Buddhism Dialogue at our church

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary, are you a Catholic in a larger than religious sense, or do you claim to be a Roman Catholic? You sound more like the former. It is very rare for me to read things on here and say, "Wow. I like that. It is accurate as far as I can tell! You appear to have a deal more patience with… well you are more patient than I am. I admire that.

Thank you very much Sochi: I agree with much of what you say as well. I am a Roman Catholic to be specific, although I have been called a heretic a few times. I maintain that I’m not.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Sochi]

Thank you very much Sochi: I agree with much of what you say as well. I am a Roman Catholic to be specific, although I have been called a heretic a few times. I maintain that I’m not.

Thanks,
Gary

Well, let there be more like you, then. After decades of considerations about the Church from a position it officially tends to disdain, I am very inclined to think that your take on most things is way closer to the Original as He meant it. My compliments.

 

[Matthew_Light]

the people, Saints, Sages, or whatever who hold my attention and inspire me are simply so filled with love, awe, and wonder, that the ideas of heaven and hell are irrelevant.

I see things this way: heaven is inspiration by the Holy Spirit. To be so full of God’s love that it shines from you on every person you see and meet like a lamp on fire is a lofty station of heaven indeed.

 

[Auntie_A]

Seriously?
You never cease to amaze me, PJM. I fail to see the use of this “acid test” other than for producing fear and vinegar. How could it be otherwise? Nowhere do I see the notion of Good for its own sake in any of that, or even as a result of that. To me, they take attention out of the immediate moment and divert energy to hypothesizing about a speculative future, when good can be done now by being present and circumspect. Really, the people, Saints, Sages, or whatever who hold my attention and inspire me are simply so filled with love, awe, and wonder, that the ideas of heaven and hell are irrelevant. What is the point of these in your considerations? Do your really think out “will this be rewarded or punished?” What an awkward gymnastic that must be! "Will this enhance my experience of love, and uplift what appears as another? " That would seem much simpler, more immediate, and a far more useful standard. But I guess each to his own needs. Peace be on you.

Listen children: I will take Patrick’s “acid test” over any poisonous Kool-Aid, sweet as it sounds. The reason we have this forum is to search for the Truth and Love. But to search one’s own navel for Truth without reason, tradition, experience, and consequences is the true folly.

The Great Saints and Sages had great and deep love and compassion but were not afraid of rules, commandments, and the thought of heaven and hell. St Francis of Assissi, St Teresa of Avila, St (Padre) Pio, for example, all honored orthodoxy to Christian tenets. They prayed inward AND outward and participated in the Sacraments of the Church that we still use today. They sometimes had to reject their own “brilliance” and “genius” in order to put their truths to the test.

Love, awe, and wonder are empty words without the realization of God’s goodness, power, balance, and consequences. Try raising a child without consequences! It is serious abuse and neglect to not show them the worldly and afterlife consequences of our actions. God loves us and wants us to know what is at stake.

It has been the light and fuzzy talk of unity, love, and truth without any connection to the weight of the natural world of gravity, consequence, and yes, even punishment that has made me cringe in this thread. We are children and creatures of God. We are capable of great things. But we need some rules, guidelines, to scale the heights meaningfully and successfully.

If the Catholic Church wishes to maintain its focus on tradition AND truth, that does not make us separatists or against unity. Christ taught us love and forgiveness, but he also modeled orthodoxy, the Law, Righteous indignation, morality, discernment and a strong sense of consequences for wrong actions.

 

[Sochi]

Listen children: I will take Patrick’s “acid test” over any poisonous Kool-Aid, sweet as it sounds. The reason we have this forum is to search for the Truth and Love. But to search one’s own navel for Truth without reason, tradition, experience, and consequences is the true folly.

Sorry, I don’t recall saying anything to contradict Truth or Love. And who are you speaking to about searching on’es own navel? And believe me, I am very much in favor of experience and know that there are only consequences. I even have a regard for tradition in many ways, but clearly, there are aspects of that which hinder one being present in a moment your tradition doesn’t cover.

