Buddhism

[elts1956]

Hello, I just read on another thread that toward the end of his life, Thomas Merton promoted the idea that some of the practices of Buddhism could be implemented into Catholic practice. Not having read any of his books to any extent, I am wondering if this is true. And if true, what would be the problem with Catholics including some of these practices in daily living:

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances." Atisha.

The above seems to dove tail nicely with Catholicism???

But I am not at all knowledgeable about Buddhism, or its practices, so perhaps someone does know what it is about these practices that is so abhorrant to the Catholic Church?

I got the above info. from religioustolerance.org

Thanks.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The above seems to dove tail nicely with Catholicism???

**These maxims are part and parcel of Eastern Christian spirituality, and I don’t see anything that would conflict with Western Christianity in them. Doubtless similar things were said by Western saints.

Consider St. Francis’s prayer, “Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace…”**

 

[Ruthie]

As a Latin Rite Catholic, I have to disagree. The problem is that God is nowhere mentioned! “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Matt 6:33 (KJV)

Now for a few disagreements:

*The greatest precept is continual awareness. *

No, the greatest precept is “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” (Matt 22:37-40 RSV)

*The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything. *

The greatest medicine is the fullness of faith.

*The greatest magic is transmuting the passions. *

We do not practice magic!

*The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
*
Bilge. the greatest generosity is *agape *love - which is not detached. Was Jesus detached when He went through His sorrowful Passion?
*
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind. *

The greatest goodness is Jesus Christ.
*
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go. *

Uh-uh. When we meditate, if we empty ourselves, it is to fill ourselves with God.
*
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.*

There’s some wisdom in that, but it’s not the greatest wisdom. I think the greatest wisdom is summed up in 1 Cor 13.

Ruthie

 

[elts1956]

As a Latin Rite Catholic, I have to disagree. The problem is that God is nowhere mentioned! “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Matt 6:33 (KJV)

Now for a few disagreements:

*The greatest precept is continual awareness. * Mustn’t we have continual awareness of God in order to have this love?

No, the greatest precept is “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” (Matt 22:37-40 RSV)

*The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything. * As you said below, we must first empty ourselves from attachments in order to fill ourselves with God and faith.
The greatest medicine is the fullness of faith. Yes.*The greatest magic is transmuting the passions. *

We do not practice magic! But can’t we enjoy the magic of the spirit and God’s gifts? Unless we become as little children we shall not enter the kingdom of God. You are being too specific.
*The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
*
Bilge. the greatest generosity is *agape *love - which is not detached. Was Jesus detached when He went through His sorrowful Passion? Agape is detachment from the personal. It is much easier to love at a distance rather than even family and friends.
*
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind. * Doesn’t knowing and accepting Christ give us a peaceful mind?
The greatest goodness is Jesus Christ.
*
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go. *

Uh-uh. When we meditate, if we empty ourselves, it is to fill ourselves with God. Isn’t that letting go of all the baggage first?

**The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.

There’s some wisdom in that, but it’s not the greatest wisdom. I think the greatest wisdom is summed up in 1 Cor 13.

Ruthie

 

[Ahimsa]

As a Latin Rite Catholic, I have to disagree. The problem is that God is nowhere mentioned!

“God” is an English word. Siddhartha Gautama did not speak English.

 

[reggieM]

Some of the teachings of Buddhism are compatible with Catholicism. This is true of Mormonism, Islam, Protestantism, Judiasm, and even some pagan tribal religions. But how does it help us to know that? The concern is that Buddhism is not compatible with Catholicism in some very significant ways. This is what Fr. Merton did not make clear enough in his writings.

The greatest achievement is selflessness.

No, the greatest achievement is union with the One God – the Blessed Trinity. Selflessness, without God, is atheistic.

The greatest worth is self-mastery.

The greatest worth is Christ. We master ourselves to become one with Him. Self-mastery on its own is a human activity that is found in pagan religions. It’s a mental and physical exercise that can be done without the love of God.

The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.

We should seek to serve others, but we must love God first. Otherwise, we are in danger of idolatry of others.

Buddhism does include the worship of false gods. This is very dangerous.

The greatest precept is continual awareness.

That is only a partial truth. Awareness of what?

The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.

Emptyness without Christ is not a medicine. It is the power of God that fills us. Emptyness is important but it’s only a step on the path.

Buddah did not know of Christ and he did point to some very essential spiritual preparation that each person can practice. But it’s incomplete and with the worship of Buddhist divinities there is idolatry also, as in paganism.

