buddhism

[Marc1152]

It seems to me that if a person regrets not being with God, then there is something of repentence there–
And if there is repentence, then I believe that person would not be in hell, since God does not send anyone to hell—we send ourselves and I think the way to get there is to be completely unrepentant about something in our lives that we know is abhorent to God…

Well… I think we are putting a fine point on something beyond our knowledge. But the theory is that after you die it is too late to repent. If you reject God during your life, you set your place by that action in the afterlife.

The more people are athiest, the less likely they are to believe is an afterlife. Many Buddhist sages talked extensively about an afterlife. Nichiren for instence even gives direction where to go to meet him after you die. He gives instructions as the which “Gallery” in the Spritual Mountain
( Ryojusen, i.e. The Pure Land ) to find him.

 

[notself]

Well… I think we are putting a fine point on something beyond our knowledge. But the theory is that after you die it is too late to repent. If you reject God during your life, you set your place by that action in the afterlife.

The more people are athiest, the less likely they are to believe is an afterlife. Many Buddhist sages talked extensively about an afterlife. Nichiren for instence even gives direction where to go to meet him after you die. He gives instructions as the which “Gallery” in the Spritual Mountain
( Ryojusen, i.e. The Pure Land ) to find him.

Theravada you just keep wandering from one life to the next unless you expend the effort to become enlightened. Then the Unconditioned.

 

[Marc1152]

Theravada you just keep wandering from one life to the next unless you expend the effort to become enlightened. Then the Unconditioned.

Define the word “YOU”…

 

[notself]

Define the word “YOU”…

Skandhas (Sanskrit). Khandhas (Pali)

But then you knew that din’t you.

It can also be used as a social convention as you in everyday speech. This is the you that wanders on.

 

[Marc1152]

Skandhas (Sanskrit). Khandhas (Pali)

But then you knew that din’t you.

It can also be used as a social convention as you in everyday speech. This is the you that wanders on.

LOL… Not what I was going for…

I am Marc… “Marc” does not go on after death… Marc’s karma, his actions and effects continue on and either add more karma to this bundle or refine it ( enlightenment)… But YOU dont go on.
It’s a little sad IMHO.

 

[notself]

That is true, the current “personality” does not go on. But think how your skillfull acts might make things easier for the next personality.

I have had a very fortunate life. Some of that was my doing, but a lot of it was the doing of previous personalities. Stretching back throughout time has been the consciousness stream, the Bhavangha. It goes forward in time until enlightenment.

 

[Marc1152]

That is true, the current “personality” does not go on. But think how your skillfull acts might make things easier for the next personality.

I have had a very fortunate life. Some of that was my doing, but a lot of it was the doing of previous personalities. Stretching back throughout time has been the consciousness stream, the Bhavangha. It goes forward in time until enlightenment.

I think we have to remember that these are all theories. Just because we beleive something does not make it so, even if it helps us.

I think there is lots of evidence that the specific person survives death, not just their energy/Karma.

Are you familiar with near death experiences? The person seems to retain their soul and personality.Here is a good site www.near-death.com

Before my wife died, we had always talked about doing something specific ( I will spare you the exact details) to let the other one know that they had survivied death. Well by golly, she did it not long after her death. I prayed to her and asked her to do it again to be certain and it happened again a few days later ( our pre-agreed upon sign) .

A bundle of Karma couldnt have done that.

 

[notself]

I think we have to remember that these are all theories. Just because we beleive something does not make it so, even if it helps us.

I think there is lots of evidence that the specific person survives death, not just their energy/Karma.

Are you familiar with near death experiences? The person seems to retain their soul and personality.Here is a good site www.near-death.com

Before my wife died, we had always talked about doing something specific ( I will spare you the exact details) to let the other one know that they had survivied death. Well by golly, she did it not long after her death. I prayed to her and asked her to do it again to be certain and it happened again a few days later ( our pre-agreed upon sign) .

A bundle of Karma couldnt have done that.

Some Mahayana say that the “personality” lingers a while after death in a place called Bardo. It could stay there for 45 days. Have you heard of Bardo?

 

[Marc1152]

Some Mahayana say that the “personality” lingers a while after death in a place called Bardo. It could stay there for 45 days. Have you heard of Bardo?