The Great Saints and Sages had great and deep love and compassion but were not afraid of rules, commandments, and the thought of heaven and hell. St Francis of Assissi, St Teresa of Avila, St (Padre) Pio, for example, all honored orthodoxy to Christian tenets. They prayed inward AND outward and participated in the Sacraments of the Church that we still use today.

Yes. I have great admiration for all of them.

They sometimes had to reject their own “brilliance” and “genius” in order to put their truths to the test.

And therein may lie tragedies.

Love, awe, and wonder are empty words without the realization of God’s goodness, power, balance, and consequences.

I wouldn’t say it quite that way, but yes.

Try raising a child without consequences!

I wouldn’t dare, and didn’t. Living is only consequences.

It is serious abuse and neglect to not show them the worldly and afterlife consequences of our actions. God loves us and wants us to know what is at stake.

In a way, but I couldn’t put it that way. I know I did, but learned better.

It has been the light and fuzzy talk of unity, love, and truth without any connection to the weight of the natural world of gravity, consequence, and yes, even punishment that has made me cringe in this thread.

Well, I’m sorry you suffered that, but I hope you don’t think that came from me, though I never found punishment, and its handmaiden, fear, to be much of a motivator.

We are children and creatures of God. We are capable of great things. But we need some rules, guidelines, to scale the heights meaningfully and successfully.

Well yes, of course. I couldn’t do my art, or other work or my music without those. Never mind math!

If the Catholic Church wishes to maintain its focus on tradition AND truth, that does not make us separatists or against unity. Christ taught us love and forgiveness, but he also modeled orthodoxy, the Law, Righteous indignation, morality, discernment and a strong sense of consequences for wrong actions.

I’d just say consequence, period. Maybe you know why.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Tigg]

I normally do not like to post to threads I have not entirely read. Being sick the past few days, I’ve not had much computer time, but I will respond to a couple of posts because I simply must and will eventually get to the rest of the dialogue:

Buddhists do not believe in God nor in being saved nor in having a saviour.

Therefore, you have answered the essential point in the OP. What possible good could come from the Basilica in initiating this dialogue as this belief system is absolutely contra to the Catholic faith and could harm the spiritual growth of weak Catholics?

Sikhs and Zen Buddhists speaking in Catholic Churches encourages mutual understanding. But trying persuade them that they are wrong and you are right is counterproductive.

What is it that Catholics need to understand about Sikhs and Buddhists, other than the very essential recognition that they, too are made in the image and likeness of God and we must love them as our brothers and treat them with the utmost dignity? They believe what they believe (I’ll leave the apologetics to someone else, unless asked) and I will secretly pray for them to come to know and accept Christ.

 

[Tigg]

I wonder how many Christians would care much about Christ if there was no promise of heaven and no threat of hell. If Christ said “love one another, but when you’re dead you’re dead” how crowded would the churches be? To be honest, I think many if not most Christians do their best simply for attainment of rewards and avoidance of punishment, and to be even more honest, a domesticated dog is capable of the same. If anyone is inclined to take exception to that, I would ask that they make sure they are in truth doing better than that before objecting. I just want some honest dialog on this point.

Are you as a Catholic actually rejecting the entire premise of our existence? That God made us to know, love and serve Him in this life in order to live in eternity with Him? You see, for the true Christian it is all about discovering just WHO this God is in His Sacredness and Absolute Goodness and that He made us for Himself out of flawless love (because actually, He really doesn’t need us at all.)

Feeling that we are ugly and sinful is not necessarily a prerequisite for introspection and a desire to be good and to love others. It is possible to see ourselves as beautiful and good and deserving of love while at the same time doing our best to grow. How many people, I wonder, go through life missing the opportunity to live fully because they have been taught that they are by nature worthy of less?

Aahhh…here is the illusion that takes a life-long journey to destroy. We are to live in reality……in the true and innermost self, so that our soul both recognizes our sinful nature and fights to do better, while simultaneously seeing our infinite worth in the eyes of the one Who counts – GOD! - regardless the lies of unworthiness we have been told about ourselves and the harm done to us by others.