As mentioned above, God and the love of God is not mentioned in these teachings. This is why many who consider themselves to be Buddhist, also consider themselves to be atheist.

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

Thomas Merton (of blessed memory) was very instrumental in my embracing of contemplative Catholicism and my eventual embracing of Orthodox Hesychasm.

Buddhist Monasticism shares a great deal with the pursuit of virtue and it should be respected and admired for it’s techniques at achieving this but we should be clear that ‘every’ major religious practice has methods it nurtures within it’s faith for those who pursuit virtue.

What I would say is that Buddhists and Christians pursue the virtues for very different reasons… one to escape the passions and sin in repentance and the other to escape maya for a higher reality (nibbana). One to seek the Will of God and they other to achieve one’s own liberation from delusion.

 

[elts1956]

Some of the teachings of Buddhism are compatible with Catholicism. This is true of Mormonism, Islam, Protestantism, Judiasm, and even some pagan tribal religions. But how does it help us to know that? The concern is that Buddhism is not compatible with Catholicism in some very significant ways. This is what Fr. Merton did not make clear enough in his writings.

No, the greatest achievement is union with the One God – the Blessed Trinity. Selflessness, without God, is atheistic.
But don’t we have to be selfless to attain this union and increase this union? So which comes first, the selflessness, or the union?

The greatest worth is Christ. We master ourselves to become one with Him. Self-mastery on its own is a human activity that is found in pagan religions. It’s a mental and physical exercise that can be done without the love of God. Self mastery ie. the will and ability to try to follow Christ’s path of devotion and selflessness. It leads us to God.

We should seek to serve others, but we must love God first. Otherwise, we are in danger of idolatry of others. We could not serve others without loving God first. Although I had a very dear friend who claimed to not believe in God, but was an excellent servant, ie. soup kitchens etc.

Buddhism does include the worship of false gods. This is very dangerous. I’m not proporting the worship of other gods, but only the use of those tenants of Buddhism which could lead to our being more spiritual and better Catholics.

That is only a partial truth. Awareness of what?
Awareness of God, ourselves and our place in the world.

Emptyness without Christ is not a medicine. It is the power of God that fills us. Emptyness is important but it’s only a step on the path. As I said, we must first be empty “of ourselves” in order for God to fill us.

Buddah did not know of Christ and he did point to some very essential spiritual preparation that each person can practice. But it’s incomplete and with the worship of Buddhist divinities there is idolatry also, as in paganism. Again, not proporting we worship any being but our G_D.As mentioned above, God and the love of God is not mentioned in these teachings. This is why many who consider themselves to be Buddhist, also consider themselves to be atheist.

That is true, I have read somewhere that Buddhists do not believe in God. They do believe in reincarnation. Who they think does the reincarnating, I don’t know.

 

[elts1956]

Grace and Peace,

Thomas Merton (of blessed memory) was very instrumental in my embracing of contemplative Catholicism and my eventual embracing of Orthodox Hesychasm.

Buddhist Monasticism shares a great deal with the pursuit of virtue and it should be respected and admired for it’s techniques at achieving this but we should be clear that ‘every’ major religious practice has methods it nurtures within it’s faith for those who pursuit virtue.

What I would say is that Buddhists and Christians pursue the virtues for very different reasons… one to escape the passions and sin in repentance and the other to escape maya for a higher reality (nibbana). One to seek the Will of God and they other to achieve one’s own liberation from delusion.

Thanks.
This makes sense.

 

[strngrnrth]

As a Latin Rite Catholic, I have to disagree. The problem is that God is nowhere mentioned! “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Matt 6:33 (KJV)

Now for a few disagreements:

*The greatest precept is continual awareness. *

No, the greatest precept is “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” (Matt 22:37-40 RSV)

*The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything. *

The greatest medicine is the fullness of faith.

*The greatest magic is transmuting the passions. *

We do not practice magic!

*The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
*
Bilge. the greatest generosity is *agape *love - which is not detached. Was Jesus detached when He went through His sorrowful Passion?
*
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind. *

The greatest goodness is Jesus Christ.
*
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go. *

Uh-uh. When we meditate, if we empty ourselves, it is to fill ourselves with God.
*
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.*

There’s some wisdom in that, but it’s not the greatest wisdom. I think the greatest wisdom is summed up in 1 Cor 13.

