Buddhism and Christianity?

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I agree. But concluding that a fundamental emptiness is desirable or the state of reality because our means of knowing is faulty seems uncalled for. Unless the emptiness or extinguishment is understood as a something exempt from known categories rather than “nothing”.
 
Desirable or not is irrelevant. We are talking about reality, not about what we would like reality to be.

The first Noble Truth is that suffering exists. That renders reality undesirable, unless we take steps to change the way we see it.
 
Suffering does not exist if there is no person, no soul, to experience it.
 
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is hears it, does it make a sound?
 
openmind77 It is true that Buddhist Japanese went along with the war, but they were not the leaders.

Sorry, but you need to do more research. Iris Chang’s book “The Rape of Nanking” insists the blame for such atrocities as the Chinese medical experiments, done without anesthesia, the rapes, the civilians buried alive, the horrifying behavior in the Philippines, was directly caused by Buddhist beliefs in no-self and the lack of belief in evil.

The other book I suggest you read is “Zen at War” by Soto Zen priest Brian D. Victoria who also argues it was mushin (the belief in no-self) that allowed Japanese soldiers to slaughter without compassion or remorse. The Japanese published books on the subject, taught these beliefs relentlessly to their young soldiers. The young soldiers, when later questioned, quoted from Buddhist teachings that it could be an act of compassion to kill, and anyway, it was only killing no-self.
 
rossum:Humans, and other living things, do have value.

Yet Buddhists believe each human is a no-self. So is a slug. And a jellyfish. So…please elaborate, of what value?
 
rossum: I will need to see the references for that.

Zen at War and The Rape of Nanking to start with.
 
annem said:
“The Rape of Nanking” insists the blame for such atrocities as the Chinese medical experiments, done without anesthesia, the rapes, the civilians buried alive, the horrifying behavior in the Philippines, was directly caused by Buddhist beliefs in no-self and the lack of belief in evil.
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I am sorry but I will need a direct quote from the book to back your claim that the atrocities were caused by Buddhist beliefs . Or a link to an article on the web that confirms your claim.
 
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annem said:
The other book I suggest you read is “Zen at War” by Soto Zen priest Brian D. Victoria who also argues it was mushin (the belief in no-self) that allowed Japanese soldiers to slaughter without compassion or remorse
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Search the web for Brian Victoria and his book, I mainly find criticisms of his methods and analysis.
 
annem said:
Yet Buddhists believe each human is a no-self. So is a slug. And a jellyfish. So…please elaborate, of what value?
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Of enough value not to be taken as slaves. The slave trade is not allowed, as part of the Right Livelihood part of the eightfold path:
“A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.”

— Anguttara Nikaya 5.177
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Contrast this with the Christian attitude to slavery, which took at least 1865 years after its founding to eliminate the practice. Using slavery as a measure, Buddhism puts a higher value on a human being than Christianity. In Buddhism a human being is not property and cannot be bought and sold.
 
Rossum: > “A lay follower should not engage in …, business in human beings ,>
> — Anguttara Nikaya 5.177

Contrast this with the Christian attitude to slavery, which took at least 1865 years after its founding to eliminate the practice. Using slavery as a measure, Buddhism puts a higher value on a human being than Christianity. In Buddhism a human being is not property and cannot be bought and sold.

I am stunned you feel this redounds to the credit of Buddhism. It does not. Once again, it is an example of Buddhist utter inaction in the face of social problems. For 2,500 years Buddhists did nothing at all about slavery, and if Christianity hadn’t existed, Buddhists appear to have been content to allow slavery forever to exist without comment.

Saying “Buddhism puts a higher value on human beings than Christianity” when Buddhism insists human beings are no-self, illusions, and of the same value as a goat or worm is not a tenable argument… Compare that to the earliest documents in Christianity which said “In Christ Jesus you are all children of God…There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus”

Even during the worst persecutions the early Christians raised money to free Christian slaves who served pagan masters. Carthage actually collected a hundred thousand sesterces in order to ransom Numidian Christians who were slaves. Then, after Constantine, the church began to attack the institution of slavery itself. St Ambrose denounced it, St. Augustine thundered it was “sin”. Two Roman prefects, Hermes and Chromatius freed all the slaves they owned on the day they were baptized - a total of about 2700 slaves.

