Buddhism and Hegel

[annem]

Rossum

No. Nobody ‘judges’; you appear to be thinking along Abrahamic lines here. Does gravity “judge” whether something is to fall or not? All I can do is to choose my actions. Once I have done that, then I have to deal with the consequences: good, neutral or bad. There is no judging going on

I am afraid I am having a lot of difficulty understanding. On one hand, you say you have a consciousness that can choose right or wrong. But what defines right or wrong?

God bless, Annem

 

[thinkandmull]

The act cannot be separated from its consequences; there is no Buddhist equivalent of the forgiveness of sins. All actions bring consequences, which may be good, neutral or bad.

That will generally fall under causing injury to a living thing or under sensual misconduct.

rossum

There may be nobody besides humans involved in forgiving each other for their failings, however that doesn’t mean there can’t be in Buddhism a sense that something is bad beyond the mere fact that it has bad consequences. If you can cite Buddhists Scriptures that disagree, I believe you, and also will be done with Buddhism

 

[rossum]

I am afraid I am having a lot of difficulty understanding. On one hand, you say you have a consciousness that can choose right or wrong. But what defines right or wrong?

While the Buddha was alive, there was a group of people called the Kalamas, living in North India. When they saw the Buddha they explained their problem to him. Lots of preachers visited them, and each preacher said, “I am right; all the other preachers are wrong.” They were confused because they didn’t know which preacher to follow.

The Buddha answered:

“Yes, Kalamas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

– Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya, 3.65

Or, to put it more succinctly, “You will know them by their fruits.”

rossum

 

[rossum]

I am afraid I am having a lot of difficulty understanding. On one hand, you say you have a consciousness that can choose right or wrong. But what defines right or wrong?

We choose between wise or unwise actions. Wise actions lead to consequences that we want. Unwise actions lead to consequences that we do not want.

We also need to study the implications of the consequences. Drinking a lot of alcohol may lead to short term happiness on the evening in question; however the consequences on the morning after are not so pleasant. We need to be careful about which goals we aim for, considering all the consequences.

rossum

 

[annem]

rossum

We choose between wise or unwise actions. Wise actions lead to consequences that we want. Unwise actions lead to consequences that we do not want.

So, I assume then you are a pantheist. Of which variety? Do animals suffer through reincarnation or only humans?

God bless, Annem

 

[rossum]

So, I assume then you are a pantheist.

No, you assume incorrectly.

Do animals suffer through reincarnation or only humans?

Gods, asuras, humans, animals, pretas and hell-beings all reincarnate, and may be reincarnated in a different group the next time round.

Asuras equate the the Greek Titans, while pretas are part of Indian mythology. These days, asuras are usually lumped in with the gods, and pretas are mostly ignored. We may be reborn in a heaven (gods and asuras), on an earth (human and animal) or in a hell (pretas and hell-beings).

rossum

 

[annem]

rossum

So, I assume then you are a pantheist.
No, you assume incorrectly.

Okay then, if you are not a standard pantheist, what variant of pantheism/etc do you believe to be true? Something must be judging. What’s running the reincarnations?

God bless, Annem

 

[rossum]

Okay then, if you are not a standard pantheist, what variant of pantheism/etc do you believe to be true? Something must be judging. What’s running the reincarnations?

The reincarnations run themselves. They are built into the universe in the same way that gravity is built into the universe. Karma is just part of the way the universe runs.

All we can do is to work with the grain to get the best results for ourselves.

rossum

 

[annem]

Rossum

The reincarnations run themselves.

Hmm. Do you seriously believe that nothing is deciding if a worm is a good worm and deserves a bump up the evolutionary scale? That nothing fashioned the universe and the planets and set the big bang in motion? That nothing will decide if you finally get to achieve your ultimate goal, death?

God bless, Annem

 

[rossum]

Hmm. Do you seriously believe that nothing is deciding if a worm is a good worm and deserves a bump up the evolutionary scale? That nothing fashioned the universe and the planets and set the big bang in motion? That nothing will decide if you finally get to achieve your ultimate goal, death?

Gravity is not nothing. Karma is not nothing. Neither gravity nor karma are gods, but equally they are not nothing.

As to my ultimate goal, it is not death. Death is inevitable once you are born. The trick is to avoid being born. That is my goal, to avoid being reborn. Death is easy, you just have to be born and you get death thrown in for free, automatically. The difficult part is to avoid being born.