 

[Sochi]

I normally do not like to post to threads I have not entirely read. Being sick the past few days, I’ve not had much computer time, but I will respond to a couple of posts because I simply must and will eventually get to the rest of the dialogue:

Here’s hoping that you feel better very soon!

Therefore, you have answered the essential point in the OP. What possible good could come from the Basilica in initiating this dialogue as this belief system is absolutely contra to the Catholic faith and could harm the spiritual growth of weak Catholics?

That Buddhists believe there is no God is a little simplistic. This is a common perception though, because what is meant is that, at least as non dualism and some forms of Buddhism understand, there is no personal God in the sense that the Abrahamic religions postulate. So Buddhism is what is termed an descending form of religion, while the Abrahamic religions are ascending in form.

There is some literature from Catholics that tend to justify the two. A prime current example is Bernadette Roberts. Thomas Merton goes in that direction. And a reading of the great Catholic mystics read in an entirely different way if one understands the sense in which Buddhists say there is no god, as do the words of Jesus.

The ideas that Maurice Nicoll put forth about the levels of language in His parables and understanding of His miracles go towards confirming that as well.

What is it that Catholics need to understand about Sikhs and Buddhists, other than the very essential recognition that they, too are made in the image and likeness of God and we must love them as our brothers and treat them with the utmost dignity? They believe what they believe (I’ll leave the apologetics to someone else, unless asked) and I will secretly pray for them to come to know and accept Christ.

Well said. I have no doubt you have a valid apologetic in this regard. I’m guessing that everyone who isn’t Catholic has theirs as well, regarding all other faiths! (But of course, “mine” is right! )

 

[Tigg]

Listen children: I will take Patrick’s “acid test” over any poisonous Kool-Aid, sweet as it sounds. The reason we have this forum is to search for the Truth and Love. But to search one’s own navel for Truth without reason, tradition, experience, and consequences is the true folly.

The Great Saints and Sages had great and deep love and compassion but were not afraid of rules, commandments, and the thought of heaven and hell. St Francis of Assissi, St Teresa of Avila, St (Padre) Pio, for example, all honored orthodoxy to Christian tenets. They prayed inward AND outward and participated in the Sacraments of the Church that we still use today. They sometimes had to reject their own “brilliance” and “genius” in order to put their truths to the test.

Love, awe, and wonder are empty words without the realization of God’s goodness, power, balance, and consequences. Try raising a child without consequences! It is serious abuse and neglect to not show them the worldly and afterlife consequences of our actions. God loves us and wants us to know what is at stake.

It has been the light and fuzzy talk of unity, love, and truth without any connection to the weight of the natural world of gravity, consequence, and yes, even punishment that has made me cringe in this thread. We are children and creatures of God. We are capable of great things. But we need some rules, guidelines, to scale the heights meaningfully and successfully.

If the Catholic Church wishes to maintain its focus on tradition AND truth, that does not make us separatists or against unity. Christ taught us love and forgiveness, but he also modeled orthodoxy, the Law, Righteous indignation, morality, discernment and a strong sense of consequences for wrong actions.

Auntie A:

:tiphat:

Thank you!

 

[Tigg]

If we are looking to attain a higher consciousness, we need to start with being truthful and honest. And if we are truthful and honest, the only reason we can say that we as Catholics are right and everyone else is wrong is because we have been taught to believe we are right, just as everyone else is taught the same about their faith traditions.

Our only higher “consciousness” comes from the Creator and I challenge your perception about being taught. I have not been taught (with a qualifier as explained below)……my faith comes from conviction via the Spirit that my finite knowledge is just that, and an infinite intelligence is showing me the truth about the reason for my existence. Yes, I have studied my faith with the vehicle of my reason which has brought me to the precipice of faith. Faith, which is freely given to me by God if I can only *assent *with the aid of grace to the infinite knowledge.

If there was anything definitive one way or the other, there would be only one belief tradition.