Christianity remains the only! religion in the world to attack slavery - and it had to end slavery twice, first in the beginning of the Middle Ages. The second round in the war began in 1435 when the pope published the bull Sicut Dudum which excommunicated anyone who owned, bought or sold slaves.

This would be the first volley in a long and sad war, with Catholics steeped in mortal sin refusing to listen to the church, just as many do today regarding abortion and other issues, but a war which ended in triumph, as Christianity ended slavery in the nations under its control.
 
Christianity doesn’t seek to overthrow social institutions, it seeks to transform them. Buddhism at the fundamental level seeks the destruction of man whereas Christianity seeks the restoration of man in the Kingdom of God. In the Kingdom of God there is neither Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female. This will be fully realized at the universal resurrection of the dead, where creation will be restored.
 
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rossum: I quoted the Buddha. Show me a quote from Jesus telling His followers not to own slaves.

I am sorry, but did you imagine this makes your position better? I find it appalling, inexcusable, that in 2,500 years Buddhists have done nothing about slavery, even though Buddha indicated slavery was wrong. Whereas all the words Jesus spoke led to the eradication of slavery.

The most frequent complaint against Buddhism is its utter lack of effect, of never treating the great moral issues, ever. Two thousand five hundred years of walls enclosing monks, meditating on nothing, while around them people starved, rotted in prisons, endured cruelties and beatings as slaves, lived in misery, in unending centuries…

In the first 500 years of Buddhism, one historian could find only two hospitals to the credit of Buddhists. Two. Two, in five hundred years.

Compare this to Christianity. Even during the persecutions, every single Catholic church had a charity to feed the poor, and aid widows and even aid non Christians. During the plague, when the Roman physician Galen fled the city, Christians stayed and gave up their lives taking care of pagans.

And speaking of hospitals, pretty much the second the persecutions were over, Christians set up free hospitals. Many historians argue that St. Basil of Caesarea founded the first real hospital in the world in the mid 300s, and thereafter free medical aid was found in Christian hospitals in pretty much every city of size throughout the entire ancient Roman empire. But of course it wasn’t simply aiding the sick. Christians, for the first time in history, founded homes to take care of the deaf, the mute, and even lepers.

Look, you cannot compare the positive effect, the staggeringly constructive effect, Christianity has had upon the world to the . . . void that has been Buddhism. The Catholic church gave the world human rights. The universities. Real science. Most important of all, the morality, which utterly changed the world for the better. And, of course, hope. God will provide absolute justice to every person who suffered on this earth, will fill hearts battered by lack of love with perfect love, and God gave us eternal life, conquering the ultimate evil, death, forever. . . .
 
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First, I note your failure to produce any quote from Jesus relating to slavery. On this topic the Buddha condemned it; Jesus did not.

Second, it is easy to make a religion appear bad by looking at the worst behaviour of its followers. What about “Kill them all; God will know His own,” from the Massacre at Béziers? Christians started a civil war in America to preserve slavery. Christians have been killing other Christians over religious differences from the Wars of Religion to Northern Ireland in the 20th century.

All religions have less than perfect followers, Buddhism and Christianity included.
 
rossum said:
On this topic the Buddha condemned it;
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I just saw your quote above. I’m not sure if we can demonstrate that Siddhartha Gautama himself spoke these words, but St. Paul did condemn the slave trade in I Timothy 1:10
10 for those who commit fornication or sin against nature, the slave-dealer, the liar, the perjurer. All this and much else is the very opposite of the sound doctrine
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It’s also rather polemic and speculative to assign a superior attitude towards the slave trade in Buddhism vs. Christianity, considering many Buddhist countries did not abolish slavery until they were pressured by western colonial powers.
 
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Neithan said:
It’s also rather polemic and speculative to assign a superior attitude towards the slave trade in Buddhism vs. Christianity, considering many Buddhist countries did not abolish slavery until they were pressured by western colonial powers.
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And one Christian country needed a civil war.

As I said, you can find bad actions by the adherents of any religion.
 
Dum Diversas was earlier, 1452, and allowed slavery. Nicholas V was Catholic, not Protestant.
 
[Neithan. It’s also rather polemic and speculative to assign a superior attitude towards the slave trade in Buddhism vs. Christianity, considering many Buddhist countries did not abolish slavery until they were pressured by western colonial powers.

Very true
 
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