Buddhism is not an Abrahamic religion, so a lot of assumptions common in those religions do not apply.

rossum

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There is no saviour God in Buddhism. The Buddha achieved enlightenment by himself; we are told to do the same.

rossum

And how did the Buddha know there is no savior God?

Isn’t that why Buddhism has a reputation for being atheistic?

After all, if Buddhists gods can safely be ignored, why bother even having them?

 

[annem]

rossum

Gravity is not nothing. Karma is not nothing. Neither gravity nor karma are gods, but equally they are not nothing.

I agree. Of course they are not nothing. On the other hand, you have no explanation for how reincarnation works. If worms become dogs who become humans, how is this accomplished? If you have no explanation other than it simply does, doesn’t this cast grave doubts on reincarnation? Who set it up? And why?

Why were you given a brain that reasons?

God bless, Annem

 

[GodMadeMe]

The reincarnations run themselves. They are built into the universe in the same way that gravity is built into the universe. Karma is just part of the way the universe runs.

All we can do is to work with the grain to get the best results for ourselves.

rossum

Rossum. What does the Buddhist mean when they say “i am God”. What do they mean by God?

 

[rossum]

And how did the Buddha know there is no savior God?

Because he attained nirvana by his own efforts, without the intervention of any god/s. Having attained nirvana he preached how to do it for yourself for the next 45 years until he died.

He knew that a human being could attain nirvana by his or her own efforts because he had done exactly that by his own efforts.

Isn’t that why Buddhism has a reputation for being atheistic?

Quite probably. If you want to win the lottery, then by all means pray to the god of your choice. That sort of thing the Buddha will not be able to help you with.

After all, if Buddhists gods can safely be ignored, why bother even having them?

For people who want to win the lottery.

rossum

 

[rossum]

I agree. Of course they are not nothing. On the other hand, you have no explanation for how reincarnation works.

If you want to understand how reincarnation works, then read Chapter Thirteen of the Visuddhimagga, which explains how to remember your past lives.

If worms become dogs who become humans, how is this accomplished? If you have no explanation other than it simply does, doesn’t this cast grave doubts on reincarnation?

You have no explanation for the origin of the Abrahamic God. Do you have “grave doubts”?

Who set it up? And why?

You are making Abrahamic assumptions again. There is no “who”.

Why were you given a brain that reasons?

Ask my parents, I inherited my brain from them. A scientist will probably be able to point you to at least some of the genes that code for the construction of a brain.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Rossum. What does the Buddhist mean when they say “i am God”. What do they mean by God?

I have never said that. You would have to ask the Buddhist in question. It might be a reference to our ability to influence our futures by our actions in our current lives.

rossum

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Because he attained nirvana by his own efforts, without the intervention of any god/s.

rossum

You are certain of this how?

Certainly if Buddha claimed this he was the most arrogant of men.

If he didn’t claim it, how do you know he achieved it?

 

[rossum]

You are certain of this how?

Certain? No, very few things are certain. I believe it because he said it, because others of his followers did the same thing, following his instructions, and they said so as well. Ever since then, other Buddhists have also attained nirvana and have said so (albeit quietly).

That is ample evidence for me.

You may believe that God takes people to heaven, but nobody alive now is in heaven. There are people alive now who have attained nirvana.

The Buddha’s methods work.

rossum

 

[Bahman]

Certain? No, very few things are certain. I believe it because he said it, because others of his followers did the same thing, following his instructions, and they said so as well. Ever since then, other Buddhists have also attained nirvana and have said so (albeit quietly).

That is ample evidence for me.

You may believe that God takes people to heaven, but nobody alive now is in heaven. There are people alive now who have attained nirvana.

The Buddha’s methods work.

rossum

How could Buddha be so sure about gaining nirvana before his death? You apparently become sure when you experience the life after death.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Certain? No, very few things are certain. I believe it because he said it, because others of his followers did the same thing, following his instructions, and they said so as well. Ever since then, other Buddhists have also attained nirvana and have said so (albeit quietly).

That is ample evidence for me.

You may believe that God takes people to heaven, but nobody alive now is in heaven. There are people alive now who have attained nirvana.

The Buddha’s methods work.

rossum

Please give the quote and source where the Buddha says he achieved nirvana.

Thank you.