Yes, you have a good point. maybe she was in the bardo ( the second sign wasl beyond 45 days as I recall) . But still , the being that reincarnates is a different person than you are. In Christianity, the same person goes on forever and eventually is rejoined to the same body. You are you. You are created and have eternal life. The idea of personhood is much different in the Far East than in the West.

 

[notself]

Yes, you have a good point. maybe she was in the bardo ( the second sign wasl beyond 45 days as I recall) . But still , the being that reincarnates is a different person than you are. In Christianity, the same person goes on forever and eventually is rejoined to the same body. You are you. You are created and have eternal life. The idea of personhood is much different in the Far East than in the West.

Yes very true.

Bardo is over 49 days in the Tibetan tradtion. Would that cover the second sign? I am no certain if the being takes rebirth in bardo or stays there until a suitable rebirth is available.

There is no Bardo in Theravada. Rebirth is instantaneous. One could be reborn in another plane of existance for a brief lifetime and then die and get reborn again.

 

[Marc1152]

Yes very true.

Bardo is over 49 days in the Tibetan tradtion. Would that cover the second sign? I am no certain if the being takes rebirth in bardo or stays there until a suitable rebirth is available.

There is no Bardo in Theravada. Rebirth is instantaneous. One could be reborn in another plane of existance for a brief lifetime and then die and get reborn again.

I cant remeber exactly… Maybe.

But I am pretty certain she is still around.

 

[Ahimsa]

There is no Bardo in Theravada. Rebirth is instantaneous.

Is the idea of a Bardo inherently incompatible with the idea of instantaneous rebirth?

Could a Bardo be seen as a realm of existence, just like the other heavens, hells, and physical universes? If so, one could be Theravadically ‘instantaneously’ reborn in a Tibetanic Bardo.

 

[notself]

Is the idea of a Bardo inherently incompatible with the idea of instantaneous rebirth?

Could a Bardo be seen as a realm of existence, just like the other heavens, hells, and physical universes? If so, one could be Theravadically ‘instantaneously’ reborn in a Tibetanic Bardo.

I don/t know. Tibetan Buddhism developed about the same time as Mahayana which was around 100 BC to 100 AD… So I am not sure if Tibetan Buddhism influenced Mahayana or if Mahayana influenced Vajrayana (Tibetan) on the concept of Bardo.

Bardo is not a realm of existence in Theravada. Theravada was in Sri Lanka around 250 BC, before the development of Mahayana and Vajrayana. However, one can “view” other realms through Theravada Meditation.

Perhaps your wife is in Theravada plane of existence which is why you could still “feel” that she is around. Perhaps she is now in one of the Deva Realms.

• The Immaterial World (arupa-loka). Consists of four realms that are accessible to those who pass away while meditating in the formless jhanas.
• The Fine-Material World (rupa-loka). Consists of sixteen realms whose inhabitants (the devas) experience extremely refined degrees of mental pleasure.** These realms are accessible to those who have attained at least some level of jhana and who have thereby managed to (temporarily) suppress hatred and ill-will. They are said to possess extremely refined bodies of pure light. The highest of these realms, the Pure Abodes, are accessible only to those who have attained to “non-returning,” the third stage of Awakening. The Fine-Material World and the Immaterial World together constitute the “heavens” (sagga).
• The Sensuous World (kama-loka). Consists of eleven realms in which experience — both pleasurable and not — is dominated by the five senses. Seven of these realms are favorable destinations, and include our own human realm as well as several realms occupied by devas.** The lowest realms are the four “bad” destinations, which include the animal and hell realms.

 

[notself]

Ahimsa,

I was addressing my post to Marc1152. I didn’t notice that it was your post. Not very mindful of me.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[notself]

Marc1152,

I have just listened to my second audio of Our Life In Christ.

Have you listend to any of these audios by Bhikkhu Bodhi?

bodhimonastery.net/talks_audio.html

Just as Our Life in Christ gives information about the ancient Orthodox tradition, Bhikkhu Bodhi’s audios give information about the ancient Theravada tradition.

I have listened to two audios from the OLC series on Revelations and it is nice to hear that like the Roman Church, the Orthodox does not believe in taking Revelations literally. I had know idea how many times the end times have been predicted in Christian history. Fascinating.

 

[Marc1152]

Marc1152,

I have just listened to my second audio of Our Life In Christ.