Not true, my friend, absolutely not true. God has given us total freedom to reject His truth even to the point of creating our own gods.

But instead there are many, and each believes they have the truth,

This is the essence of moral relativism. Because I believe in my own truth there is nothing objective. My subjectivism becomes my reality and I am unable to break through and touch the reality outside of myself.

Again, you are worrying about who is saved and who is not. I think you are worried about the wrong things. I think we should ask ourselves about our motives. Would we love Jesus if He couldn’t save us? Do we love the people who suffer everyday because of our sins in the same way and to the same extent that we love the one who died for them? If the answer is no, then I am suggesting that we don’t know Christ.

Now I do believe you are hitting upon something very essential. There was a saint who basically said the same thing. (If anyone remembers their name, please speak.) That even if heaven were not promised to her, she would still love the Lord and follow Him. That is very rare to truly know and acknowledge and succumb to such a Love and pray to God that we could even possibly come close to this!

Good thread! Gotta go for now. May each be blessed today!

 

[Sochi]

Originally Posted by Gary Sheldrake
I wonder how many Christians would care much about Christ if there was no promise of heaven and no threat of hell. If Christ said “love one another, but when you’re dead you’re dead” how crowded would the churches be? To be honest, I think many if not most Christians do their best simply for attainment of rewards and avoidance of punishment, and to be even more honest, a domesticated dog is capable of the same. If anyone is inclined to take exception to that, I would ask that they make sure they are in truth doing better than that before objecting. I just want some honest dialog on this point.

My favorite atheist has said that “I would be an *** to waste this one life doing harm to anyone, and I would only benefit from enhancing the life of others. This world, this Universe, both are overwhelming wonders! I want to preserve its beauty, promote knowledge and understanding of how it works, and improve the lives of all whom I know.” there is no fear of death or extinction in him (he’s tasted death, so I don’t doubt him,) and he needs no reward beyond the satisfaction of doing the best good he can. What’s wrong with that?

I see, for my part, that an understanding of consequence is far more useful than the concepts of future reward or punishment. The law of reciprocity can be understood to cover all of our thoughts, words, and deeds. And speaking of those, somehow we need to account for the myriad random thoughts that come to each one. Are we really dealing solely (ha-ha) with angels and demons and God? A minimum of self examination will reveal how it happens that we grow up not far from the tree we fell from, why we turn often into our parents, and how those jingles and slogans magically take over a portion of our day.

And really, the ordinary civil dictums for taking care of business are sufficient for commandments. What is at question is the governance of desire and the sense of self. And this is where in my experience and opinion Buddhism, Zen, and non dualism excel. When did you last hear of a Buddhist starting a war? Or a cabal of Zen practitioners descending on a village of Muslims or Catholics? And most people haven’t even a clue as to what non dualism is about, because those people absolutely blend in and work pretty much in secret. Heck, they usually don’t even believe there is work to be done, thereby de-fusing all sorts of potential mayhem.

Worship God? What do you do that isn’t an act of worship? How many have experienced the utter peace and silence of just being present? Hopefully many have. But is that a denominational experience while you are in it? No. It just IS. Your habitual thinking about it later may put it in a category it can’t fit into. If you have had such an experience, was it on your mind to go break a commandment when you came out of it? I would bet that rules, regs, tenets and dogmas were about the last thing in your mind or heart. There was only embracing presence, such as Tigg recommended we have for our brothers ans sisters. Problem? Yes. There was no need to pray for them. They are already perfectly where they need to be to learn what is needed.

The prime thing here is not a matter of denomination and its conceptual delineations of pedigree and paradigm structure. Love is a functional virtue operating in the moment at hand. It really doesn’t give a hoot about your denomination or naming itself as being a particular brand. “Lets do some Muslim Love” “Hey, we’re into Protestant Love” "Wow, did you see that couple save those people from the burning car? They must be doing Catholic Love! " Attribute it as a mental concept how you like, yet it is just what it is, regardless of any labeling. The labeling tells about your limits, not about Love. And that may be, as well, where people mistake the Christ.

