your friend, is that Jesus was made completely human, flesh and blood juat like you and me, but without sin. Another thing to remember is that Jesus willing suffered and died for our sins so that we may have eternal life and be connected with God. Finally, out of all mankind, Jesus was the only one ever qualified to atone for mankind and is the only mediator between God and man.

I hope this helps with your discussions! All praise and glory to God!
 
Thanks for your reply. My cousin, however, seems not interested about salvation, but about living virtuously… I’ll perhaps talk with him about my understanding of the similarity between Christianity and (my limited understanding of) Buddhism on moral teaching…

Antonio
I agree that this would be quite helpful.
The fact that your cousin is interested in “living virtuously” is a good indication that the Holy Spirit is at work here. His journey may take a different path to salvation but If his desire is to live in Love then I’d say he won’t go too far wrong.

Peace
James
 
My cousin, however, seems not interested about salvation, but about living virtuously… I’ll perhaps talk with him about my understanding of the similarity between Christianity and (my limited understanding of) Buddhism on moral teaching…
I also think that emphasising similarities is a better approach than emphasising difference. As you rightly say, there is a great deal of similarity between the moral teachings of the two religions.
To avoid all evil,
to cultivate good,
and to cleanse one’s mind -
this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

– Dhammapada 14:5
to avoid evil: just follow the five moral rules of Buddhism:* avoid injuring living things.
  • avoid taking what is not given.
  • avoid sensual misconduct.
  • avoid false and malicious speech.
  • avoid intoxicants.
to cultivate good: “Love others as you love yourself.” - Bhadramayakara vyakarana sutra 91.

to cleanse one’s mind: meditate. Basic meditation is just breathing and counting to ten. More advanced meditation drops the counting. There are Buddhist meditation classes in many cities.

I do not think that there is anything in that list that is against Christianity. On the level of how people should act there is not much real difference.

As you can see from my post header, I am Buddhist

rossum
 
In the culture that the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) came from, the Buddha is considered to be the 9th Avatar of Vishnu, and Jesus is the 11th Avatar or Vishnu
Who was the 10th Avatar? The Culture that Buddha came from has many branches? Which branch teaches more then 10 Avataras?
 
4 Hence, Buddha is more admirable because Jesus was doing what He did just because He is God (thus no merit in it) while Buddha was a lowly human to start with (so he deserves merit).
Jesus is Path, Truth and Life. In Christianity you don’t have to become Christ nor to come to His platform. In Buddhism you have to become Buddha. That may be one’s original position, a true spiritual identity, but in order to get there - you must be perfect. You don’t have to be perfect in Christianity, but only to accept Jesus. Consider merits - one just setting an example, and another being the Path… Of course, Buddhism also claims Buddha to be everything the same, and beyond, but the difference in doctrines is crucial - if you only accept Buddha, nothing happens, with Christ, it makes the whole difference.

I also want to stress that doctrines are so incompatible that discussions are merely philosophical exercise. Although, on the practical platform, down among the believers, there are some similarities. There are no bells in Judaism, but there are in both Christianity and Buddhism; relics and saints they also have in common…
 
If he believes Buddha has merit over Christ because he is merely human, point him towards the lives of the saints where thousands upon thousands of mere humans easily outstrip Buddha in this regard.

John
 
If he believes Buddha has merit over Christ because he is merely human, point him towards the lives of the saints where thousands upon thousands of mere humans easily outstrip Buddha in this regard.

John
That’s a good one.
Thanks, John!

Antonio
 
Jesus is Path, Truth and Life. In Christianity you don’t have to become Christ nor to come to His platform. In Buddhism you have to become Buddha. That may be one’s original position, a true spiritual identity, but in order to get there - you must be perfect. You don’t have to be perfect in Christianity, but only to accept Jesus. Consider merits - one just setting an example, and another being the Path… Of course, Buddhism also claims Buddha to be everything the same, and beyond, but the difference in doctrines is crucial - if you only accept Buddha, nothing happens, with Christ, it makes the whole difference.

I also want to stress that doctrines are so incompatible that discussions are merely philosophical exercise. Although, on the practical platform, down among the believers, there are some similarities. There are no bells in Judaism, but there are in both Christianity and Buddhism; relics and saints they also have in common…
Hmm, I think our views might differ here a bit. I probably won’t go this far to claim that they are this different. The doctrines do not match fully, but doesn’t the Holy Spirit work in Buddhism so that they have some partial Truth? Does Buddhism not teach about virtues such as love and compassion?

By merely accepting Jesus, or Buddha, and not reply, won’t it be just the same as the case of those seeds that do not land in good soil in the Sower’s parable?

Antonio
 
Who was the 10th Avatar? The Culture that Buddha came from has many branches? Which branch teaches more then 10 Avataras?
Hi miodrag1963: The tenth Avatar of Vishnu was Krishna. There are different counts depending on who you talk to. Some do not recognize Gautama Buddha as an Avatar, and these would call Krishna the ninth, and Kalki (yet to come) would the the 10th. Those who recognize the Buddha would call Krishna the 10th and Kalki the 11th. Those who recognize the Buddha and also know of Jesus (fewer still) would call Krishna the tenth, Jesus the 11th and Kalki the 12th. Having been exposed to Christianity, I see Jesus as the 11th and final Mahavatar, but that is just me and carries no authority.

Your friend
Sufjon
 
If he believes Buddha has merit over Christ because he is merely human, point him towards the lives of the saints where thousands upon thousands of mere humans easily outstrip Buddha in this regard.
Two points. Firstly you really need to look at Saints Barlaam and Josaphat. The Buddha was a Catholic saint.

Secondly, Buddhism also has its equivalents of saints: Bodhidharma, Nagarjuna, Dogen, Hui Neng, Tsong Kha Pa etc.

rossum
 
Hi miodrag1963: The tenth Avatar of Vishnu was Krishna. There are different counts depending on who you talk to. Some do not recognize Gautama Buddha as an Avatar, and these would call Krishna the ninth, and Kalki (yet to come) would the the 10th. Those who recognize the Buddha would call Krishna the 10th and Kalki the 11th. Those who recognize the Buddha and also know of Jesus (fewer still) would call Krishna the tenth, Jesus the 11th and Kalki the 12th. Having been exposed to Christianity, I see Jesus as the 11th and final Mahavatar, but that is just me and carries no authority.

Your friend
Sufjon
Hi Hi miodrag1963: I forgot to mention in case I didn’t make it clear. My view is not a mainstream view. It would be shared by some like Sri Yukteswar, Lahiri Mahasaya and Paramahansa Yogananda. Also the exact count of which Avatar is which number isn’t so important, and depends a good deal on how one dates the events in the Mahabharata. I also believe in a number of more minor Avatars like Sri Anandamayi Ma.

Your friend,
Sufjon
 
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