Ruthie

Good answers.
I was a Buddhist for a while when I was younger. Like many friends and at least one family member, I found out that the Four Noble Truths aren’t true. Since they are the foundation of Buddhism, out went Buddhism. Whether life is suffering is a matter of opinion, whether desire is the source of suffering is a matter of semantics, but ending desire wouldn’t end suffering even if it were possible and following the Eightfold Path would not be likely to end desire even if it were possible on our own.

 

[joseph_virgen]

the most intelligent of all the angels, fallen or not, is satan. he promotes theologies that on the surface appeal to those who are rooted in christianity. he is the master and father of lies. he loves it when people are irked with doubt.

if you hunger, eat what is true.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hello, I just read on another thread that toward the end of his life, Thomas Merton promoted the idea that some of the practices of Buddhism could be implemented into Catholic practice.
Thanks.

please link or quote a source from his own writings if you wish to make this claim.

if you want a Thomas Merton thread, there is one ongoing (notable in the annals of this forum for its lack of Christian charity).

If you want a buddhism thread, which your title suggests, why not leave Merton out of it and stick to your topic? a search on This Rock on the home page will bring up some excellent articles as well, rebutting the entire notion that Buddhism and Christianity are somehow compatible.

here is the quick search result
catholic.com/search.asp?query=Buddhism

 

[Ruthie]

Me:
the greatest generosity is *agape *love - which is not detached. Was Jesus detached when He went through His sorrowful Passion?
Elts:
Agape is detachment from the personal. It is much easier to love at a distance rather than even family and friends.

Easier is not always better. “Easier” is frequently seen as “patronizing” by its recipients. “Here you go, you lesser beings. I, the great and spiritually superior one, am donating my leftovers to you.” I prefer, “There, but for the grace of God go I; I could be in your shoes. Since I am not, please let me share some things with you.”

I do not want to be detached from my husband and family.
*
OP:
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind. *
Elts:
Doesn’t knowing and accepting Christ give us a peaceful mind?

Not always. It has caused me to make some tough decisions. But knowing Christ is much more important than having a peaceful mind. Doing His will, no matter how hard, is the greatest goodness. Did Jesus have a peaceful mind when He was praying in Gethsemani?

I have known two people who converted to Buddhism. What I noticed was a sudden increase in a certain kind of selfishness. One, without notice, gave up an important ministry to work on achieving nirvana. (I didn’t know her, just her ministry.) The other changed to where all she cared about was how things affected her. That was all she talked about. She stopped reaching out. There was no more “give and take” with her. In “emptying” herself and becoming “unattached,” she let go of a large circle of friends, including me.

Thanks to them, and a few other Buddhists in my life, I have come to the conclusion that Buddhism is spiritually selfish.

Catholicism asks us to become more involved in our world, not less.

Ruthie, ranting a bit

 

[reggieM]

Catholicism asks us to become more involved in our world, not less.

Another important distinction is that Catholicism teaches that we are saved and brought closer to God through the Community (which is the Church). There is an important mystical and contemplative spirituality in Catholicism for the individual to pursue, but ultimately, the contemplation is part of the community. Additionally, through the sacraments we receive power from God – a power that transcends what our own efforts can produce. Buddhism teaches that we can overcome our passions through our own efforts (although it’s a denial of effort and desire really).

Catholicism teaches that our desires are only evil when they’re not directed to God. In fact, through prayer we increase our desire and “passion” for God – to fulfill His will and reach others in a missionary spirit of service.

In Buddhism, the individual gains enlightenment. There is no communal worship of God as we have in the Sacrifice of the Mass.

While there are some similarities, and Fr. Merton tried to explore those similar teachings, there are some major differences.

 

[elts1956]

please link or quote a source from his own writings if you wish to make this claim.

if you want a Thomas Merton thread, there is one ongoing (notable in the annals of this forum for its lack of Christian charity).

If you want a buddhism thread, which your title suggests, why not leave Merton out of it and stick to your topic? a search on This Rock on the home page will bring up some excellent articles as well, rebutting the entire notion that Buddhism and Christianity are somehow compatible.

here is the quick search result
catholic.com/search.asp?query=Buddhism

Puzzleannie, I don’t claim Buddhism and Catholicism are compatible. I had always admired Thomas Merton. I suppose I didn’t make my first post clear. I was really concerned that someone was bashing TM for no reason. I do think some of the practices, such as selflessness, self awareness etc. are useful practices on which to meditate.

Also I am making no claim other than I read that Thomas More was in to other esoteric studies toward the end of his life. Unfortunatley I can’t quote the thread I read about it on.