Have you listend to any of these audios by Bhikkhu Bodhi?

bodhimonastery.net/talks_audio.html

Just as Our Life in Christ gives information about the ancient Orthodox tradition, Bhikkhu Bodhi’s audios give information about the ancient Theravada tradition.

I have listened to two audios from the OLC series on Revelations and it is nice to hear that like the Roman Church, the Orthodox does not believe in taking Revelations literally. I had know idea how many times the end times have been predicted in Christian history. Fascinating.

This is very nice of you to do. I have not listened yet but I will this weekend.
Have you ever read the book “What the Buddha Never Taught” by Timothy Ward? He went to live in a Theravada Forest Monetary some years ago and the book tells all about his experiences there. He also has another book that is titled something like “The Great Dragon’s Fleas”, which tell some further adventures with Theravada Buddhism.

www.ourlifeinchrist.com

 

[notself]

This is very nice of you to do. I have not listened yet but I will this weekend.
Have you ever read the book “What the Buddha Never Taught” by Timothy Ward? He went to live in a Theravada Forest Monetary some years ago and the book tells all about his experiences there. He also has another book that is titled something like “The Great Dragon’s Fleas”, which tell some further adventures with Theravada Buddhism.

www.ourlifeinchrist.com

I have read a review of the Timothy Ward book. He was a journalist as I understand it. He did seem shocked on how tough the life is. Well, why did he think monks are so revered in Buddhist countries? Even if they aren’t perfect, and few are, the life is tough. And this what the Buddha taught in the vinaya. I read the review on Amazon of both books and they seem to be very interesting.

Here is a short online book written by a Forest Monk (Theravada). It is called The Autobiography of a Forest Monk by Ajahn Thate. Timothy Ward was lucky to be in a monastery. The book is an interesting history of a monk’s life from his birth in 1902 to just before his death in 1994. Now the much of the remaining large tracts of old growth forests left in Thailand are those under the control of the Forest Monks. It really captures the life in Thailand at the turn of the century.

accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/thate/thateauto.html#for

In one of his YouTube lectures, Ajahn Brahm talks about going home to visit his mum. He remarks on how luxurious the seats on the plane seemed to him.

By the way, what do Orthodox do in their observations of Lent?

 

[Marc1152]

By the way, what do Orthodox do in their observations of Lent?<<

Vegan fast for about 50 days prior. The first three days a special canon of repentance is read. Some people fast the first couple of days totally ( as in no food at all). Then there is forgiveness Sunday where everyone lines up around the Church and you go to each person and say “Please forgive me for any offense I have given you this last year” and the other person says " God forgives and I forgive".

There is then a Wednesday evening Liturgy each week of Lent with the theme of repentance. Lights are kept low.

The whole things builds up to Holy Week where you pretty much live in Church the entire week. Every day there is a long service. Holy Friday there is a procession around the outside of the Church carrying a burial tomb.

On Great and Holy Saturday, many people are Baptized ( by full triple emersion). Sat. Night everyone comes back at about 11pm. At midnight there is another procession around the outside of the Church by candle light. The Priest then goes up to the Church Door and pounds on it. They swing open and the Church is no longer dark but full of lights. People shout “Christ is Risen” usually in several different languages. Then the Liturgy starts and ends at about 3 am. Then there is a breakfast ( Literally) where people break the fast and eat the foods they have abstained from during the fast.

Many return for “Bright Monday” for one last Liturgy to decompress.

In Jerusalem, the Bishop goes into the tomb at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher with unlit candles. He is searched beforehand by neutral parties ( Israeli usually) and the tomb is searched. He goes in to pray and after a bit the candles light by themselves. Often candles that believers in the crowd are holding light on their own. The fire is taken around the room and some candles are taken on to airplanes and flown back to Russia or Greece and other places to light the Church’s there. it is called the Miracle of the Holy Light. You can find a video of it on You Tube.

 

[notself]

Marc,

That is just plain beautiful.

Did you ever observe Uposatha as a Buddhist? They are celebrated by laypeople every two weeks. I don’t observe them as often as I should. It is something I’m working on. I think it would be easier to observe them if I weren’t the only Buddhist in town.

I was planning on going to a retreat for 5 days in Little Rock but my surgery intervened. Uposatha would have been observed then.