Fact is, if you operate from ego, and limit that ego to being a denominational one, the likelihood of harm is far greater. Ego is fear and restriction. It is the inherent sense of separation which prayer, contemplation, and meditation, ie the interior life, tends to overcome. And that is always a matter of greater inclusion of others as self. If you want to think of that in terms of your religious framework fine. But in fact it isn’t limited to that, and you lose by keeping it there. And how that works might just be explicated a bit by that Buddhist monk!

 

[Sochi]

…This is the essence of moral relativism. Because I believe in my own truth there is nothing objective. My subjectivism becomes my reality and I am unable to break through and touch the reality outside of myself. !..

This is the big bugaboo error of “Western” thought disproven both by physics, logic, and deep introspection. Interestingly, the concept that there is an “objective” reality is a subjective perception. What has happened, perhaps, is that you have incorrectly or inadequately applied your vehicle of reason by already limiting it to pre verbal and cognitive assumptions inherent both in English and in your mind. Further work will reveal that pure Subject is real, and object is only conceptual and conceptual only. I can recommend some books on the process, if you wish. Yes, I know. I balked horribly at that idea, and reacted in disbelief. Fact is, though, upon inspection it is true. See for yourself.

 

[nmgauss]

What is it that Catholics need to understand about Sikhs and Buddhists, other than the very essential recognition that they, too are made in the image and likeness of God and we must love them as our brothers and treat them with the utmost dignity? They believe what they believe (I’ll leave the apologetics to someone else, unless asked) and I will secretly pray for them to come to know and accept Christ.

 

[nmgauss]

What is it that Catholics need to understand about Sikhs and Buddhists, other than the very essential recognition that they, too are made in the image and likeness of God and we must love them as our brothers and treat them with the utmost dignity? They believe what they believe (I’ll leave the apologetics to someone else, unless asked) and I will secretly pray for them to come to know and accept Christ.

The main themes in Christianity include worshipping Jesus and being saved with subthemes of humans being created in God’s image. Buddhists are concerned with eliminating suffering. Who created them and their image in the likeness of God are minor themes which have little meaning.

How can you be concerned about young people being led astray by a potentially conflicting orientation, when there is no conflict. If gods exist in Buddhism they are more likely to be fickle inconsequential persons, and merit little attention. This is in distinct contrast with Christianity which ranks Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit as supreme.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

This is the big bugaboo error of “Western” thought disproven both by physics, logic, and deep introspection. Interestingly, the concept that there is an “objective” reality is a subjective perception.

Very true Sochi.

 

[Sochi]

Very true Sochi.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Tigg; Are you as a Catholic actually rejecting the entire premise of our existence?

Good Evening Tigg: I am simply a Catholic living his existence as fully as I am able. I do not pretend to know the premise of existence, nor do I think it’s necessary to know. We don’t need any schooling or training in existing anymore than we need instruction on how to make our hearts to beat or to breathe. We just do it, don’t we? You know that. What more do you need to know about all this?

That God made us to know, love and serve Him in this life in order to live in eternity with Him?

I think people should take care to examine closely what it is they think they love and to be very sure that what they love is not an abstract.

You see, for the true Christian it is all about discovering just WHO this God is in His Sacredness and Absolute Goodness and that He made us for Himself out of flawless love

I agree, however, I would rely more on my personal direct experience with God in the matter of knowing who God is. Again, we should take care that what we love is not an abstract. I say this again, because the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God is knowable as a live physical and spiritual presence right here and right now. If we don’t see God right here and right now, we need to start looking.

(because actually, He really doesn’t need us at all.)

I think I am both loved and needed.

Aahhh…here is the illusion that takes a life-long journey to destroy.

The question, I wonder, is who is having the illusion.

We are to live in reality……in the true and innermost self,

Who is your true innermost self, Tigg? Where is your innermost self? Were does it reside? What is it’s nature? How much does it weigh? Where precisely do you take yourself to be, and what is it that you think you are, Tigg?

so that our soul both recognizes our sinful nature and fights to do better, while simultaneously seeing our infinite worth in the eyes of the one Who counts – GOD! - regardless the lies of unworthiness we have been told about ourselves and the harm done to us by others.

I wonder who has been telling us the lies of unworthiness you say that we have been told about ourselves? In just the prior paragraph they seem to have given you the notion that you are not needed. But you know that you are needed. Without you there is no experience of the world. Without you there is no experience of God. Someone else’s experience of the world and of God is of little use to you. It should be apparent that they don’t even exist without you. You are the means by which you come to know God, and ***you are the enabler by which God comes to know and love you. ***Without you, none of it happens. The relationship you have with God is codependent. We are not worthless, and insofar as our sinfulness is concerned, I have to believe that we are made by That which is good, from goodness, goodness comes.

Thank You,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Tigg: Our only higher “consciousness” comes from the Creator and I challenge your perception about being taught. I have not been taught (with a qualifier as explained below)……my faith comes from conviction via the Spirit that my finite knowledge is just that, and an infinite intelligence is showing me the truth about the reason for my existence.

Good Evening again Tigg: You have been taught what Catholics believe by Catholics and therefore you are a Catholic. Muslims have been taught what Muslims believe by Muslims, and therefore they are Muslims. Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists have been taught what Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists believe by Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists and therefore they are Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists . And most all of them are certain that they are being shown these things by the same infinite intelligence that you are certain you are being guided by.

Yes, I have studied my faith with the vehicle of my reason which has brought me to the precipice of faith. Faith, which is freely given to me by God if I can only *assent *with the aid of grace to the infinite knowledge.

Faith is the domain of all who have it, yet not all who have it agree on what it is they have faith in.

Not true, my friend, absolutely not true. God has given us total freedom to reject His truth even to the point of creating our own gods.

I think God is revealed to all earnestly who look for God, and whatsoever you find when you look for God is God. No two people know God or see God in precisely the same way, and anyone who sells you one image over another is simply selling you an image of their own making.

This is the essence of moral relativism. Because I believe in my own truth there is nothing objective. My subjectivism becomes my reality and I am unable to break through and touch the reality outside of myself.

Good is good relative to evil. It is through evil that good is known. The same is true for light and dark and all gradations in between. God is the source of both ends and all that lies in between. There is peace in this. There is havoc in denying it.

Now I do believe you are hitting upon something very essential. There was a saint who basically said the same thing. (If anyone remembers their name, please speak.) That even if heaven were not promised to her, she would still love the Lord and follow Him. That is very rare to truly know and acknowledge and succumb to such a Love and pray to God that we could even possibly come close to this!

I am certain heaven is never known by those who do not find this sort of love.

Good thread! Gotta go for now. May each be blessed today!

Bless you too -today and always.

Thank You,
Gary

 

[Taurks]

This is the big bugaboo error of “Western” thought disproven both by physics, logic, and deep introspection. Interestingly, the concept that there is an “objective” reality is a subjective perception. What has happened, perhaps, is that you have incorrectly or inadequately applied your vehicle of reason by already limiting it to pre verbal and cognitive assumptions inherent both in English and in your mind. Further work will reveal that pure Subject is real, and object is only conceptual and conceptual only. I can recommend some books on the process, if you wish. Yes, I know. I balked horribly at that idea, and reacted in disbelief. Fact is, though, upon inspection it is true. See for yourself.

But doesn’t saying “everything is 100% subjective” claim a truth which, since it’s true regardless of our opinion, can only be called “objective”?

(And doesn’t that, consequently, prove that objective truths must exist?)

 

[Matthew_Light]

Good is good relative to evil. It is through evil that good is known. The same is true for light and dark and all gradations in between. God is the source of both ends and all that lies in between. There is peace in this. There is havoc in denying it.

"I am the Lord, and there is none else: there is no God, besides me: I girded thee, and thou hast not known me:

That they may know who are from the rising of the sun, and they who are from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is none else:

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things." - Isaiah 45:5-7